ARE LED`S THE FUTURE OF LIGHTING?

Badbeams3

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 28, 2000
Messages
4,389
Are LED`s really the future of lighting? If so which company is the best one to invest in? How soon could one expect this form of lighting to become main stream?

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by KenB on 12-16-2000 at 09:19 AM</font>
 
The big problem is the manufacturing cost right now. I think the biggest manufacture of lighting units is Color Kinetics at http://www.colorkinetics.com/
A light from them will run you about $450, but would easily light up a room in any color you desire and last much longer than fluorescent. I personally don't know if power used by LED's will ever beat fluorescent in lumens/watt, but I am sure they said the same thing when compact fluorescents first came out. They used to be $50 for a 28watt. Only time will tell.

Nichia and Panasonic I think are the 2 big names in the LED's themselves.

Brock - http://www.uwgb.edu/nevermab/led.htm
 
There seems to be some misconceptions regarding LEDs. In particular their efficiency. Paul Mathews and Doug Klipstein both have info on their sites about this subject. Paul writes,

"With the current state of the art, incandescent bulbs actually put our more visible light per watt than most LEDs. So, if you want white light or if you don't care about color of illumination, incandescents are somewhat more efficient than any combination of LEDs,"

Flourescent light are actually the most energy efficient light source. So, I wouldn't invest in LED companies with the hope that they will be the answer to energy efficient light lighting.

I guess the reason we get so much longer life out of our LED flashlights is because they are putting out less, but perhaps more efficiently distributed, light than standard flashlights. Either that or the low voltage of a flashlight does not allow an incandescent bulb to operate efficiently.

I am definitely no expert on this subject. These are just my theories.

RonM
 
Ok, here is my THEORY, it is only my theory. It is true that incandescent bulbs actually put our more visible light per watt than most LEDs, but you don't need most of those lumens to do the same job. Part of the reason LED's seem so bright is they put out a very narrow spectrum of light. So with an incandescent light you get everything from infrared (below visible light) to ultraviolet above visible light, and everything in between. Now LED's put out a spike of visible light, whether it is blue, red, orange or what ever color. So it doesn't use as much power because it is such a small area of light. Someone explain to me if the white ones put out an even spectrum of light or just a couple of spikes.

Ok, hummmm, the way I figure it, it would be like if you wanted to water a flower in your lawn. Now if it rains you have a lot more water than you need but the flower would be watered and so would your house (infrared) and so would the street (ultraviolet), this is like an incandescent. A LED light is like walking over to the flower with a watering can and just watering the flower, still the same amount of water. Does that make since?

It is true thought that if you make a LED light really bright you will use almost the same amount of power. Take the Trek 7 for example it is using 300ma of power. Well a 300ma halogen lamp would be close. LED's are so much more durable and last so much longer than incandescent. You also get the advantage of the color temperature remaining the same instead of yellowing as the batteries die.

Feel free to tell me I am crazy

Brock
 
>bump<

Here's a current UCBerkeley lab page on LEDs -- commenting that while we're using them, we don't yet understand how they work:

"Although we have these LEDs on the market, we don't understand fundamental issues in how they work," Weber says. ....
The difficulties lie deep in the atomic structure of the semiconductor, Weber explains. ...Weber and his team use ... state-of-the-art arsenal of nanotechnological tools — to better understand how the structure and chemistry of the quantum wells may affect the efficiency and brightness of the light generated by the LEDs.

"We can analyze the key parameters and go back to the growers of the semiconductors and suggest changes, enabling them to fabricate improved devices," says Weber, who collaborates on the research with industrial partner Lumileds. .....

http://www.coe.berkeley.edu/labnotes/1002/led.html

Links there to his UCB research group's home page and other info.
 
Originally posted by KenB:
How soon could one expect this form of lighting to become main stream?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a way, LEDs are already about as main stream as they're likely to get for a while. The big market for the kind we have seen in flashlights appears to be street lights.

See Why LEDs have 10x the efficiency of incandescent in traffic lights

So...they are already pretty mainstream. Selling one or a few at at time for flashlights must be pretty small potatos compared with traffic light use. There's a lot of traffic lights out there and a lot of LEDs per light!
 
Ken---I doubt that any of the companies that are currently developing these LED's will Rule The World of lighting.
Let's be honest with ourselves: the white LED is only half a step beyond a laboratory curiosity. White LED's are not a mass market item (as can be seen from Luxeon's inability to bring out a 5 Watter that will last more than 500 hours).
It is quite likely that the LED will not be viable replacements for 120V lightbulbs for 5 to 10 years.
Even if the technology is perfected, we must consider that billions of dollars have been spent on existing fluorescent and incandescent light fixtures and factories to build the bulbs for them.
Just because the LED may turn out to be superior technology does not mean that it will be adopted in the mainstream.
Lucent and HP/Compaq and Motorola made the best telecommunications technology in the world and they all seem to be struggling to survive.
The best mass-market chance for LED's (beyond flashlights, of course) exists in the automotive world.
---Marc
 
Even though LEDs aren't yet much more efficient than good quality incandescents, they require less power to cast a "viable" light which gives them the equivalent of greater efficiency.

Though no EE, I'm inclined toward Brock's "theory"

Brightnorm
 
The conversion of Lumens per Watt:

Incandescent 8
LED 24
Flourescent 40

A normal incandescent light bulb wastes a lot of energy in heat

But an FL tube is also a consumption process, after a while the gasses inside the tube are used up and the tube is no longer to work anymore - it "flickers"

There is also waste in the Ballast, and there are problems when you dim the tube - heaters have to come on to maintain the arc

I worked in the lighting industry for 15yrs

Mike
www.inretech.com
 
CUrren-generation LED's have 2 big advantages. They can be dimmed without a loss of efficiency (indeed, a GAIN for most of the cycle), and they last longer than whatever they're mounted in.

Personally, I label any LED that can't last 500hrs a POS. For non-flashlight use, anyway. Ever notice how many lights a car has? turn signals, brake and marker lights, map-lights, the roof light, any courtesy lights. Replace everything but the headlights with LED's, and you'd never have to worry about being pulled over for a burned-out light, or having to disassemble half the car to replace a %$#^ dome/courtesy light.

LED's have one other advantage- meaningless for flashlights, but important for cars. They turn on in (literally) nanoseconds. A normal bulb takes 1/10 of a second, a LED takes 1/100,000,000 of a second or less. That can make for a big difference in the reaction-time of a driver behind you when your nice LED brake-lights come on.
 
Being a (new) manufacturer (adventurer?) of solid state illumination products, I must contend that LEDs will NOT replace all of what we consider mainstream lighting. LEDs will be a niche player for some time to come yet. For most cases, if you're attempting to replace HID, fluorescents (including CCFL), the result will be far less than satisfactory and extremely costly to boot.

So, where would LEDs best be utilized?

- For one, in hard-to-access places. A lightbulb, be it PL, incandescent, or halogen, is relatively cheap to buy. REPLACING it may be a totally different story altogether - think swimming pools, ponds, high places, heavy-traffic areas and other downright dangerous or inconvenient locations. These situations demand a high-maintenance cost due to the danger/difficulty in the LABOUR, not the replacement part itself.

- Colored lighting. Its already well known that hi-powered colored LEDs can rival/beat the efficiencies of filtered incandescent/halogen counterparts in this area. Where would you use these? Spas, pools, landscapes....etc.

- Apps requiring extreme ruggedness and dependability. Military apps and camping/sports come to mind. Need not necessarily be flashlights.

There's lots more app if you think about it. My take is that LEDs are better for directional lighting too. A bulb or tube spreads light in almost all directions, so its total lumen output may be wasted by bouncing light into the interior of a fitting. Reflectors can only help so much and add to complexity, bulk and cost of the fitting. An LED points almost all its light forward. So, if you're thinking of wide area general lighting with LEDs, its most likely going to be a losing proposition when comparing them with traditional lighting. But if you look at cove lighting, accent lighting, directional near-to-medium field lighting - LEDs stand a chance.

Anyways, nichia has been reaaaally quiet all this time - probably chuckling with glee over lumileds 5W fiasco. They've got fairly good consistency with their phosphors and quality control, so I'm expecting them to learn from Lumiled's mistakes and do a much better job with the 10x. PLUS, for the manufacturer - nichia's 10x also seems to be friendlier to the automated mass production line. Luxeons are an absolute PAIN_IN_THE_YOU_KNOW_WHERE when planning for custom production. So, if its expensive for a maker to get the product to market in any way, he will balk and probably wait til machinery, tech and knowhow become more accessible.

Still, I like the technical elegance of an LED. Its not perfect or cheap yet, but everyone remember how much a PL lamp cost at first? And think of the compact disc story too. And large capacity hard disks....etc..etc. I'm optimistic that Moore's law will sorta prevail in some way or another here too, but it will likely take a little more time than with CPUs.

I don't consider myself an expert, but from the experience I've had thus far with the stuff I'm working on, I think I can at least have an opinion
smile.gif
 
Originally posted by INRETECH:
The conversion of Lumens per Watt:

Incandescent 8
LED 24
Flourescent 40

www.inretech.com
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've seen postings on the forum that seem to indicate much higher efficiencies for Incandescent in the range of 15-20. Most of the opinion seems to be that for the moment, Incandescent and LED are very close.
 
I have a 12" diameter red LED traffic signal light I got off E-bay a couple years ago, it is
ungawdly bright!!! It has about 720 HP LEDs in it, runs off 120 VAC and throws a really mean red light, it is painful to look into, even at a distance.

Around these parts, there are a lot of the smaller 8" dia LED traffic signals in use, I'd love to get my hands on an amber and a green one.

/ed brown in NH
 
Regarding the efficiency numbers for incandescents and leds:

The _best_ currently available LEDs have an efficiency in the 20+ lumen per watt range, and there has been one report on CPF about a Luxeon 5W being run at about 0.3watt producing something like 40 lumen per watt...but talk about severe underutilization of the LED
smile.gif


The efficiency range for incandescents goes up to about 25 or 30 lumen per watt, but you only get this with higher wattage lamps (20+ W), operated at high filament temperatures, which means poor lifetime (10-25 _hours rated life at proper voltage) A regular home incandescent bulb might be 10-15 lumen per watt, and a small flashlight bulb operated with old batteries may be well less than 8 lumen per watt.

Incandescent, Florescent, HID, etc. lamps all seem to have pretty significant 'economies of scale', meaning that you get significant efficiency improvements when you get into high power ranges, and the efficiency goes down if you try to dim the light.

For example, the single factor which most influences incandescent efficiency is filament temperature. The higher the filament, the shorter the bulb life. But the thicker the filament, the longer the life...but a thick filament requires more power to heat up, so a thick filament bulb _must_ be operated at higher power to get the necessary filament temperature. Similarly, longer filaments mean less energy loss in the supports, but this again requires higher power. Finally, dimming a light means lowering the power going to it, which means that the filament temperature is lower, which lowers efficiency. Net result: you get far more light out of a single 100W incandescent than out of 2 100W lamps operating at 50W power (dimmed down), and you get far more light out of a single 100W incandescent than out of 100 1W incandescents (all operated at full power.)

LEDs on the other hand have exactly the opposite scaling laws. LEDs are most efficient in small devices (where there is lots of heat sinking per LED), and LEDs get more efficient when dimmed down.

The net result is that LEDs do not yet compete for bulk lighting applications, but right now today they are a big win for things like flashlights.

-Jon
 
There are other new technologies on the horizon. Tungsten lattice may breathe some life into incandescent bulbs.

http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2002/tungsten.htm

The CCFL lights are coming on strong as well. My guess is that LEDs will rule for monochromatic light, but the field is wide open for white light. Nichia has been pretty quiet lately, as has Cree.

In a similar vein, the first company that makes a big high quality flat screen display affordable will take home all the marbles.
 
With all the technologies of lighting except for LEDs and HPS (High Pressure Sodium) the conversion of electrical energy to photon energy is a destructive process; the device is slowly destroying itself to create light

LED Eff% is rising, and I think that one day - it will surpass FL and other technologies

The Electric Light Bulb was first patented by Swan in 1878 (Not Edison), that has allowed technology for 124 years to improve it

I am sure that in the next 10yrs, the LED will also have advances in technology - as to brightness, color and more

Mike
www.inretech.com
 
The world of the LED was stagnant until the invention of the White LED. LEDs have been nothing more than status indicators for many years. Since that point, things have taken off with remarkable speed.

All of the developement with LEDs in flashlights are proving grounds for new technology. I would be willing to bet that many companies lurk here in CPF to see what is going on. The result of all this, is that we are getting better and better LED flashlight offerings on the market.
 
LED's have made torches into highly desireable fashion items. The light from torches comes in many diffferent colours and we have torches with multifunction flashing LED's...take the Eternalight Rave'n for example...thus the brightness of torches hasn't gone up that significantly, but the reliability and functionality has increased. However, new LED technology is being brought into being that can increase the brightness of a torch by choosing the right spectrum characteristics and by rapidly pulsing the LED's. Cyan, a relatively new colour in the LED world, is the ultimate colour for torches...even a modest cyan torch can render visible its surroundings with remarkable efficiency. I can't wait to get my hands on the Elektrolumens 5W luxeon cyan torch I've got on order!!
LED's will ultimately replace filament bulbs in directional applications such as in torches!

Matt
 
I beleive LED lights will take place of inventional bulb.
LED bulbs will be the future of lightings!

Now it is able to make 50W LED, after packaged, brightness will be equeal to 120W

LED age is coming soon
 
Top