Attempting LED Turn Signals; Resistor and Heat Sink Questions (and more)

[nnamssorxela]

Hello,

I've stumbled across this forum many times throughout my search for everything LED related, and I figured it was finally time to man up and post a "couple" questions. I will be the first to tell you that I know next to nothing about LEDs, resistors, and heat sinks, but I'm willing to learn! Please bear with me as I attempt to get everything from my head into type.

First off, I'm trying to make some LED turn signals for my motorcycle for both legal and visibility reasons. I've purchased some cheap LED signals before, and in the day time you just can't see them well enough. "Quality" LED turn signals are in excess of $100 so that wasn't an option either. I finally decided that the only solution was to make my own signals. I jumped on Ebay and bought some 12,000mcd "superflux" LEDs (pictured below), but to my disappointment, they weren't much brighter than the cheapo LED signals I had purchased previously.

See Rule #3 Do not Hot Link images. Please host on an image site, Imageshack or similar and repost – Thanks Norm


I gave up for the time being but eventually came across this guy who made some single LED signals using some .5w "strawhat" LEDs that are ~95,000mcd. In the video they appear bright, but it was reported that they were "less impressive" in broad day light.

This got me wanting to make some signals again. I found some 1w strawhat LEDs that claim ~190,000mcd and I think that they will do the trick. This is a link to the ebay page.

Now here's where my questions start rolling in....

The resistor calculator I use says that the power dissipated in my resistors is a concern (~2970 mW). I planned to the LEDs from the link above with a single 33ohm resistor (calculated using 12v source, 2.1v forward voltage, 300ma forward current, and 1 LED in the array). If I use 5 of those LEDs I do not get the power dissipation warning, however my roommate seems to think that I will need a heat sink just for the 1 LED, not to mention using 5. He also mentioned using something to drop the voltage, then using resistors from there.

Would several resistors in series spread the load out so power dissipation is no longer a concern?
Is heat really an issue with LEDs like this? Especially when using for such short intervals like turn signals?

If I use just one led per signal, it will be exposed like the one in the video (potentially lots of airflow?) but if I use 5 LEDs, I will probably gut some of the cheap signals I have and put the LEDs in the housing.

Are there better options than what I'm looking at? Any advice is appreciated.

-Alex

 

[-Virgil-]

I'm trying to make some LED turn signals for my motorcycle for both legal and visibility reasons.

Hi, welcome to the board. Unfortunately, this thread cannot proceed along the lines you probably had in mind. Homemade vehicle lights are always illegal and usually unsafe, and Rule 11 of this board prohibits advocating illegal or dangerous activity. So, there will be no discussion of making your own lights.

You're right that cheap lamps are junk. Fortunately there is a wide variety of good-performing LED signal lamps that don't cost much, from reputable makers. All you have to do is set up the mounting brackets, and you're all set.

 

[nnamssorxela]

Darn. Can you point me in the right direction for finding these good-performing LED indicators?

And since I've already ordered some parts for my "project" I'll probably turn them into under-lighting for my skateboard. Was I on the right track? Will the 1w LEDs overheat to the point of needing a heatsink of some sort? After further research, it looks like the closest I can make the source voltage to my forward voltage, the happier my resistors and LEDs will be.

Sorry for my errors!
-Alex

 

[nnamssorxela]

Further more, I've been having trouble with my LED tail light and I figured this would be the best place to ask.

I will attempt to give every bit of information I can:

• The light is manufactured by "Rinder"
• Sometimes the light will be off completely (as soon as the bike is on, it should be on as a running light)
• Sometimes the "running" light will be on, but the brake light will not function (this is probably the wrong term, but the LEDs seem to be dual diode in the sense that, no additional lights come on when applying brakes, they just get brighter).
• If I tap on the light, I can sometimes make it turn on or off, or at least make it flicker
• There appears to be some sort of "frosting" in the corners of the light. I haven't been able to tell if it is water moisture or not.
• The bikes regulator and rectifier seem to be working (according to my multimeter), so the light is not seeing excessive voltage.
• If I jiggle tie wires going into the back, I can make the light go on and off.

This is everything I can think of. The main source of the error seems to be the wires going into the back. I have routed the wires in a way that allows them to come straight out of the light and apply pressure back towards the light, and it appears to be functioning properly now.

I wondering what the problem could be, and what the appropriate way to fix it is. I'm having trouble trying to figure out what would cause some of these problems and not the others.

Thank you for your time,
-Alex

 

[-Virgil-]

Darn. Can you point me in the right direction for finding these good-performing LED indicators?

The best, easiest, most effective (and cost-effective) way to upgrade a motorcycle lighting system is by installing standard-size/shape LED lights from companies like Peterson, Truck-Lite, Grote, Hella, and Speaker. There are numerous varieties for every function (brake/tail, turn signal, marker, etc.) and lots of brackets and mounting accessories. I usually peruse the manufacturers' sites to figure out the part numbers for what I want for any given project, then put those numbers in here for nice pricing. Be careful to get lamps that are designed to produce the function you need; it's not enough to just have the right color. For example, you can't just "decide" a red marker light into a stop (brake) light.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

That's because you have crap lights. A safety light that works unreliably is likely to get you killed. It sounds like the brake light you choose is no good, sorry.

LEDs... Depends on your voltage. If they're red, use a 3v pack and your resistor's.voltage drop will be lower on the skateboard, giving higher efficiency. if you're stuck with higher voltage, put more LED in series. Every (approximate) 2v you can get another red LED in.

 

[nnamssorxela]

The brake light I "chose" was the one the factory happened to install on the assembly line, sucks for me I guess. Everything on the bike is OEM except the front signals, which are non-existent (and the headlights as mentioned below). You are correct; obviously a safety light that doesn't work is likely to get me killed, hence why I'm trying to resolve all of these issues.

I checked out those sites for LEDs, and most of those lights seemed too big to mount on their own. I guess my best bet is finding some used OEM signals off of a parted bike.

The LEDs I was planning on using are amber. I guess the main concern was heat. Will these guys need any sort of heat sink, or are they fine on their own?

EDIT: While I'm here, I suppose I should attempt to tackle my headlight problem as well. While I was going to keep this to myself to avoid any harsh opinions that seem common towards "modification" like these, I might as well do it right with the input from this knowledgeable group. The issue is that this bike was fully faired. The previous owner got rid of the fairings which got rid of the stock front signals, and headlights. No new front signals were installed, but two cheesy and cheap blue tinted lights from what I can only assume was walmart were installed as headlights. While they are allegedly DOT approved, the light output is poor, and I can't stand the blue.

On my previous bike, I used an OEM xenon projector from an infinity (from the junkyard) and the light output was terrific. I was planning on taking the same approach, but I assume that is illegal as well, and I would rather sort this issue out in a responsible and legal way that also nets me some terrific light output. While I enjoyed the xenon light, I wouldn't mind an LED light if I could achieve the same output. This appears to have been covered many times on this forum, but it seems most of the lights mentioned are either application specific (require buckets, not weather proof, etc.) or are off-road use only. Are there any universal LED or HID lights that are weather proof and somewhat universal with a proper and legal beam pattern that you guys specifically recommend? I'm pretty handy at fabricating my own brackets and mounting methods, so that really isn't issue, but if I'm going to be spending big bucks, I don't want to have to modify anything right out of the box. I'm looking for either 2 smaller 3"-4" lights (one high beam, one low beam), or a single 7" style light. Must be weather proof, have hi/lo beams, and preferably be round in shape.

Suggestions?

-Alex

 

[-Virgil-]

I checked out those sites for LEDs, and most of those lights seemed too big to mount on their own.

There are always these (search page for "ultrabright"); they're just over 2" diameter.

The LEDs I was planning on using are amber. I guess the main concern was heat. Will these guys need any sort of heat sink, or are they fine on their own?

Sorry, we cannot help you build illegal lights.

two cheesy and cheap blue tinted lights from what I can only assume was walmart were installed as headlights. While they are allegedly DOT approved, the light output is poor, and I can't stand the blue.

There are no "DOT approved" lights -- there is no such thing as "DOT approval". And yes, you're wise to be prioritizing removing this unsafe and (yes) illegal pretend-headlight setup.

On my previous bike, I used an OEM xenon projector from an infinity (from the junkyard) and the light output was terrific

If it was a BiXenon projector providing a low and a high beam, that would work OK.

I was planning on taking the same approach, but I assume that is illegal as well

It's a lot "less illegal" than other solutions. The problems involve how to house it so as to exclude dirt and moisture from entering while providing sturdy mounting and durable aim fixation. There are self-housed Xenon (and halogen, and now LED) headlamp modules such as these ready to mount to whatever you want to mount them to; that would be your best (and legal/safe) solution, but they do tend to be more costly than illegal/unsafe solutions.

I wouldn't mind an LED light if I could achieve the same output.

If you were willing to mount a housing to accept a 165 x 100mm, 200mm x 142mm, 7" round, or 5.75" round lamp (these are all standard sizes) then yes, you can have LED headlight with near-HID output (JW Speaker or Truck-Lite units). It will not be cheap, though!

 

[nnamssorxela]

Sorry, we cannot help you build illegal lights.

It's a lot "less illegal" than other solutions. The problems involve how to house it so as to exclude dirt and moisture from entering while providing sturdy mounting and durable aim fixation. There are self-housed Xenon (and halogen, and now LED) headlamp modules such as these ready to mount to whatever you want to mount them to; that would be your best (and legal/safe) solution, but they do tend to be more costly than illegal/unsafe solutions.

If you were willing to mount a housing to accept a 165 x 100mm, 200mm x 142mm, 7" round, or 5.75" round lamp (these are all standard sizes) then yes, you can have LED headlight with near-HID output (JW Speaker or Truck-Lite units). It will not be cheap, though!

Thank you for these wonderful suggestions! That "Susquehanna" page is exactly what I was looking for! I'm drooling over the Bi-LED, but ouch at almost $700! I've also looked at the truck-lite units, but for the price, it looks like xenon is the way to go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the only xenon capable HOUSING listed on that site the HL68139H? I know there were complete xenon assemblies, and halogen assemblies, but some don't list the type, such as the very first one on the page (HL68131 and HL68132). Also, what is the HIR bulb? I looked around and it seems it can potentially be used as a brighter replacement for a halogen, but I assume HIR housings are not properly designed for Xenon applications?

If it's not too frowned upon, I might go look in the junkyard for some OEM xenon/bi-xenon projectors. This way I can get some quality projectors and xenon assemblies for cheap. If you don't mind me beating this subject to death, why exactly would turning a car headlight into a motorcycle headlight be illegal? Is it not essentially the same thing as purchasing one of the assemblies from the site you mentioned and making that into a light (or are you saying even that approach is illegal as well)?

Also, as far as illegal lights, I'm no longer planning on making my own turn signals, but I still want to make something with the LEDs and was curious as to if they would need a heat sink.

I think I'm going to attempt to pull my taillight apart and see if I can't fix it. As it stands, I will need to purchase a new one, so I won't hurt anything if I break it while experimenting. Is there anything I should be on the look out for, or is it going to be an obviously loose wire from the symptoms I mentioned? Finally, I plan on baking it in an oven in an attempt to separate the lens from the housing so I can get to the LED guts. I was planning on starting at ~150 degrees for just a couple of minutes, but I was wondering if I can damage anything LED related at those temperatures.

Thank you again for your time and bearing with my lack of knowledge on the subject of all things lighting.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Also, what is the HIR bulb? I looked around and it seems it can potentially be used as a brighter replacement for a halogen, but I assume HIR housings are not properly designed for Xenon applications?

HIR bulbs are halogen bulbs that meet particular criteria for input wattage and output lumens, essentially. Originally bulbs that reflected the infrared rays emitted by the filament back on to the filament through use of a special coating, a bulb need not have that coating to be an HIR bulb. (It's almost like how "DVD" doesn't really stand for anything, in a way.)

HIR housings, essentially, are halogen housings, as HIR is a filament light source. No housing designed for a filament light source is capable of being used with an arc-discharge source.

 

[-Virgil-]

for the price, it looks like xenon is the way to go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the only xenon capable HOUSING listed on that site the HL68139H?

Xenon units on that page are HL99700, HL99702, HL68139, HL68139H, and HL68140.

why exactly would turning a car headlight into a motorcycle headlight be illegal?

It wouldn't be, if you were to mount the entire headlamp assembly on the motorcycle. What's not OK is taking parts and pieces out of a car headlamp to mount on your motorcycle.

Is it not essentially the same thing as purchasing one of the assemblies from the site you mentioned and making that into a light

Not the same at all. The modules on the linked page aren't for "making into a light". They are self-contained, complete, certified lamp units ready to mount.

plan on baking it in an oven in an attempt to separate the lens from the housing so I can get to the LED guts. I was planning on starting at ~150 degrees for just a couple of minutes, but I was wondering if I can damage anything LED related at those temperatures.

Yup, it'll probably kill or seriously degrade the LEDs.

 

[nnamssorxela]

Xenon units on that page are HL99700, HL99702, HL68139, HL68139H, and HL68140.

It wouldn't be, if you were to mount the entire headlamp assembly on the motorcycle. What's not OK is taking parts and pieces out of a car headlamp to mount on your motorcycle.

Not the same at all. The modules on the linked page aren't for "making into a light". They are self-contained, complete, certified lamp units ready to mount.

Yup, it'll probably kill or seriously degrade the LEDs.

Thanks again for clearing that up. For some reason I was thinking that the units on the linked page were used inside of vehicle headlight housings if that makes any sense. Meaning that Acura or Lexus for example used the hella units in the production of their headlights, but that is not the case as you have mentioned.

The LED tail light is worthless either way, so I guess I'll cut it up and attempt to salvage the LEDs for another project. I'm a bit bummed that an OEM light, especially an LED one failed so early (bike is only 3 years old) but I guess it happens. Some one tried to steal it last night and buggered up my ignition so it appears this is my unlucky week for the motor bike and that stuff just happens sometimes.

I am going to bring up that heat sink question since it has yet to be answered. At what point will I need a heat sink for continuous running Is there a specific wattage that it becomes necessary, does it depend on airflow or containment? I think I'm going to used those LEDs on a skateboard project, or maybe some sort of computer or other lighting in my apartment. I am curious however, if LEDs in general would heat up enough during intermittent use (strobe, flashing, etc). For instance if an LED that would require a heat sink for continuous use were to be used in a flashing scenario, would it still need the heat sink? Again, let me reiterate the fact that I am NOT going to attempt to make my own signals, I am merely curious.

A couple of the buses in my area appear to use the truck-lite LED lamps (potentially grote?) and I might see if I can get them to do a little late night demo for me when no one else is around. I've looked around though, and it seems there are a fair amount of people (on this forum) who are partial to the output of the truck-lites, especially for the price, so again it's hard to stray away from xenon when the results are so great. I do however plan on making some off-road lights in the near future and I REALLY want to get into LEDs as it seems you can get insane output when you aren't limited by the constraints of legality, so I will be back in this subforum eventually. Until then I guess I can attempt to get my feet wet with LEDs and mod some maglites; lots of research ahead of me.

And thanks for the quick guide on HIR bulbs Alaric Darconville, you learn something new every day.

 

[-Virgil-]

LED headlamps are still headed up the difficult side of the development curve. Looking only at standard-sized/modular lamp units, none of the presently-available ones would make my lists of best or most cost-effective options.

 

[nnamssorxela]

I think I found the answer to my original question about heat sinks here should anyone find this thread in a search looking for similar information.

And I have one more stubborn question about xenon lights and reflectors. I know that HID "kits" are considered junk buy most everyone that is a member on this forum, and that the "D1S, D1R, D2S, D2R, D3S, D3R, D4S, D4R, D5S, D5R" are the "only legitimate HID bulbs" as you've mentioned in another post. However in my extremely limited experience I have found that they put out a lot of light compared to a similar or even higher wattage halogen.

Without turning this into a boxing match, would one of these "kits" in any reflector be a low budget way of throwing light out in front of you in an offroad application where one does not have the capability to run 55w or 100w lamps? I have a couple high beam halogen projectors I used in an old project laying around and I was toying with the idea of using them for a dirt bike light where I don't have the ability to run a high wattage light, but a 35watt HID "kit" would be fine as far as wattage goes, and cost me less than a quality halogen bulb. I know the reflector is not "designed" for HID bulbs, but what makes the reflector for a halogen projector so different from a xenon reflector? As far as I can tell they are both smooth reflectors and there is no cut-off to worry about in high beam application.

So without getting too caught up in the "HID kit" thing, can someone explain simply the major differences in reflector housings? I know I've read about the depth of the reflector being a factor, and maybe something about being round versus elliptical, but I'd like to know the real answer without getting too specific. I've seen lots of "offroad" HID lighting, as well as the modular hella lights come in different sizes with some seeming to have tiny reflectors and others using larger shallower reflectors.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

So without getting too caught up in the "HID kit" thing, can someone explain simply the major differences in reflector housings? I know I've read about the depth of the reflector being a factor, and maybe something about being round versus elliptical, but I'd like to know the real answer without getting too specific. I've seen lots of "offroad" HID lighting, as well as the modular hella lights come in different sizes with some seeming to have tiny reflectors and others using larger shallower reflectors.

Simply put, a fixture designed for a filament light source is designed around a light source with a single, precisely placed, hotspot. Fixtures designed for arc-discharge light sources are designed to accommodate not one, but two hotspots, between them being a curved "less than a hotspot".

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Interesting trivia about that light source: holding a new HID lamp in my hands, lighting it with test leads and shining it on a wall, I inverted it - AND THE BEAM CHANGED SHAPE. After my initial surprise, I understood; the same thing would have happened if the light source had been a candle.

 

[bshanahan14rulz]

That is good anecdotal proof that there IS a reason why the manufacturers tell you to run their capsules within a certain angular range centering on horizontal. I still find it amazing that HID projectors are designed with the consideration mentioned by Alaric Darconville, in which the arc is a curved source with hotspots by the electrodes. Engineers can also tweak things like beam "color" by adding components from different parts of the arc. These devices are amazingly precise instruments to be bolted on the front of such a mechanical brute as a car!

 

[-Virgil-]

Yup. Headlamps, even relatively primitive ones and especially high-spec ones, are much higher-precision optical instruments than most people think.

 

[nnamssorxela]

How exactly is the reflector designed for two hot spots? Are there additional curves in the lens that just aren't that noticeable to the untrained eye? Or is it as simple as bulb spacing and a longer (deeper?) reflector?

As far as the scope of my "project," I'm still attempting to do this the correct way. The signals will be oem, 9" apart etc so I'm over that, but I'm still struggling to find a suitable headlamp. Ideally I'd mount a bi-xenon 7" round style light as I like that style and I would prefer xenon, but I'm having difficulty finding anything along those lines. My next option would be two 90mm or ~4" lights, one low beam and one high beam either stacked, or side by side. I think a good "compromise" would be a xenon low beam, and halogen high beam to save money, and reduce the "warm up" lag I might see with a xenon light in the high beam (if this is an issue?).

I'm worried that if I drop the coin on the xenon however, that a single module will not produce the light output I desire, or see in all the pictures from vehicles which I assume have 2 fitted. I want it to be daylight in front of me, with as much to the sides as possible.

Finally, while xenon is potentially my end goal, I will need something in the mean time which brings me back to the HIR bulbs. Are all 9006 and 9005 lamps compatible with the HIR (9011 and 9012 IIRC) bulbs? I believe I read on here that they can produce 80-85% more light than a standard 9006/9005. Again, I'm looking for the best bang for the buck here I guess.

Thanks again for leading me to the correct path.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Finally, while xenon is potentially my end goal, I will need something in the mean time which brings me back to the HIR bulbs. Are all 9006 and 9007 lamps compatible with the HIR (9011 and 9012 IIRC) bulbs? I believe I read on here that they can produce 80-85% more light than a standard 9006/9007. Again, I'm looking for the best bang for the buck here I guess.

You may mean "9005" (HB3), not "9007" (HB5). The 9007 is a dual-filament bulb. A lamp assembly designed for the 9007 (HB5) is NOT a candidate for a 9006, 9005, 9012, or 9011 in any way, shape, or form.

Many headlamp systems that use the 9006 (HB4) in the low beam can be upgraded to the 9012 (HIR2), but those headlamps need to have absolutely perfect lenses, they must have a full cap bulb shield, and they must be aimed properly.