Are Li-ion Motorcycle Batteries ready for prime time?

[cy]

Are Li-ion Motorcycle Batteries ready for prime time?

Prepping a BMW R80G/S PD for round the world trip. Got a great base ... R80G/S went through a frame off restoration with every bearing and seal replaced... including engine (balanced to 1/10 gram) and transmission rebuild, 450 watt alternator upgrade, shocks revalved and sprung, powder coat frame/parts, stainless hardware, etc. etc. like starting with zero miles.

Need a new battery ... it's either AGM or Li-ion ... would like to go with Li-ion and save 8-10lbs.
Several specific Li-ion motorcycle batteries to choose from. Costs is much higher for Li-ion ... AGM is proven.

soooo... are Li-ion motorcycle batteries ready for prime time?
if so what brands are recommended?

 

[Wrend]

You might want to look into the A123 Systems LiFePO4 cells. I believe 4S is a drop in replacement (as far as voltage goes) for "12V" 6S Pb. You might want to parallel the cells too for higher current rate; not really sure. I haven't looked into it myself.

 

[lightseeker2009]

For a around the world trip I would rather go with the proven technology. But that is just me.

 

[dragosios]

Go with AGM.
Remeber, Lithium based batteries can easily spark, explode and burn at high temperatures. You don't want that near your fuel tank.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Go with AGM.
Remeber, Lithium based batteries can easily spark, explode and burn at high temperatures. You don't want that near your fuel tank.

yeah ready for primetime if you stay on test tracks. motorcycles fall over, risking battery damage more often
than a car (you could park the bike, and someone can knock it over, damaging the cell) and then without warning somewhere
the battery catches fire FAST. the only way to protect yourself from this is a bomb-proof battery case system, which would
be bulky and hard to engineer on a bike. best for now to leave LiIon on drag motorcycles where you are in control all the time and
tearing the machine down constantly checking the systems. NiMH is the way to go for public transport, it is inherently safe and
rarely if ever do fires occur. YMMV I am sure the risk is low, but no zero. and when LiIon does catch fire stand the heck back
you won't stop it.

 

[itguy07]

Remeber, Lithium based batteries can easily spark, explode and burn at high temperatures. You don't want that near your fuel tank.

How does the Chevy Volt deal with it then? It has a gas engine and a LiIon battery pack.

 

[shadowjk]

Volt has a cooling system that ensures that the battery pack isn't exposed to high temperatures.

 

[cy]

Go with AGM.
Remeber, Lithium based batteries can easily spark, explode and burn at high temperatures. You don't want that near your fuel tank.

can proudly say I was part of the guinea pigs on CPF that first used li-ion cells in flashlight. no question we were the world first to use unprotected li-ion cells separate from carefully crafted integrated li-ion packs with protection circuitry and chargers mated to pack's voltage requirements.

in the early years ... unprotected cells mated to li-ion chargers that didn't properly terminate.... resulted in thermal runaways... explosions.

does anyone have links to A123 type chemistry batteries exploding/catching on fire?
Looking for folks that's actually used li-ion motorcycle or auto batteries and their experiences.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Charles,

Nice bike.

The high performance "rice burner" cars have used Li-Ion batteries for several years now. I don't think there have been problems, but I don't know how long they last. I think the engine gets blown up before the battery dies... 🙂

My suggestion is to find a Li-Ion replacement that will fit, and then to stash away the cost of a conventional battery if it suddenly craps out during your trip. That way you can give this "new" technology a proper test.

Tom

 

[127.0.0.1]

How does the Chevy Volt deal with it then? It has a gas engine and a LiIon battery pack.

have you been watching the news ?

Chevy volts catch fire ! they have all been recalled to 'strengthen the battery case'

the 'procedure' in an accident is to have a dealer arrive at the accident scene
and purposely discharge the battery pack !

a few accidents have occurred where the chevy volt had no visible damage to the battery
pack but the car caught fire 7 days later !!!!!!

 

[itguy07]

have you been watching the news ?

Chevy volts catch fire ! they have all been recalled to 'strengthen the battery case'

the 'procedure' in an accident is to have a dealer arrive at the accident scene
and purposely discharge the battery pack !

a few accidents have occurred where the chevy volt had no visible damage to the battery
pack but the car caught fire 7 days later !!!!!!

Yes I have (I'm also a car guy) and IIRC the problem with the Volts was not the battery but rather a cooling line that leaked causing a short which had the battery catch fire. From what I recall most of the fires were days/weeks after an accident.

Leakage of fluid is nasty in any car. With a gas car you are sitting on 10-40 gallons of a highly volitile liquid. With an electric car you have a battery and with a hybrid (including the Volt as it's really a souped up hybrid) you've got gas+electricity.

Heck, failure of the charging system in just about every car can cause hydrogen gas to be vented from the battery under the hood.

So I'd say as long as the battery is from a reputable manufacturer (no homebrews) you're probably OK with LiIon.

 

[tobrien]

for what it's worth (pun intended), I believe I saw that Ferrari or some brand like that offers Li-ion batteries in their cars because, iirc, the reasons of reduced weight and stuff.

 

[germanium]

The chevy volt uses a different chemestry battery than the A123 batteries & the A123 batteries are likely safer & can withstand huge abuse & not blow up or catch fire, even if damaged. A123 batteries will last a very long time provided they are not overdischarged. Much longer than leadacid or even other lithium chemestries for that matter. I have seen a set of just four of the larger size round A123 batteries jump start a car in sub freezing weather so they can provide emmense current for thier size. The Toyota Prius uses batteries of the same chemestry & thier batteries are still going strong after 10 years. I would say that LiFePo4 batteries are very well tested & should last a very long time provided they are not overdischarged & will be safe in a motorcycle.

 

[43315]

How does the Chevy Volt deal with it then? It has a gas engine and a LiIon battery pack.

Looks like there still working on it.

http://www.freep.com/article/201111...vy-Volt-crash-test-spurs-safety-investigation

 

[127.0.0.1]

The chevy volt uses a different chemestry battery than the A123 batteries & the A123 batteries are likely safer & can withstand huge abuse & not blow up or catch fire, even if damaged. A123 batteries will last a very long time provided they are not overdischarged. Much longer than leadacid or even other lithium chemestries for that matter. I have seen a set of just four of the larger size round A123 batteries jump start a car in sub freezing weather so they can provide emmense current for thier size. The Toyota Prius uses batteries of the same chemestry & thier batteries are still going strong after 10 years. I would say that LiFePo4 batteries are very well tested & should last a very long time provided they are not overdischarged & will be safe in a motorcycle.

Toyota Prius consists of 28 Panasonic prismatic nickel metal hydride modules. Wicked safe even if the car meets an industrial shredder.

Chevy Volt uses lithium-ion battery cells. Wicked unsafe in a crash and hazardous fire demon waiting to ignite at the slightest short or oxygen intrusion. 3 times more energy dense than NiMH. It is the heat, produced from any shorts in the battery, which ignite not the Lithium (no elemental lithium in a LiION) but ignites the spacers and separators. A thermal runaway condition is the huge risk with Chevy Volts.

 

[itguy07]

Not to start an argument here but I think the "fears" about LiIons in cars are way overstated. The Volt fires were the result of a collision that punctured a cooling line in the battery. That coolant got on a circuit board, crystallized and after a few weeks shorted out. That caused the fire and probably would happen no matter what the battery chemistry (IIRC Toyota and Ford use water cooling on their battery packs too and are NiMH).

The future of the hybrid and electric cars are using LiIon batteries:

• Chevy Volt
• Nissan Leaf
• Tesla cars (Roadster and sedan)
• Hyundai/Kia hybrid system
• 2012 Prius Plug In Hybrid
• 2013 Fusion Hybrid (Plug in and regular)

If these were truly the bombs some think they are there is no way they would be in a production vehicle. Not saying there is 0 risk but the risk is probably less than the 10-40 gallons of gas we all tote around every day.

 

[127.0.0.1]

afaik...Toyota does not make recommendations to immediately drain the battery pack after a crash.
Chevy is says it is required to drain the Volt battery or fires can occur at any time after a crash.

NiMH is better real-world street use technology.

 

[Wrend]

From what I understand the NiMH type cells have to be custom redesigned from the ground up so as to not infringe on the NiMH patents, because the "gas giant" owners wouldn't allow production of them for use in electric vehicles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries)

I believe they run out in 2015, so we may see some significant improvements in NiMH type chemistry for use in electric vehicles then with costs coming down.

Of course the only real hindrance in electric vehicles is the prohibitive cost of larger capacity. This is why they tend to limit them to 100 mile ranges, to try and keep the prices low enough.

 

[germanium]

It does appear that I made a mistake with the toyota Prius comment but even so the LiFePo4 batteries are radically safer than eny other litium chemestry to date & offer higher power than most other types in a small package. Power & energy are not one & the same though & LiFePo4 batteries in current form offer lower energy density than any other litium type battery though I have heard news that they are developing a higher energy version of this type chemestry. It seems the K2 LFP123 batteries offer the best performance so far I have seen from any RCR123 battery that I have tried. Note though that unlike other LiFePo4 batteries that K2 offers it is not a high power unit so must be thier highest energy density type battery they make. By the way the new plug in hybrid priuses will use a lithium type battery, not sure what type chemestry though.

 

[VegasF6]

Are Li-ion Motorcycle Batteries ready for prime time?

Prepping a BMW R80G/S PD for round the world trip. Got a great base ... R80G/S went through a frame off restoration with every bearing and seal replaced... including engine (balanced to 1/10 gram) and transmission rebuild, 450 watt alternator upgrade, shocks revalved and sprung, powder coat frame/parts, stainless hardware, etc. etc. like starting with zero miles.

Need a new battery ... it's either AGM or Li-ion ... would like to go with Li-ion and save 8-10lbs.
Several specific Li-ion motorcycle batteries to choose from. Costs is much higher for Li-ion ... AGM is proven.

soooo... are Li-ion motorcycle batteries ready for prime time?
if so what brands are recommended?

I have yet to here of a failure with a Shorai brand lithium battery. This is from off roaders who submit them to physical abuse including temperature extremes and jarring.

Except for this one on fire, hah!
http://www.superhawkforum.com/forums/general-discussion-30/r-r-shorai-battery=-epic-fail-24934/

Well, mostly they have been reliable.