I'm just posting to see if anyone has done any thorough scientific testing of the most commonly available "top of the line" brand name batteries to test their various qualities and general fitness for LED light use. I'm already aware, from what I've learned so far, that Lithiums are the best for most circumstances, when available (and when you can afford it), but has anyone done an efficiency test to see if Lithiums are worth the very high initial cost (I've found that I can buy something like 3 sets of Alkalines for the price of one set of Lithiums)? I'm already convinced that Lithium is best for harsh conditions such as car trunks and glove boxes, but how about general and home use? Also, has anyone done a comparison of the internal resistances of the various big name Alkaline batteries such as Energizer's Titanium or Duracell's Ultra so that we might know which batteries would be best for the most high drain LED flashlights? Also is there a runtime difference between all the different brands of Lithium AAs or are they pretty much the same? Another useful test would be to test the big name batteries to see which ones would have a life advantage over the others when used in LED flashlights. With the new Arc AAA Flashlight coming out, it would also be useful to have all of the above data for AAA as well as AA batteries. While I'm mentioning the upcoming Arc light, does anyone happen to know if there are any manufacturers of Lithium AAA batteries anywhere or do they not make Lithiums in this size? I guess what I'm getting at with this post is to find out if anyone has tested the batteries that we use as thoroughly as the various LED flashlights have been tested. If someone were to compile all of this info into a chart form, I believe it would be immensely useful to all of us flashaholics for the next time we go to buy our next set of batteries to make sure we are getting the absolute best bang for the buck.
Battery comparison.
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Gransee
Flashlight Enthusiast
I would love to help as much as possible with this.
From our own tests, we found that the big difference in price among regular alkaline does not reflect the small differences in performance.
For the AAA size, you can spend as little at 35 cents (or less) for a Sanyo/etc alkaline or as much as 1 buck a piece for the energizer titaniums/duracell ultras. However, the difference in run time was a half hour (using the Arc flashlight as the testbed).
I have not yet seen any Lithium size AAA's.
Lithiums perform better in cold weather, provide about twice the run time and have a longer shelf life. They also cost about 5-10 times more than common sized alkalines like the AA and AAA. I don't think they are worth the extra cost for use in most small flashlights.
Lithiums do weird things in small keychain flashlights. Because of the higher internal cell resistance, they loose their brightness rather quickly (although they then burn dimmly forever it seems).
LED's are more efficient at lower tempuratures- which helps offset the drop in alkalines performance.
I have dug the Arc flashlight out of a snowbank in Flagstaff and even with safeway brand alkalines, it was bright. Maybe 5% dimmer, but not readily noticable. After holding in my hand for a minute or two it warmed up to where the alkalines where happy.
What are lithiums good for in opinion? Here's some uses:
- You need a light you can stuff someplace and forget for about 5-10 years
- Big lights designed to be used with gloves in cold climates (the gloves keep them from benefiting from warmth of your hands), also a big light is less likely to be stored in your warm pocket (or on your key ring)
- Lights so small that you need a expensive battery to make them work
More to come...
-Peter Gransee
From our own tests, we found that the big difference in price among regular alkaline does not reflect the small differences in performance.
For the AAA size, you can spend as little at 35 cents (or less) for a Sanyo/etc alkaline or as much as 1 buck a piece for the energizer titaniums/duracell ultras. However, the difference in run time was a half hour (using the Arc flashlight as the testbed).
I have not yet seen any Lithium size AAA's.
Lithiums perform better in cold weather, provide about twice the run time and have a longer shelf life. They also cost about 5-10 times more than common sized alkalines like the AA and AAA. I don't think they are worth the extra cost for use in most small flashlights.
Lithiums do weird things in small keychain flashlights. Because of the higher internal cell resistance, they loose their brightness rather quickly (although they then burn dimmly forever it seems).
LED's are more efficient at lower tempuratures- which helps offset the drop in alkalines performance.
I have dug the Arc flashlight out of a snowbank in Flagstaff and even with safeway brand alkalines, it was bright. Maybe 5% dimmer, but not readily noticable. After holding in my hand for a minute or two it warmed up to where the alkalines where happy.
What are lithiums good for in opinion? Here's some uses:
- You need a light you can stuff someplace and forget for about 5-10 years
- Big lights designed to be used with gloves in cold climates (the gloves keep them from benefiting from warmth of your hands), also a big light is less likely to be stored in your warm pocket (or on your key ring)
- Lights so small that you need a expensive battery to make them work
More to come...
-Peter Gransee
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Hi!
I made some battery tests last summer when I needed D cells with high performance. I did some test runs draining Energizers, Vartas (knowhn in the US?), Duracells and Duracells Ultra at constant current.
It was obvious that the capacity is nearly the same when you dont go for high currents.
When you have to draw a lot of current (1.7 Amps in my case) there is a BIG difference between low cost alkalines on the one hand, Duracells and Energizers in the middle (they are nearly the same), and the DUracells Ultra on the other (EXCELLENT high current capability).
You will also not notice the differences very much if you dont put your light on for a long time (f.e. 2 minutes and then 10 minutes off), because the cheap batteries recover their inner resistance then.
But to go for AA cells (the only size where Lithiums at 1.5V are made):
The AA cells have the best innere resistance for their size. They can nearly give as much current as D cells, what results in the better development of these cells (most sold batteries).
But if you need real high currents ( 800 mA+) then you should have a look for Lithium cells, because they dont drop their voltage over discharge time.
Another advantage/disadvantage is their slightly higher voltage (about 0.1 to 0.2 V per cell). You will like this in a LED flashlight, but in a indescendant flashie it will make your bulb burn out faster.
My advice is:
The Lithiums are worth their money only in seldomly used, really powerful flashlights (or other devices).
Otherwise, even if they last only half as long due to the devices high current, the regular alkalines are cheaper to use.
I personally like the Duracell Ultra and Duracell batteries most, but Energizer will be the same.
"No name" alkalines (like the german Varta) are not bought anymore from me since my last test (they were really ugly, a D cell of them could only give about 700 mA without dropping too much
).
I will do a large test the next weeks comparing the different batteries at differnet currents.
Hope, I could help a little....
I made some battery tests last summer when I needed D cells with high performance. I did some test runs draining Energizers, Vartas (knowhn in the US?), Duracells and Duracells Ultra at constant current.
It was obvious that the capacity is nearly the same when you dont go for high currents.
When you have to draw a lot of current (1.7 Amps in my case) there is a BIG difference between low cost alkalines on the one hand, Duracells and Energizers in the middle (they are nearly the same), and the DUracells Ultra on the other (EXCELLENT high current capability).
You will also not notice the differences very much if you dont put your light on for a long time (f.e. 2 minutes and then 10 minutes off), because the cheap batteries recover their inner resistance then.
But to go for AA cells (the only size where Lithiums at 1.5V are made):
The AA cells have the best innere resistance for their size. They can nearly give as much current as D cells, what results in the better development of these cells (most sold batteries).
But if you need real high currents ( 800 mA+) then you should have a look for Lithium cells, because they dont drop their voltage over discharge time.
Another advantage/disadvantage is their slightly higher voltage (about 0.1 to 0.2 V per cell). You will like this in a LED flashlight, but in a indescendant flashie it will make your bulb burn out faster.
My advice is:
The Lithiums are worth their money only in seldomly used, really powerful flashlights (or other devices).
Otherwise, even if they last only half as long due to the devices high current, the regular alkalines are cheaper to use.
I personally like the Duracell Ultra and Duracell batteries most, but Energizer will be the same.
"No name" alkalines (like the german Varta) are not bought anymore from me since my last test (they were really ugly, a D cell of them could only give about 700 mA without dropping too much
I will do a large test the next weeks comparing the different batteries at differnet currents.
Hope, I could help a little....
The only light I run lithium in all the time is the Infinity. Since they run for so long anyway (longer I`m told with lithiums...I have never replaced mine yet!) I find it worth it to get the extra (1.7 volt) brightness. Every once in a while I`ll put lithiums in my other lights but only to take them back out later...just to expensive...generally I buy whatever alkiline happens to be on sale...store brands usually...really haven`t noticed much difference in run time...in LED lights anyway.
Wow! You guys are great! Thank you Gransee and Phantomas2002 for the great info. This is just the sort of info that I was interested in and couldn't find anywhere. One thing that nobody brought up, but there may be no good way of testing, is this though. Is there a way to test and see which batteries are more prone to leak if left in a light for an extended period of time (such as an emergency kit or glove box)? I know I've had some "off brand" batteries in the past that have destroyed various electronics of mine after sitting up because they leaked (Can't remember for sure if they were Alkalines or not though). Does anyone have any experiences they would like to share about which batteries are more prone to leak, or which batteries are built the toughest? I know one thing to be a fact in this issue though that might help others in choosing batteries, and that is the fact that a lot of off brand batteries are really brand name batteries, but with a different label, such as a store's label. I only wish there was a web site that kept up with these things so that we could know who made a particular "off brand" battery when we get ready to buy. Also, are Lithiums any better about not leaking than Alkalines? Has anyone ever had a Lithium leak, ever? Phantomas2002: Did you ever include the Energizer Titanium in your test? Is it the equal of a Duracell Ultra? Also, do cheap off brand batteries loose their effectiveness more quickly over time than brand name batteries? Does anyone else have any battery experiences that would help to shine more light on the subject of how to get the most bang for our battery bucks?
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
The only reason why I didn't test a Energizer Titanium yet is: It isn't available in Germany yet
But I think (their website isnt good..
) it shoud be equivalent to the Duracell Ultras.
For the leaking:
Modern alkaline cells should not leak, even after many years. Zinc-Coal-batteries WILL leak after some time.
I suppose the "no name" alkalines wont leak also, as most of them are manufactured by the large batt corps, but to be sure, I would use only Duracells (or perhaps Energizers) in an emergency light.
The Lithiums wont leak at all and they will keep their capacity for the longest time (after 10 years they still have over 80% of their original capacity). So these would be the optimal emergency-flashlight choice for a LED light. For an indescendant light I would use Duracell Ultras (I would be anxious the Lithiums kill the bulb earlier due to their higher voltage).
Hope I could help....
But I think (their website isnt good..
For the leaking:
Modern alkaline cells should not leak, even after many years. Zinc-Coal-batteries WILL leak after some time.
I suppose the "no name" alkalines wont leak also, as most of them are manufactured by the large batt corps, but to be sure, I would use only Duracells (or perhaps Energizers) in an emergency light.
The Lithiums wont leak at all and they will keep their capacity for the longest time (after 10 years they still have over 80% of their original capacity). So these would be the optimal emergency-flashlight choice for a LED light. For an indescendant light I would use Duracell Ultras (I would be anxious the Lithiums kill the bulb earlier due to their higher voltage).
Hope I could help....
vcal
Flashlight Enthusiast
In my long experience with consumer type batteries, usually the only ones with that tendency are the zinc-chloride-labled as "Heavy Duty"(what a joke!) batts -Although, 2 b on the safe side, I like to remove cells used in xpensive devices that probably won't be used in,-say...3 months
mynickelsworth
mynickelsworth
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
I agree, something labeled "heavy duty" is highly suspicious!!!
Steelwolf
Flashlight Enthusiast
Just to add my $0.02 worth.
Alkalines, even the "modern" ones, do leak. I have a box at home where I place batteries that are too discharged to be used in high drain devices any longer but could still be used in low drain devices like analogue clocks. They leaked. Fortunately, most of the time, the leak and subsequent corrosion was preceeded by a noticeable "dampness" or oiliness when I held the battery. Also, the battery looks like it is wet underneath the lable. In other cases, I've seen alkalines leak in camera flashes, whilst in the packaging of the Buck brand name flashlights at a local military surplus store, in my several of my torches and more.
On the Lithium side, I have not had any of them leak, whether AA sized or otherwise. The longest I've had AA lithiums is about 1 year. In that time, some of my alkalines which have been partially discharged have leaked. Not all though. BTW, I which other companies manufacture AA lithiums. I've only ever found Energizer.
With regard to battery life, I've only ever paid attention to high drain devices. (How much more attention one pays when one can almost see the current pouring from the cell.) In this respect, I've found that the Duracell batteries last for a little longer than Energizers, though that is not immediately noticeable. And I'm not talking about the Ultras or Titaniums because I've not found reason enough to pay that extra. Naturally lithium AAs outlast both brands and provides practically instant refresh on my flashguns.
But is it worth it? For the instant refresh in my flashguns, yes. For the long shelf life in emergency equipment, yes. For typical torches, no. You can buy a whole lot more run time worth of alkalines for the same price, and I'm not even looking at the bulk packs.
Alkalines, even the "modern" ones, do leak. I have a box at home where I place batteries that are too discharged to be used in high drain devices any longer but could still be used in low drain devices like analogue clocks. They leaked. Fortunately, most of the time, the leak and subsequent corrosion was preceeded by a noticeable "dampness" or oiliness when I held the battery. Also, the battery looks like it is wet underneath the lable. In other cases, I've seen alkalines leak in camera flashes, whilst in the packaging of the Buck brand name flashlights at a local military surplus store, in my several of my torches and more.
On the Lithium side, I have not had any of them leak, whether AA sized or otherwise. The longest I've had AA lithiums is about 1 year. In that time, some of my alkalines which have been partially discharged have leaked. Not all though. BTW, I which other companies manufacture AA lithiums. I've only ever found Energizer.
With regard to battery life, I've only ever paid attention to high drain devices. (How much more attention one pays when one can almost see the current pouring from the cell.) In this respect, I've found that the Duracell batteries last for a little longer than Energizers, though that is not immediately noticeable. And I'm not talking about the Ultras or Titaniums because I've not found reason enough to pay that extra. Naturally lithium AAs outlast both brands and provides practically instant refresh on my flashguns.
But is it worth it? For the instant refresh in my flashguns, yes. For the long shelf life in emergency equipment, yes. For typical torches, no. You can buy a whole lot more run time worth of alkalines for the same price, and I'm not even looking at the bulk packs.
vcal
Flashlight Enthusiast
Steelwolf,
Just out of curiosity, what brand of alkalines are u using?
Just out of curiosity, what brand of alkalines are u using?
Brock
Flashaholic
We use lots of AA and AAA cells at work in wireless transmitters. We regularly use up to 70 a show. On the average I see about one bad alkaline cell a week, but as Steelwolf mentioned they are usually just "wet". We toss them right away and clean out the unit. Mostly we use Procell, the commercial version of Duracell. I have seen Energizers leak also. A lot of us carry lithium lights and no one I know of has ever had one of them leak, not to say they can't but I haven't heard of it yet.
Brock
Brock
That's interesting. From what everyone is saying, it might just justify the cost of going Lithium on very expensive flashlights just to make sure that they never will have a battery leak in them and destroy them. Is there no one out there that has ever had a Lithium leak so far? I just happened to think of another question to. Is there currently any way to charge a normal AA Lithium battery? What about using a charger that will charge Alkaline batteries? I know, from personal experience, that good quality Alkaline batteries will charge in a charger that is designed to only charge the rechargeable alkalines. I may have been taking chances, but I've charged a couple dozen so far and none have leaked. They took a good charge to. I don't know if I would recommend this to others, but if you feel like taking a chance, have a cheap charger such as the $10.00 Raovac (just in case you ruin the charger), and feel like saving some money, then this is something to consider because regular Alkaline batteries are much cheaper than the rechargeable variety. So far I've only had one alkaline battery explode for me and it was a rechargeable one! I think it was due to an electrical storm though and not the fault of the charger or battery. In case you are wondering, it was nothing dangerous or anything. It sounded like a firecracker going off, but it did no damage to anything other than the charger and of course the battery itself because they design the chargers for such eventualities. I had to buy a new charger because of it though because it got acid all in it.
JoeyL
Enlightened
I've had a few pairs of lithium AA's stay fresh in emergency lights for over 5 years. However, I've also had two pairs of duracell 123's as backups which were nearly depleted after 7 years with no use, cool storage conditions, in plastic bags. I'd still prefer lithiums as backups but you need to remember to cycle them every few years. Alkalines are fine for backup if you make it a yearly ritual to replace them, and I' leave them in a plastic bag taped to the equipment.
vcal
Flashlight Enthusiast
I've been successfully recharging regular alkalines since the early '80s, and have Rarely had them leak,(I would guess about 1 in 50), and these cells have been used in high drain conditions too. (like a Casio pocket color TV), and they still didn't leak.
By the way, in test after test,
the regular recharged alkalines
did even BETTER than my RayoVac Renewals did!
(although the number of meaningful recharges on Duracell et.al. was limited to 4 or 5 times).
-Last thing,I wouldn't recommend attempting to recharge a standard Li cell in any type of charger.
By the way, in test after test,
the regular recharged alkalines
did even BETTER than my RayoVac Renewals did!
-Last thing,I wouldn't recommend attempting to recharge a standard Li cell in any type of charger.
Steelwolf
Flashlight Enthusiast
Videocal, most of the alkalines I use are Duracell (the version before the Ultra), and sometimes Energizer (not the Titanium version). Rarely have I seen other brands, let alone used them.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
i've had energizers leak a bit in my cd players remote but was lucky enough to clean out the green stuff before it became a real problem. about 3 years sitting in seldom used remote. as far as batts for around the house led lights, the kids portable cd players etc. nimh/nicads seem to work for me. although i keep lithiums in my eternalight and brinkman just in case, recheargeables only make sense, i cant see using alkalines just to throw them away eventually!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by videocal:
I've been successfully recharging regular alkalines since the early '80s, and have Rarely had them leak,(I would guess about 1 in 50), and these cells have been used in high drain conditions too. (like a Casio pocket color TV), and they still didn't leak.
By the way, in test after test,
the regular recharged alkalines
did even BETTER than my RayoVac Renewals did!
(although the number of meaningful recharges on Duracell et.al. was limited to 4 or 5 times).
-Last thing,I wouldn't recommend attempting to recharge a standard Li cell in any type of charger.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've noticed the same thing. The non-rechargeables will charge fine, but don't stand up to as many charges as a alkaline that is designed to be rechargable. Still, I belive that the non-rechargeables come out to be cheaper to use in the end becuase of the much higher initial cost of of the rechargeable alkalines. Another thing to consider to is the fact that regular alkalines work better with LED lights than the rechargeable variety (at least that's what most people seem to be saying). From what others have said it has to do with the different internal resistences between the rechargeable and non-rechargeable.
I've been successfully recharging regular alkalines since the early '80s, and have Rarely had them leak,(I would guess about 1 in 50), and these cells have been used in high drain conditions too. (like a Casio pocket color TV), and they still didn't leak.
By the way, in test after test,
the regular recharged alkalines
did even BETTER than my RayoVac Renewals did!
-Last thing,I wouldn't recommend attempting to recharge a standard Li cell in any type of charger.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've noticed the same thing. The non-rechargeables will charge fine, but don't stand up to as many charges as a alkaline that is designed to be rechargable. Still, I belive that the non-rechargeables come out to be cheaper to use in the end becuase of the much higher initial cost of of the rechargeable alkalines. Another thing to consider to is the fact that regular alkalines work better with LED lights than the rechargeable variety (at least that's what most people seem to be saying). From what others have said it has to do with the different internal resistences between the rechargeable and non-rechargeable.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by franken:
i've had energizers leak a bit in my cd players remote but was lucky enough to clean out the green stuff before it became a real problem. about 3 years sitting in seldom used remote. as far as batts for around the house led lights, the kids portable cd players etc. nimh/nicads seem to work for me. although i keep lithiums in my eternalight and brinkman just in case, recheargeables only make sense, i cant see using alkalines just to throw them away eventually!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that Nimh & Nicads are great for a lot of things and it would be a foolish waste to not use them when possible (I use my Nimh all the time), but for most light uses their poor shelf life make them a poor choice. Nimh will only keep a "good" charge for a couple of weeks and Nicads about a month. The solution that I've found to work very well, so far as flashlights are concered, is to always leave a set of NiMh on charge and when I need to use a flashlight for an extended period of time, I take out the Alkalines and put in the NiMh. So long as you leave a set of NiMh in the charger all the time, instead of leaving them in the flashlight, you will always have a fresh set that is ready for use in a power outtage. I like the Boy Scout motto as far as keeping a fresh set of batteries on hand is concerned. "Be Prepared!"
i've had energizers leak a bit in my cd players remote but was lucky enough to clean out the green stuff before it became a real problem. about 3 years sitting in seldom used remote. as far as batts for around the house led lights, the kids portable cd players etc. nimh/nicads seem to work for me. although i keep lithiums in my eternalight and brinkman just in case, recheargeables only make sense, i cant see using alkalines just to throw them away eventually!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that Nimh & Nicads are great for a lot of things and it would be a foolish waste to not use them when possible (I use my Nimh all the time), but for most light uses their poor shelf life make them a poor choice. Nimh will only keep a "good" charge for a couple of weeks and Nicads about a month. The solution that I've found to work very well, so far as flashlights are concered, is to always leave a set of NiMh on charge and when I need to use a flashlight for an extended period of time, I take out the Alkalines and put in the NiMh. So long as you leave a set of NiMh in the charger all the time, instead of leaving them in the flashlight, you will always have a fresh set that is ready for use in a power outtage. I like the Boy Scout motto as far as keeping a fresh set of batteries on hand is concerned. "Be Prepared!"
vcal
Flashlight Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spidey82:
this is the first time i heard someone charging regular alkaline batt like energizer
r u sure it is safe?????
so hoe much charge compare to the orginal level does it hold after charging???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, with a special charger you can safely and efficiently recharge almost any brand of alkaline batteries. To do this
You need to realize two things:
1. For best results don't run th cell down by more than about 75%
2. Promptly recharge the cell-especially after heavy drains! -don't wait a week...
-if you do, the chemicals will degrade & results won't be as good..
As far as ability to hold that recharge, I have noticed over the years that Duracell has been the best, (95% retention), until you have recharged more than 5-6 times..
It's really a shame that people all over the world throw away billions of batteries (and $$) that are still capable of giving many more hours of powerful use...
**any brand will work, but it has always puzzled me why the "bunny" brand gives the least # of recharges (2-3)
this is the first time i heard someone charging regular alkaline batt like energizer
r u sure it is safe?????
so hoe much charge compare to the orginal level does it hold after charging???
Yes, with a special charger you can safely and efficiently recharge almost any brand of alkaline batteries. To do this
You need to realize two things:
1. For best results don't run th cell down by more than about 75%
2. Promptly recharge the cell-especially after heavy drains! -don't wait a week...
-if you do, the chemicals will degrade & results won't be as good..
As far as ability to hold that recharge, I have noticed over the years that Duracell has been the best, (95% retention), until you have recharged more than 5-6 times..
It's really a shame that people all over the world throw away billions of batteries (and $$) that are still capable of giving many more hours of powerful use...
**any brand will work, but it has always puzzled me why the "bunny" brand gives the least # of recharges (2-3)
