Are they ripping us off?

[LightTracker]

I have a few questions about this
quote from LT "Almost everyone I know becomes incensed when they find out that they paid a huge mark-up (perhaps 5X for something worth X). I know that some people say value is an individual thing, but obvisoulsy its not that way for everyone. Many peope would like to know up front if they're paying a huge mark-up or not. Why?

You asked why. Because I talk to people and listen to them, and it is the overwhelming concensus of pople, esp. among people who buy utlities or technical equipment (with the exception of giovernment bodies)

What is it that you are having to put up with?

Untruth in advertizing. Not giving out useful information which is really very easy to give out. I realize its a bigger issue than just lights, but lights is the topic so that's what I'm addressing.

...just because a large number of parties in retail business enjoy priveledges that we don't enjoy?What are the privledges that they enjoy and who are they? (I mean factual information)

Go to REI or any large outfitter, or go online and tell me which items ascribe to any known standard for the claims made. Most of them don't tell you much at all. Some specialized lights do (like diving lights or bike lights), buit most don't. How about if you tell me something. Are you in business selling things? Lights perhaps? Or, would you like to be? If so, would you prefer the priveldge of knowing all of teh essentials (not the design however) that you've learned in prodcuing your product, and possibly reveal that it has no advanatage over something that costs less? Many people want that priveledge, and the proof is in their failure to provide the essential data that's needed to compare. But I disagree with that thinking. I think the priveledge should go to the buyer, the one who is spening money, not the one who is collecting it. (And the person who called my idea anti-captalistic should consider that. Its us, not govt. and thier partnerships with private companies that should control these things)

What is it that you think should be done other than keeping your wallet in your pocket so that you won't feel ripped off. The blue is me

It would help if you admit that what I'm saying is not a mere "sense" by me, but that you and many in this froum (who are mainly buyers or hobbyists, not commercial parties or highly technically adept) are likley to have had disappointments in purchasing, and that many (if not all) of those could have been easily avoided by having accessto factual information about what they were buying.

That would be a start. The comment above about this being anti-capalitistic is untrue. There is nothing anti-capatlistic about using a consortium of people or interests to (possibly without the aid of government) require truthfull essentialinformation on ads and packaging. If what that poster is saying were true then it would be anti-capitalistic to require labels for nutrition, light bulbs, automobiles... etc. Personally, I don't hold to either pure capitalism or pure socliaism. I think they're opposite errors. But that's for another forum. We're talking about lights and whether people are being ripped off, right?

Who agrees with me? Who wants to help stop the rip-offs! Who wants to get in an informed position as a buyer (without having to study up ojn it for a year) and perhaps (also) show the sellers that this forum is not primarily for them but for people who enjoy lights and ideas about lighting too.

 

[London Lad]

LOL, You are just having a wind up here aren't you!

 

[LightTracker]

Ps. I assume no one would have thought its inmportant to have light shootout if not for the fact that a very poor set of data has been given out over the years. And not coincidentally, if you search back through some of those threads, you'll see right there along with the ones doing the basic research are antagonists and commercial interests (sometimes they're upfront about it and sometimes not)... Why do you think that is? Because everyone involved is loving and kind and wants you to have the best deal? (rhetoricl question)

 

[LightTracker]

LOL, You are just having a wind up here aren't you!

I like your tag line. Actually, the U.S. president is wanting to form a consumer protection agency for financial products. It would force that essentiual information into public view and thus remove some of the priveldge from those who control the country's purse strings.

While I don't care for many of his measures which are borderline tyrannical, this one seems to me to hold certain benfits for everyone. If something like that can be administered for retail goods (without controlling production itself, and without divilging design data) it would help toward this cause concerning lights. Lights is a very small facet of a very large issue... admittedly its that... nonetheless, in all seriousness, it could help for these buyers who have experienced rip-offs... and we all have..

But yes, a little "wind up".. hope you and others don't mind.

Stop the rip-offs!

 

[1138]

This is what I mean with buyers don't have 'full information', for what ever reason. No time, no access to info, too lazy, too impulsive, ... buying choices are rarely made based on an excel sheet with a full cost-benefit analysis... The early microeconomic models just did not factor in the 'costs' for gathering information..

This is interesting. I'm not sure I fully understand all the implications right now. Do you know of a book where I can read more about this?

No, I for one don't, its called capitalism and I don't like the alternative.

I know its unfashionable nowadays but people need to make their own decisions and be responsible for their own actions.

If we cocoon everyone with rules, regulations and laws soon people will expect life to be perfect and loose the ability to make the decisions that shape their lives.

Without regulations, costs that are externalized are never paid for by the responsible party. That's a bad thing. There are other problems, too. Different entities have unequal power or resources. Without regulation, these disparities can be exploited to the detriment of society.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to have regulations requiring that businesses disclose all pertinent information about their products. It puts enables people to be MORE responsible about their own decisions because they can actually make an informed one.

 

[LightTracker]

To DRMAX, LONDON LAD and 1138:

All that's required is a central registry. Heck you could set one up through Google right now for free (of course it might end up costing $ once it reaches a certain size). But you don't need to read books about economics, most of that is a side-track and is written by people who are fascinated by the structures of power and money. People are the answer, not economics gurus. But be concerned about the "cost of gathering information"? You can regulate that with teh stroke of a pen. But you need people, and agreement to tell the people who regulate things that's what you want. Tell them you don't want to be ripped off, and tell them there's a simple solution. Then give them my number. I'll explain it in plain english. It goes like this:

1) create a registry
2) allow users to acreat accounts using their buisiness DUNS number or Tax ID and SSN
3) enter the data

Then charge a stiff fine (and offer jail time) for failing to provide truthful information.

Siimple.

Stop the rip-offs!

Ps. More "wind up"....? Actually the better path is to not be required to use regulation, and that's my preference always. I don't hink its impoossible to do it without regulation... but a lot of people would have to exercise buying power (really, absence of buying) to do it

 

[LightTracker]

Without regulations, costs that are externalized are never paid for by the responsible party. That's a bad thing. There are other problems, too. Different entities have unequal power or resources. Without regulation, these disparities can be exploited to the detriment of society.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to have regulations requiring that businesses disclose all pertinent information about their products. It puts enables people to be MORE responsible about their own decisions because they can actually make an informed one.

I agree with you 100%. But there are a lot of special interests/attornies/etc. who have direct relationships with people in power who are in a position to regulate. And unless you can create an uproar (like radio talk show hosts have done for a couple of issues lately), what can be done?

I think the answer is have a strong idea, and communicate it so clearly (and to the right parties) such that ignorance can't be claimed when certain interests approach them opposing the idea, which they will do! This internet medium provides a way for ordinary people to have a voice, and to track what politciains do. It may be the best way possible to stop the rip-offs from happening. Its not only lights (and failure to label them) that constutute a rip-off. Its a rip-off every time a politcian is persuaded by some business interest to make decisions based on the self-intrerest to the detriment of society, ordinary people and legitimate competitors.

Stop the rip-offs!

 

[McGizmo]

.....


Untruth in advertizing. Not giving out useful information which is really very easy to give out. I realize its a bigger issue than just lights, but lights is the topic so that's what I'm addressing.



.....

I agree that this is a much bigger issue than just lights and trying to come up with some form of viable change here regarding just lights is on par with a flea tripping an elephant.

For a consumer to have perfect knowledge, the consumer must be able to process and understand the information that forms the basis of that knowledge.

How many times have you seen a newbie looking for max lumens and thinking that lumens is a measure of throw. Whether a manufacturer or dealer provides a real out the front number for flux or uses the best case from the LED manufacturer for flux, the newbie believes that number will tell him something about how well the light will throw. He presently has a light that puts out 40 lumens and he can't quite make out what animal is eating his tomatoes. He buys a light that puts out 200 lumens and now, with it, can't even make out his tomato plants. Did he get ripped off?

"Useful information that is really very easy to give out" I think information is much easier to give than it may be to really understand it.

I have seen truthful information provided as an effective means of misleading the customer. I have seen it mislead the manufacturer for that matter and be passed on with good intentions, to the consumer.

On this forum, through the years, I have seen users and consumers seek fantasy at the expense of truth and resent truth being thrust in their face.

 

[KiwiMark]

^^^ What he said!

 

[RocketTomato]

Manufacturers should of course be truthful with their advertising but customers have a responsibility to inform themselves also. Like Don pointed out, you could plaster the box with specs, but if a customer does not understand them, how useful are they truly? They are only useful to the educated consumer. "Caveat Emptor" is a latin phrase that has stood the test of time for a reason.

 

[DimeRazorback]

 

[DM51]

If you own a luxury car like Porsche or BMW 7 series you will feel the same way when you take it to the garage try to get an oil change or minor repair.

It is interesting that you (of all people) have the insolence to post in a thread with a title about ripping people off. I suggest instead that you return to this thread and deal with your debts to other CPF members.

 

[LightTracker]

I agree that this is a much bigger issue than just lights and trying to come up with some form of viable change here regarding just lights is on par with a flea tripping an elephant.

You have to start somewhere.

For a consumer to have perfect knowledge, the consumer must be able to process and understand the information that forms the basis of that knowledge.

Nobody needs perfect knowledge. And nobody needs to flooded with so much of it that its confusing. Your sentence above is more confusing than a simple label would be.

How many times have you seen a newbie looking for max lumens and thinking that lumens is a measure of throw?

Not that many. Anyone who has owned a Maglite or Brinkman knows that narrowing the beam angle creates a brighter spot at a distance. Besides, this is the essential confusing point and maybe that's more reason than any for calrifying the data, or having aanother measure, "Typical throw @ 100yds = XX"

"Useful information that is really very easy to give out" I think information is much easier to give than it may be to really understand it.

Sometimes there is a learning curve involved, but saying its not easy to understand isn't true. A good label may be interpreted in different ways depending on the intuition of the person reading it. Look at nutrition labels. Some people look at daily % of sodium and thing, "Oh, 10%... I could have 10 like portions a day of that and still be at the norm." Someone else may say, "Oh look, 200 mg of Sodium, that would leave me 1800 for the rest of my daily intake."

I have seen truthful information provided as an effective means of misleading the customer. I have seen it mislead the manufacturer for that matter and be passed on with good intentions, to the consumer.

That's why it requires forethought. That's why it should be a standard set of information, and not what each manufacturer interprets. There is enough knowledge in this forum to come up with a good format. Why don't you make some suggestions?

On this forum, through the years, I have seen users and consumers seek fantasy at the expense of truth and resent truth being thrust in their face.

I don't disagree with you at all on the frst half of that sentence. The second have though leaves me wondering if all of the peooe who you think feel that way REALLY DID get a laymen's version of the data? Some posters, I think, throw their knowledge at you like they want to make certain you realize what a dope you are and what a truly enligtened genius they are.

Bear in mind that this is good for manufacturers too. Many of them may not realize it, but this could give them more focus. Once everyone is playing by the same set of "rules" it will require pure innovation to form some advantage over a competitor. It would certainly require more than slick packaging and GREAT SOUNDING but otherwise MEANINGLESS claims.

Stop the rip-offs!

 

[McGizmo]

Lighttracker,

If you want to stop the ripoffs, how about identifying them for your fellow CPF member. That's my suggestion.

 

[Gene43]

From what I have observed, regulations tend to be slanted to the favor of those with influence (and motives). Its just what what I have observed.

 

[angelofwar]

With modern printing technology, how about they post a picture of the beam-shot (assuming they're all built to a certain standard, i.e. all of 1 model use the same bin LED's/resistors/etc, and are tested prior to packaigng) on the packaging along with a lumen rating (OTF Lumens...should be the industry standard) and a runtime PLOT...not a number a PLOT!!! Are you listening manufacturers? Thanks to SF for posting useful out-put numbers and Inova for including runtime plots! But like some have stated, they may not include it as to not confuse the uneducated consumer...

 

[mdocod]

Hello LightTracker,

Option A: A government run operation that puts together committees and boards and comes up with standardized ways to describe the performance or behavior of each product on a shelf anywhere in the world to whatever they decide is the "average" intelligence or, possibly, something lower...?

Option B: Welcome to LightTracker.com, ever wonder if you are being "ripped off?" Check out this amazing collection of product information, organized by category. I've hired independent specialists in each field to help me tally up the goods and the bads on everything from bed frames to pogo sticks! If you have a moment, don't forget to visit my sponsors! (oh, and don't tell them about the bad reviews their products are getting here, I need the money!, lol). 1 on 1 consults? Call 1-800-555-....

Option A: You pay for this "service" via taxes, the anti-establishment results you had hoped for turn into even more opportunities for big government and big corp to get in bed together. The end result is more information control, less competition, and even greater ripp-offs, only then, it will be hidden from you entirely. The corruption will go far deeper than just "lux measurements."

Option B: You make a profit, you help others with valuable information and expose ripp-offs all over the place and sleep at night knowing that you are doing everything in your power to do this the best that you can and are being compensated for your efforts.


-----


Throughout history, repetition in words has been used to pass off non-truths as truth. More often than not, the repeated words are not rooted to anything specific but are left to generality, which works well because more people are able to attach their own specifics and fill in the blanks as needed, which helps everyone following in the chant feel like they have a personal score to settle by following through with whatever endeavor the chant is backing up.

STOP THE CORRUPTION!
STOP THE CORRUPTION!
STOP THE CORRUPTION!

Sounds good eh? Problem is, what corruption am I talking about? Maybe what I feel is corruption is not what someone else feels is corruption. If I went marching down my street with a megaphone chanting "stop the corruption" I would have thousands following me by the end of the day, and I bet I would have people from every political leaning in the ranks. Every one of them will fill in the blank with a piece of corruption that they are aware of and agree is corruption and join in on the march. Now all I have to do is put a "how" up there, <insert candidate for election> and blammo, a whole bunch of people are voting for a guy based on a chant with minimal meaning.

------

Final Point:

You are capable of articulating your thoughts and come across as an intelligent individual. This would lead me to believe that you can learn anything you put your mind to. I believe that you do not personally need a government run entity to help you make informed decisions, and I would not ask you to pay for such an entity in order to benefit others who are not your concern unless you care to make them your concern. (Your own personal charity towards others is not a decision that I should make for you). I would ask in return, that you do not ask me to pay for a government entity that does not benefit me, and I will make charitable contributions of knowledge or finances at my own discretion.

Sound fair?

Regards,
-Eric

 

[LightTracker]

Lighttracker, If you want to stop the ripoffs, how about identifying them for your fellow CPF member. That's my suggestion.

This is like saying, "If you want to stop high taxes, how about identifying them for your fellow tax payers?"

But in reality, enough people are aware of what Gene43 says here....

From what I have observed, regulations tend to be slanted to the favor of those with influence (and motives). Its just what what I have observed.

....that you don't need a weather report to know which way the wind is blowing.

Are you in business, McGizomo? Just curious. If so, what kind?

AngelOfWar has an excellent idea. Part of the standard could be a standard beamshot. What is more telling than that? Here's what he said (in blue...and thank you Sir, for getting into this. It might be fun even if not world changing):

"how about they post a picture of the beam-shot (assuming they're all built to a certain standard, i.e. all of 1 model use the same bin LED's/resistors/etc, and are tested prior to packaigng) on the packaging along with a lumen rating (OTF Lumens...should be the industry standard) and a runtime PLOT...not a number a PLOT!!! Are you listening manufacturers? Thanks to SF for posting useful out-put numbers and Inova for including runtime plots! But like some have stated, they may not include it as to not confuse the uneducated consumer..."

I agree the confusing elements shouldn't be included. But if the data can be easily attained using a standard method, I'm all for it. How about this, for example?

Lumens
Lumens/Watt
Photo or figure? (let the photo/figure indicate beam speead range)
Runtime plot (an objective Avg.?)

Maybe you could show me an example of a runtime plot using Lumens instead of a number?

Cheers!

Stop the rip-offs!

 

[DimeRazorback]

Are you in business, McGizomo? Just curious. If so, what kind?

Sorry but I had to...

 

[LightTracker]

Hello LightTracker,

....works well because more people are able to attach their own specifics and fill in the blanks as needed, which helps everyone following in the chant feel like they have a personal score to settle by following through with whatever endeavor the chant is backing up.

STOP THE CORRUPTION!
STOP THE CORRUPTION!
STOP THE CORRUPTION!

Sounds good eh? Problem is, what corruption am I talking about? Maybe what I feel is corruption is not what someone else feels is corruption.

I'm talking about RIP-OFFS that may largely be prevented, whether any corruption is associated with it or not. Honestly, many people could care less if there is a plot behind it or not. I'm sure nobody screamed "STOP THE CORRUPTION" to get standardized data on light bulbs. But you can bet your bottom dollar many of them read it and find it useful to know XXXX hours of bulb life (with the same objective measure of output) for more money than XXXX +1000 hours of bulb life (with the tsame objective measure of output) is a RIP-OFF. It doesn't matter if the manufacturer is corrupt at the time you're standing in the store or looking online.

You then said:

If I went marching down my street with a megaphone chanting "stop the corruption" I would have thousands following me.... Every one.... fill in the blank with a piece of corruption.... and join in on the march.

I don't like that either. But that's NOT what I'm talking about, and I think you know that.

You are capable of articulating your thoughts and come across as an intelligent individual....

Gee, that sounded like a compliment... and I almost was going to say Thank you, until I read the rest (which is actually not a compliment at all but a rhetorical question).

....you can learn anything you put your mind to.... you do not personally need a government run entity to help you make informed decisions, and I would not ask you to pay for such an entity in order to benefit others who are not your concern unless you care to make them your concern. (Your own personal charity towards others is not a decision that I should make for you). I would ask in return, that you do not ask me to pay for a government entity that does not benefit me, and I will make charitable contributions of knowledge or finances at my own discretion.

Sound fair?

No actually. Your entire statement is designed to move the focus off of the RIP-OFFS (and the misinformation, or the lack of information, or the dis-information) that everyone knows is happening but for which there is precious little accountability on the part of those who are selling things. Also, I have at no point asked you or anyone else for money. My personal feeling is that it can be done better by simply being open about what the problem is (defining it) and then being open and willing to contribute to a solution. And then suggest it. Of course I think it should done so well that it would be attractive to people who sell things as well as to people who buy things. Good solutions help all involved parties in some way.

I can sum the problem up with one word: RIP-OFFS
And the solution with another word: TRANSPARENCY

No one needs to know people's propietary secrets, no need to go there. But there's a big credibility gap between the packaging, claims and actual product.... and not only for lights. But lights are complex enough that if it can prove doable (as AngelOfWar said) for people of Avg. or less than Average IQ to inform them and ARM THEM with buying power, then it can be done for just about anything else as well. You could help figure out the problem and propose solutions. Why don't you do that instead of the rhetoric? And not that rhetoric isn't or can't be fun. It is. But after that, what will you have to say?

Cheers.

Stop the RIP-OFFS!