Are they ripping us off?

[LightTracker]

Great post, light[Tracker]! It'll help the thread keep going in the right direction...Vote with your wallet!!!...but, seriously, I think the Market itself would have to (and I believe is) becoming "self-regualted"...the government isn't going to feel the need to step in and regulate "flashlights".... Vote with yer wallet!!!

I get the point about voting with your wallet. I also undestand some of the analogies in this thread (dressmaker, watch, etc.)... I can't say I believe in anything being self-regulated, but (with all politics aside, as I'm not a purist in any political group)... as a geneal idea regarding classes of products I favor the truth in clear language, and I think it should be a requirement. Yes, for flashlights too. Light bulbs have standards on the label that must be clearly printed, of a certain size and include certain information, including output, color temp (I think), service life, wattage, etc. Flashlights contain a lamp, and when combined with areflector and set of electronics produce certain caracteristics that are measurable. Esp. for high-end lights at 500+ lumnes in a price range of 80.00 - 1000.00... well, you want to know what your getting. Why should you have to hit a half dozen talk forums and contact the manufacturer or drill down in the data (or wait for someone to do a light shootout) to find out realistically what you're getting? Put it on the package and on the advertisement using a measurement standard like ANSI or whoever oversees light measurement standards. You're right that its kind of a specialized market for these devices... but light is a universal thing that can be described using universal terms that would remove much of the confusioin, even for people with little or no background. Sometimes I think products are intentionally obfuscating with their descriptions to keep people in teh dark and thereby keep prices artifically high. And I'm sorry to sound so cynical, but its happened to me enough times in life where somebody saw me coming that... well, I'm just tired of it. You said use your pocket book to fight back. I agree. I'd like to see some information put out in the forum to describe manufactirers who either hide teh information (nmake it difficult to find) or who grossly exagerate the output. Also, if a light initially puts out a certain amount of light and then rapdily dropps off, what is that? Maybe there should be a rating for Avg. Output throughout the battery cycle of the light.

Any comments? Stop the rip-offs!

 

[LightTracker]

Ps. I think flashlight collectrors inadvertently make this problem worse. It becomes status how may you have collected, how usnusal or rare, and, I bet the price matters as a bragging point too. I realize they help other people to discover what's good and what isn't... but don';t you think there is a better way to find out than by trial and error, where each successive error costs you more money?

 

[angelofwar]

I agree. I'd like to see some information put out in the forum to describe manufactirers who either hide teh information (nmake it difficult to find) or who grossly exagerate the output. Also, if a light initially puts out a certain amount of light and then rapdily dropps off, what is that? Maybe there should be a rating for Avg. Output throughout the battery cycle of the light.

Any comments? Stop the rip-offs!

Standards would be nice, but then only certain companies would follow them...i.e. Amercia/Europe...countries with high industry standards. Alot of the companies that do bluff their out-put aren't going to want a standard, cause then they would be liable for mis-leading people, and there 700 lumen light based on a set standard would only be 500 real lumens. Sounds nice, but it would be really hard to do, especially with LED's based on the manufacturing method. The LED companies do this by putting them in bins (kinda self regulated), but when a company in country X buys a top bin LED's for the proto-type model, and get's the out-put off of that, and then buys cheaper (lower) bin's for there production models... Then the lights would have to be individually tested and have there lumen out-put "stamped" on the packaging.

Not to beat a dead horse, but just to show an example, SF buys top-bin LED's, and test's EVERY light, to make sure it meets at least the minimum of there advertised out-put. That's why they do veri, but most of there lights are brighter than stated, and none (should) be lower than the stated out-put. If all companies could do this, it would be great, but it's kinda hard (since every LED is different) to enforce an idealolgy.

Great discussion...now if we could get a world head to "standardize" method's of assembly/testing lights, and allow companies to stamp them (saying they were tested to a set standard), it would be much easier for us to "vote with our wallet", by buying only lights with those markings.

It's kinda like the "Team Soldier Certified Gear" stamp...it has to be at least 60 lumens (determined by the folks at PEO-NET), using THERE test methods and testing equipment. Alot of these American flashlight companies can't send there lights in to be tested/recommened for acceptance because they know they don't make the grade to begin with.

Great Thread and discussion, L.T.!

 

[LightTracker]

Standards would be nice, but then only certain companies would follow them...i.e. Amercia/Europe...countries with high industry standards.

But then you would have a choice of whether to buy the product with a standard measurement listed or not, right? It has to start somewhere, why not the U.S.?

Then the lights would have to be individually tested and have there lumen out-put "stamped" on the packaging.

I agree they would have to stamp the output on the package, but they would not have to test each item, they could use modern statistical quality control (you only need to test a few). It would certainly not siginificantly raise the cost of the product. Again, I think the reason the information isn't provided is that it makes it easier to persuade people that a light is really great. It may sittig on a shelf next to a light that really is great, and maybe it LOOKS GREAT, but maybe its a piece of crap inside.

Great discussion...now if we could get a world head to "standardize" method's of assembly/testing lights, and allow companies to stamp them (saying they were tested to a set standard), it would be much easier for us to "vote with our wallet", by buying only lights with those markings.

Who needs a world head? I think you underestimate the power of the market place OF IDEAS. I've seen people rate lights before. What do they use to do it? How expensive is the equipment to measure light output? Why not threaten to gather the data independently UNLESS a consortium would be formed of the manufacturers to do it themselves at the outset?

You said use your wallet, right? And I agree. But why not use reason too?

It's kinda like the "Team Soldier Certified Gear" stamp...it has to be at least 60 lumens (determined by the folks at PEO-NET), using THERE test methods and testing equipment. Alot of these American flashlight companies can't send there lights in to be tested/recommened for acceptance because they know they don't make the grade to begin with.

But don't you think they would if the consequence to not doing it may be that buyers will KNOW IN ADVANCE that they don't make the grade. How can that information be provided without a world consortium... but do it by the numbers. Here is how much avg light output there is: XXX Here is the efficiency: XXX/XX. Here is the peak outpu, etc...

I feel the solution is a well-thought out standard and then regular communication about it to the manufacturers. "Information about your actual specs compared to advertized specs until or unless you start providing objective data. Here is a recommended standard label that you can put on the package and on the ads: [INSERT IMAGE HERE]

It would be a start anyway. What does anyone think about this? Stop the rip-offs!

 

[Federal LG]

Just a curiosity...

What percentage of profit do you guys think it´s ethical ?

(If I wrote it wrong, sorry... english is not my mother language)

I mean... For example, if a light cost 100 dollars to it´s maker (all costs included), how much he can ask for the final price, in your opinion ?

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Federal LG, it depends on what he is selling and what the market is for his type of product. For example, if he is a new knife builder just getting into the trade and wants to get his name out there, he may mark up is knife to say, $160.00. If he is a knife make and has been in the trade for sometime, and his knives sells like hotcakes, he may charge $300.00. In either case I am considering the knife maker is the direct seller, and no "middle men" are involved. In real life, there may be more considerations to the ultimate price that the seller, in this case the maker, may charge.

Bill

 

[angelofwar]

Fed LG...It seems easy up front, but it really goes deeper than just a "how much does this cost to make?"/what should the price be. Marketing, QA, R&D, and especially CS (or lack there-of). Especially with the SF's...when they set the price, if it were based strictly on profits based off "manufacturing costs", even I would consider them over-priced\rip-offs'. But they have to factor in the lifetime replacement of the light, shipping costs to send the item back (most mfg's charge you), for at least the next 40-60 years, etc. Based on that, 2-3 of my lights have already paid for themselves...I've gotten about $235 dollars back in replacements parts/shipping costs from SF all because there C.S. Most other companies, I would have paid $30 in shipping or had to buy a new light all together. So, you would really have to figure out the true "end cost" and base the profit off of that. I'd say 15-20% mark-up from end cost would be fair.

 

[kwkarth]

Just a curiosity...

What percentage of profit do you guys think it´s ethical ?

(If I wrote it wrong, sorry... english is not my mother language)

I mean... For example, if a light cost 100 dollars to it´s maker (all costs included), how much he can ask for the final price, in your opinion ?

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, 5X the cost of manufacture (Bill of materials) is a figure commonly used by many large companies with multiple distribution channels to satisfy. The manufacturer is lucky if they end up with 5%-20% profit after all the bills are paid.

 

[RocketTomato]

If there ever was a case of the all knowing consumer it is definitely here on CPF. We literally have people taking lights apart, testing lumen output and measuring runtime and regulation. If you feel "ripped off", then I feel you did not do your homework. I think the better term to use is overpriced. In my opinion, I definitely have seen some lights that seem overpriced and I have thus decided not to purchase them.

By the way, what is the opposite of "ripping us off"? I really want to commend 4sevens for under-promising and over-delivering on his Quark series of Ti lights. The Ti versions are less then twice the price of the regular quarks yet are made of Titanium and sport the absolute highest Cree flux bin to date (XP-G R5). If anything, I think they are undervalued!

 

[1138]

A free market only exists BECAUSE not everybody has full information and BECAUSE people don't act rational (still can be reasonable though). Otherwise companies wouldn't make profits (they all would sell at margin costs) and there would be no choice at all.
Check out the good old microeconomics about markets with perfect information and rational choices. They have difficulties to explain profits and competing companies....😀

That is an interesting point. But isn't it the case that since people have limited time and ability, companies can still make a profit because a certain product is not otherwise available?

You make it sound as though anyone could just go to a junkyard and simply assemble a light out of scrounged up parts. Water or gas pipe for the body tube. . . Oh yeah, cheap & easy to assemble one.

That's not the view that I wanted to convey. Compared to a computer hard drive, a flashlight is much simpler and yet costs me more. Much of it is due to economies of scale, as pointed out by other people. But that simply means that flashlights could be a lot less expensive since more complicated things can be less expensive.

I'm not suggesting that the manufacturers are ripping people off. I simply think that lights aren't worth as much as we actually pay for them.

It's one of the reasons why I don't buy any light that's more than $50 to $60. The more expensive lights are interesting and tempting, but there are better ways to spend my money. If I needed a certain feature and it was only available for an overly high price, I'd buy it, but it would be grudgingly.

 

[LightTracker]

Just a curiosity...

What percentage of profit do you guys think it´s ethical ?

(If I wrote it wrong, sorry... english is not my mother language)

I mean... For example, if a light cost 100 dollars to it´s maker (all costs included), how much he can ask for the final price, in your opinion ?

Typical margins on retail products vary from around 12 to 20%. That's the result of competition. DeBeers Diamonds has a margin of around 3000% because they have little or no competition.

Margins can be higher when the buyers have no objective way to assess value or they don't care. In the case of diamonds, market analysis has shown that people WANT artificially high prices because the end users are mostly women and it gives them a sense that they're personally valued and loved.

Lights are so utilitarian though. I see no reason why there should not be a good way to assess the value. I suppose you could subscribe to Consumer Reports or some like but that's still somewhat subjective. I still say tell me the Peak Output, Avg. Output, Efficiency (Lumens/watt) and Output variance, in other words how fast does the output drop off throught the battery cycle.

Let's say you want 1200-1500 Lumens and you want it consistently for night time hiking. Maybe you drop $1000.00 on a Lupine Betty because its the only thing that seems up to the task. Let's say its rated at 1500 Lumen at peak performance. That's really not enough information is it? Maybe you're hiking in a hot canyon with no air moevement. I believe that light has electronics in it that cause it to dim to reduce heat and preserve the lamp life. You may have just spent $1000.00 expecting 1000+ Lumen on a light that puts out 300 Lumen in your situation because of heat and lack of air movement.

People who just collect, I think, keep prices artificially high for everyone else. Because they're looking for uniqueness, consistency of the beam and maybe other more subjective qualities. But most people don't collect and don't have access to shootout results and they don't understand how to dig up the information or even what questions to ask. I was reading on this forum for two years before I understood some of the nuances, and I still don't have a handle on it really. The complexity of LED (or HID) lighting is begging for some simple, telling measures that you don't have to have a master's degree in engineering to comprehend.

Stop the rip-offs!

 

[KiwiMark]

It's one of the reasons why I don't buy any light that's more than $50 to $60. The more expensive lights are interesting and tempting, but there are better ways to spend my money. If I needed a certain feature and it was only available for an overly high price, I'd buy it, but it would be grudgingly.

When it comes to spending your own money then you are doing the right thing. Your money = your decision on what is worth the cost and what isn't.

For me I try hard to decide what is worth while spending my money on - some lights seem like they cost a lot of money for what you get. Others seem quite good for the cost. I have some lights that cost more than $60 that I don't believe are matched by cheaper lights. e.g. Jetbeam Jet-IIIM - with its well designed UI and VERY nice construction (things like square threads).

If a light doesn't seem to be worth to me as much as the seller is asking for then I don't buy it. If I would be willing to pay as much or more than the asking price to own a light then I do buy it. Generally I don't get ripped off because I don't pay more than I am willing to for any given light. The only time I could get ripped off is if I buy a light that doesn't do what the seller claimed it would - so far that hasn't happened.

 

[drmaxx]

That is an interesting point. But isn't it the case that since people have limited time and ability, companies can still make a profit because a certain product is not otherwise available?

This is what I mean with buyers don't have 'full information', for what ever reason. No time, no access to info, too lazy, too impulsive, ... buying choices are rarely made based on an excel sheet with a full cost-benefit analysis... The early microeconomic models just did not factor in the 'costs' for gathering information..

 

[Flashlight_Bug]

DM51, thanks for the link to this tread.

Let's make pretend an imagined situation:

ABC is an online store selling flashlights and today ABC is giving 40% discounts on all "Crowtac"-branded flashlights and accessories. Lets take this 40% as their minimum margin. So with a certain 'stroby' Crowtac model priced at $82.90, they pay a cost of $49.74 and will make a margin of $33.16 without the 40% discount. Now, XYZ is the trademark owner of Crowtac in the USA and distributes them to online dealers like ABC, but we all know that XYZ probably get all their products from some third-party manufacturers in China. Suppose XYZ also makes a margin of 40%, that's $19.90 and the manufacturer's price is $29.84. However, it's not logical to think that XYZ only makes a measly $19.90 from an $82.90 flashlight. So, the manufacturer's price is actually way lower than $29.84.

Of course, these estimations are too simple and really silly. But doesn't it make you wonder the real cost of your precious light? Your "elite" and "special" 200-dollar light may actually cost only 20 bucks to make with the rest going to middle-men and not to the people who actually made it.

By the way, I'm referring to mass-produced lights. Custom-made lights are a different matter. You really can't put a price on superb workmanship.

 

[DM51]

LOL, nicely done, Flashlight Bug!

 

[jirik_cz]

Suppose XYZ also makes a margin of 40%, that's $19.90 and the manufacturer's price is $29.84. However, it's not logical to think that XYZ only makes a measly $19.90 from an $82.90 flashlight. So, the manufacturer's price is actually way lower than $29.84.

It doesn't work that way. Wholesale dealers like XYZ have usually much lower margins.

 

[LightTracker]

DM51, thanks for the link to this tread.

Let's make pretend an imagined situation:

ABC is an online store selling flashlights and today ABC is giving 40% discounts on all "Crowtac"-branded flashlights and accessories. Lets take this 40% as their minimum margin. So with a certain 'stroby' Crowtac model priced at $82.90, they pay a cost of $49.74 and will make a margin of $33.16 without the 40% discount. Now, XYZ is the trademark owner of Crowtac in the USA and distributes them to online dealers like ABC, but we all know that XYZ probably get all their products from some third-party manufacturers in China. Suppose XYZ also makes a margin of 40%, that's $19.90 and the manufacturer's price is $29.84. However, it's not logical to think that XYZ only makes a measly $19.90 from an $82.90 flashlight. So, the manufacturer's price is actually way lower than $29.84.

Of course, these estimations are too simple and really silly. But doesn't it make you wonder the real cost of your precious light? Your "elite" and "special" 200-dollar light may actually cost only 20 bucks to make with the rest going to middle-men and not to the people who actually made it.

By the way, I'm referring to mass-produced lights. Custom-made lights are a different matter. You really can't put a price on superb workmanship.

Flashlight Bug: I hope you're reading my posts and AngelOfWar's comentary too. The thing that bothers you is pretty widespread. Almost everyone I know becomes incensed when they find out that they paid a huge mark-up (perhaps 5X for something worth X). I know that some people say value is an individual thing, but obvisoulsy its not that way for everyone. Many peope would like to know up front if they're paying a huge mark-up or not. I know I would, and I bet you would too. One of the best indicators of value is truthful advertising and factual information that's not too difficult for an average consumer to understand. I'm interested in hearing from other poeple. Am I alone in my thinking? Does anyone else believe that we have to put up with this just because a large number of parties in retail business enjoy priveledges that we don't enjoy? (I mean factual information)

Does anyone want to do anything about this?

Stop the rip-offs!

 

[London Lad]

snip

Does anyone want to do anything about this?

snip

No, I for one don't, its called capitalism and I don't like the alternative.

I know its unfashionable nowadays but people need to make their own decisions and be responsible for their own actions.

If we cocoon everyone with rules, regulations and laws soon people will expect life to be perfect and loose the ability to make the decisions that shape their lives.

If I decide I want a product for sale at $10 that's because I have decided its worth $10 to me. I don't care if it cost $1 to make or $20.

 

[Christoph]

I have a few questions about this
quote from LT
"Almost everyone I know becomes incensed when they find out that they paid a huge mark-up (perhaps 5X for something worth X). I know that some people say value is an individual thing, but obvisoulsy its not that way for everyone. Many peope would like to know up front if they're paying a huge mark-up or not.Why? I know I would, and I bet you would too. One of the best indicators of value is truthful advertising and factual information that's not too difficult for an average consumer to understand. I'm interested in hearing from other poeple. Am I alone in my thinking? Does anyone else believe that we have to put up with this What is it that you are having to put up with? just because a large number of parties in retail business enjoy priveledges that we don't enjoy?What are the privledges that they enjoy and who are they? (I mean factual information)

Does anyone want to do anything about this? What is it that you think should be done other than keeping your wallet in your pocket so that you won't feel ripped off.
The blue is me

 

[RocketTomato]

ABC is an online store selling flashlights and today ABC is giving 40% discounts on all "Crowtac"-branded flashlights and accessories. Lets take this 40% as their minimum margin. So with a certain 'stroby' Crowtac model priced at $82.90, they pay a cost of $49.74 and will make a margin of $33.16 without the 40% discount. Now, XYZ is the trademark owner of Crowtac in the USA and distributes them to online dealers like ABC, but we all know that XYZ probably get all their products from some third-party manufacturers in China. Suppose XYZ also makes a margin of 40%, that's $19.90 and the manufacturer's price is $29.84. However, it's not logical to think that XYZ only makes a measly $19.90 from an $82.90 flashlight. So, the manufacturer's price is actually way lower than $29.84.

Why is it not logical? You yourself showed that $19.90 is a logical estimate.

Almost everyone I know becomes incensed when they find out that they paid a huge mark-up (perhaps 5X for something worth X).

You are way oversimplifying the economics here. A 5X mark up does not mean that 80% profit is being made. Take the "CrowTac" example above. The manufacturer needs to pay for flashlight design, testing, materials, manufacturing, warehousing, shipping, logistics, salaries, rent electricity, taxes, etc. They then hope that they can sell enough flashlights to make back their investment.

The actual distributor also has costs. Marketing, office space, warehousing, electricity, toll-free numbers, web-site costs, credit card fees, taxes, salaries, customer support, etc.

You may look at the distributor as a "middle man" but they offer an important service to the manufacturer and the customer.

If you think flashlights are bad, do you know what the mark-up on a movie DVD is? It costs pennies to manufacturer a DVD, but at retail we pay close to $20.00. Are they movie studios "ripping us off"? How about software companies? The same thing happens with the much maligned pharmaceutical companies. It can cost 100s of millions if not billions of dollars to develop a new drug. They need to recoup these costs in order to keep developing new drugs.

It does not cost $0 to run and maintain business.