Aren't all batteries the same?! OK, I know they aren't, now tell me why.

[glendayle]

So I've been reading a bunch of the battery threads in here. To be honest, there is almost too much information. I feel like I'm a freshman in a 4000 level class at battery U.

I'm starting to understand some of the terminology and differences, but as usual, it takes me a lot of reading and hands on stuff to start to figure stuff out. So, what I'm looking for. I'm still in the mode of learning about flashlights/batteries. I hope to someday make my own, but at this point still learning. Let's take flashlights out of the equation for the moment. If you are like me you have tons of household items that use batteries. garage door openers, key fobs, radios, etc. I've been wanting to move towards rechargeable batteries for a long time. I've seen that some of you have even made your own chargers out of different equipment and I'm definitely not against doing this, but maybe not for my 1st set. I'm decent and soldering and projecting in general so I'd be interested in considering this method also.

I'm looking to purchase about 8 rechargeable AA and AAA batteries with a charger. I suppose some of these will be used in flashlights, but eventually I'll decide if I want to go to some of the other battery platforms for illumination.

Please make some suggestions and provide input. Links to specific threads are welcomed. As stated before, it's almost like there is too much info for my current knowledge level so helping me filter out stuff "above my paygrade" until later is helpful.

I don't think cost is an issue, but then again, I've only seen the cost of rechargeable batteries at radio shack and your other electronics stores.

Thanks in advance

 

[samgab]

Speaking of Battery U: http://batteryuniversity.com/ could be of a lot of help to you.

And if you're going AA and AAA, to save confusion: You can't go wrong with eneloops.
It's as simple as that.

Now as for chargers, there are a lot of choices, and very few of them would be the "wrong" choice.
Look for something that has separate channels per cell, in other words, it can take one cell at a time per slot, you don't have to load them up in pairs.

You can't go too far wrong with any of the chargers from Maha.
Edit: ...or the fast charger that comes from Sanyo packaged with 4 eneloops. Not the Standard charger, mind; the Fast charger.

 

[Wrend]

As far as AA and AAA rechargeable cells are concerned, Eneloop cells are the gold standard by which all others are compared. Essentially, they offer the best characteristics of rechargeable cells and primary cells with none of the drawbacks. Don't take my word for it though; just do a search for them and you'll find lots of raving reviews.

A very good charger for Eneloops is the MH-C9000.

 

[bbb74]

Eneloop cells are the gold standard by which all others are compared. Essentially, they offer the best characteristics of rechargeable cells and primary cells with none of the drawbacks.

... Except for them having the lowest capacity of any of the decent NiMH cells 🙂 But this is why eneloops are so good - lowest capacity = toughest and best at everything else.

 

[glendayle]

what is a "high" capacity level?

 

[Lynx_Arc]

what is a "high" capacity level?

The higher capacity nimh rechargeable batteries are not LSD (Low Self Discharge). They have made 2500mah to 2700mah.
The reason many do not choose these is because they tend to not be robust and discharge faster when not in use. Many
people have complained about getting a few dozen cycles out of them before they started acting up. When high capacity nimh act up they end up unable to hold voltage as well under a load and discharge a lot quicker sometimes in days instead of months.

 

[Echo63]

what is a "high" capacity level?

Cells are rated in Mah - the AA Eneloops are around 2000mah and some other AA Nimh are 2700mah per cell.
its essentially how much energy they can hold.

Eneloops are LSD or Low Self Discharge cells, and will typically retain 80% of their charge after a year.
normal Nimh cells can sometimes discharge quite quickly - i have a set of 2700mah cells that will self discharge in a week.

before i photograph a wedding i need to charge batteries for my flash - starting a week out i charge my LSD cells (not eneloops, but a store brand from a local electronics store) and then the night before i charge both sets of 2700mah cells
the 2700 mah cells go straight into the flashes and get used first, after all they have more capacity and will generally get me through most of the day - when they die i stuff the LSD cells in, and generally leave them in the flash until the next wedding i do when i start the process again

 

[glendayle]

What is the difference between the Sanyo Eneloop 1500mAH batteries and the Sanyo XX 2500mAH batteries? Is it simply a matter of capacity, or do other factors come into play as well?

 

[Lynx_Arc]

What is the difference between the Sanyo Eneloop 1500mAH batteries and the Sanyo XX 2500mAH batteries? Is it simply a matter of capacity, or do other factors come into play as well?

I think the trend on LSD nimh is the higher capacity the faster the self discharge rate. the 1500s I think last a lot more recharge cycles than normal eneloops.

 

[samgab]

What is the difference between the Sanyo Eneloop 1500mAH batteries and the Sanyo XX 2500mAH batteries? Is it simply a matter of capacity, or do other factors come into play as well?

There are no 1500mAh eneloops.
You're thinking of the fact that the newer standard eneloops are rated to survive for 1500 cycles.

There are eneloop lites. They have 1000mAh. They are cheaper, and rated for up to 2000 cycles.
Then there are eneloops. Standard. They have 2000mAh. (At least 1900mAh, and they usually have about 2000mAh). Rated for up to 1500 cycles.
And there are eneloop XX or Pro. They have 2500mAh, and are rated for up to 500 cycles.

Which LSD-battery is the right one for you?​

[TABLE="class: contenttable, width: 508"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Product Name[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]eneloop[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]eneloop lite[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]eneloop XX[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Technology[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]Ni-MH rechargeable battery[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]Ni-MH rechargeable battery[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]Ni-MH rechargeable battery[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Applications[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]all-purpose[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]low-to-medium power consumption devices[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]medium-to-high power consumption devices[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Charging / Discharging Cycles[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]up to 1500[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]up to 2000[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]up to 500[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Self-discharge[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]ca. 75% capacity after 3 years[/TD]
[TD="width: 136, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2"]ca. 75% capacity after 3 years[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]ca. 75% capacity after 1 year[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Size[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]AA (mignon)[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]AAA (micro)[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]AA (mignon)[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]AAA (micro)[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]AA (mignon)[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Model Name[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]HR-3UTGA[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]HR-4UTGA[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"] HR-3UQ[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]HR-4UQ[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]HR-3UWX[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Voltage[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]1.2 V[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]1.2 V[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]1.2 V[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]1.2 V[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]1.2 V[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Typ. Capacity[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]2000 mAh[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]800 mAh[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]1000 mAh[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]600 mAh[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]2500 mAh[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 105, bgcolor: transparent"]Min. Capacity[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]1900 mAh[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]750 mAh[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]900 mAh[/TD]
[TD="width: 68, bgcolor: transparent"]550 mAh[/TD]
[TD="width: 131, bgcolor: transparent"]2400 mAh [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Wrend]

... Except for them having the lowest capacity of any of the decent NiMH cells 🙂 But this is why eneloops are so good - lowest capacity = toughest and best at everything else.

I don't think it's that simple. For example there are the XX Eneloop cells which offer a higher capacity but likely are higher in performance and expected cycle life potential than many of your standard NiMH cells, and the "1500" cycle cells have a higher cumulative lifetime capacity expectancy than the Lite ones too while having twice the capacity per charge.

For what they offer, I think the XX Eneloop cells are reasonably priced, but I don't see any real need for the 1.25x capacity per charge when the "1500" cycle ones have an expected cumulative lifetime capacity of 2.4x that of the XX cells and they're half the cost.

Capacity per charge isn't as important to me personally since I have extra cell sets charged and ready to use whenever I need them.

The higher capacity cells aren't really all that much higher either. It's the difference between lasting for 1:00 and 1:15 to maybe 1:20.

 

[bbb74]

I don't think it's that simple. For example there are the XX Eneloop cells which offer a higher capacity but likely are higher in quality and expected cycle life potential than many of your standard NiMH cells, and the "1500" cycle cells have a higher cumulative lifetime capacity expectancy than the Lite ones too while having twice the capacity per charge.

For what they offer, I think the XX Eneloop cells are reasonably priced, but I don't see any real need for the 1.25x capacity per charge when the "1500" cycle ones have an expected cumulative lifetime capacity of 2.4x that of the XX cells and they're half the cost.

The higher capacity cells aren't really all that much higher. It's the difference between lasting for 1:00 and 1:15 to maybe 1:20 if you're lucky.

Actually it pretty much is that simple. Compare eneloops with themselves. Low (2000mAh) capacity eneloops are tougher and will last way more cycles than the XX 2500mAh eneloops. Its generally the same with other quality cells - higher capacity = less cycles, less toughness etc. I haven't tested it but maybe it is possible the XX eneloops are tougher than other brands with the same capacity, but they are also probably more expensive too.

Another example - maha imedion vs maha powerex. The powerex have a higher capacity and slightly higher self discharge but are nowhere near as tough and don't last anywhere near as well.

But I do agree, in general I would buy standard eneloops over the XX's unless I absolutely desperately needed that extra capacity rather than just changing the set of batteries.

 

[Wrend]

Actually it pretty much is that simple...

The point I was trying to make is that it isn't a directly proportional relationship, though yes, it does seem to follow the general trend you outlined.

For my needs, in general the most important and distinguishing characteristic of a cell would be its usable cumulative lifetime capacity expectancy for the price. Low self discharge is also pretty important.

Now, on the other hand, if I found a standard AA cell type that offered 2.4x the capacity per charge while the other cells could only offer 1.25x (or so) the cumulative lifetime capacity expectancy, then that would be a little different, but that isn't the case.

 

[glendayle]

OK, guys. Definitely some good information to get me started. I think I will go ahead an order some eneloops and unless someone gives me some other suggestions I'll probably do that MH-C9000 charger. Didn't really want to spend $50 on a charge, however it appears that it has quite a few features that will allow the ability to monitor the health and status of the batteries in addition to just charging them. I imagine that this will help with the longevity of the batteries as well. I found a battery package with with 12AA, 4 AAA, and 2 C and 2 D spacers for $40 and that seems pretty reasonable for what I'm seeing for the standard eneloops.

What are the spacers? Are they simply some sort of "sheath" that allows you to use AA batteries in C and D applications? Why would I want to do that vs just getting C/D batteries?

 

[Mr Happy]

What are the spacers? Are they simply some sort of "sheath" that allows you to use AA batteries in C and D applications? Why would I want to do that vs just getting C/D batteries?

Unfortunately eneloops don't come in C and D sizes (unless you live in Japan). And if you buy other brands of rechargeable battery in C and D sizes what you usually get is a small battery inside a big container. The eneloop C and D adapters just allow you to remove the cell from the container for recharging rather than having the small battery permanently fixed inside.

If you look online you can find proper, full sized C and D rechargeable batteries, but they are expensive and need a big charger. For example, a 10 Ah D cell would take 24 hours to charge at 500 mA, 12 hours at 1 A and 6 hours at 2 A. Most low cost chargers only supply about 500 mA.

 

[glendayle]

So I ordered that large pack of eneloops. I realized after I went back and reviewed the item that the package also comes with a sanyo 4 cell charger. I'll probably wait a little bit until I order the Maha charger.

Now some additional questions about Li-Ion batteries. What applications do people go with Li-Ion batteries over a NiMH battery? I realize that the batteries in cell phones for example are usually an Li-Ion or Li-Polymer battery. What are the advantages/disadvantages of them and what about rechargeable Li-Ion batteries?

 

[Mr Happy]

Lithium ion batteries can hold more energy in a smaller and lighter package than NiMH can. They can also be made to deliver a lot of power on demand. This is why they find their way into consumer gadgets like phones and cameras.

On the downside they come in a multitude of packages, often proprietary, and are expensive to replace. Due to continual product changes, you may find the lithium ion battery is no longer available and difficult to replace 5 or 10 years down the road. The manufacturers expect your product will be obsolete by then and that you will replace it with something new. However, consider that some film cameras from 20 years ago are still good and find a use in capable hands.

In the flashlight arena people use Li-ion for the smaller size and higher capacity or higher power or all three. However, this is very much a custom and niche application for a tiny number of owners. The ordinary flashlight user will never go near a lithium ion powered light. (Mainly because lithium ion is high maintenance, has safety concerns, and needs expertise to select the right battery and charger combination.)

 

[Wrend]

...I'll probably wait a little bit until I order the Maha charger...

One of the main advantages of a charger such as the C9000 is that it charges cells individual as apposed to in groups. The benefit of doing it this way is the cells can be recharged regardless of their state of charged capacity.

On a typical non-independent dual cell charger, the cells being charged should be at the same level of charged capacity before being charged, have the same usage history, and be the same type or the charger will likely damage the cells over time. That isn't as much of an issue if you always use the same exact cells together in devices that take an even number of cells, but loose cells can easily get mixed up if you don't label and keep track of them.

The C9000 also detects when a cell is full and stops its main charging phase.

 

[led2011]

As far as I am concerned, there are many eneloop knockoff in the online shop. How could we realized the difference between the real one and the knockoff? Can some professional guys in the forums recommend the difference?

 

[samgab]

As far as I am concerned, there are many eneloop knockoff in the online shop. How could we realized the difference between the real one and the knockoff? Can some professional guys in the forums recommend the difference?

Where I live there is no problem with fake eneloops.
If you are buying online, don't just go for the cheapest deal.
Buy from a trusted, authorised supplier.
And remember the old adage: If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.