Best Tap Water Filter On Demand System?

[LuxLuthor]

Well installing one of these is not for the faint of heart. It was kind of fun now that it is all done, but many many hours were spent. I knew I had a challenge when I wanted a reliable cold water source, which made me see the bad shape the plumbing under the sink was in:

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I found that my 92psi water pressure exceeded the 80psi limit of these filter systems. I needed to install a pressure reducing valve. Trying to figure out all the connections to make this work were a bit of a challenge with all the thread sizes, etc. Finally got it all soldered, bolted and not leaking. Had to take out the garbage disposal, and spend a while on my back to get here:

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Then the next challenge was drilling a 5/8" hole through the stainless steel sink without having a larger 1/2" drill. Unbelievable how hard this stainless steel was. Regular bits were worthless, even starting out with very small ones. Ultimately a 1/4" titanium bit made this hole, and after about 30 mins & oil to keep bit cool, this counterbit $8 finally broke through:

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What seemed like hours later, and more time on my back, I finally had the nice quality water spout. This will stay on continuous, or short pushes, and swings in all directions.

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OK, then finally I can hook every thing up, and start the water. Looks good, no leaks, so let water purge through all the filters before filling the pressurized white holding tank. Tried to organize the 4 plastic tubes and cable tie them off:

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When I looked again after 10 mins, one of the damn fittings at reverse osmosis had a slow leak. Had to undo all the pretty cable ties, tighten up the fitting, got rid of all leaks and after 2 hours of filling the tank, finally put it all back in where it is now done, and working properly.

I haven't tasted the water yet because I wanted to fill the tank twice and empty it completely....so will do the taste test later today. After all the challenges and time, I lost my interest in testing it without the RO filter to save water. I just hooked it all up the one way to get it done...so I'll never know if 3 filters would have given a good enough result. I do feel better having more complete filtering though as I read about the increasingly bad condition of the nation's water supply.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Well the RO water was chosen by 6 people today compared to bottled spring, & city water, myself included. Absolutely no aftertaste.

 

[Sigman]

Mission accomplished then eh? :thumbsup:

 

[LuxLuthor]

Yeah...and a worthy mission it was. I did not fully realize how it worked, and now understand all those raising concerns about the reverse osmosis filter (which is the 4th of the 5 filters) being wasteful.

Cold intake water goes to the 4th RO semi-permeable membrane, and for every gallon it lets through for drinking, it wastes 3 to waste drain. In my photos you can see the black tubing going into the white drain pipe.

However, there is a pressure shutoff once the white holding tank is full, preventing any ongoing water wasting. So if we drink 2 gallons a day, then only 6 gallons are wasted, not the larger amounts that earlier posters reported. I do appreciate where people were coming from in terms of conservation, but that 6 gallons is less than a single toilet flush in my house.

 

[BB]

However, there is a pressure shutoff once the white holding tank is full, preventing any ongoing water wasting. So if we drink 2 gallons a day, then only 6 gallons are wasted, not the larger amounts that earlier posters reported. I do appreciate where people were coming from in terms of conservation, but that 6 gallons is less than a single toilet flush in my house.

Regarding the toilet--The 1.5 gallon flush models (mandatory in California) do save quite a bit of water (and the newer, well designed ones, do not need unstopping near as much as the older models did).

I installed RO years ago in my home--Liked the water, but over time the leaks (especially, when changing the filters) and, finally, the problems with the flow control valve (water hammer, and eventually failing to shut off water dump to drain when the tank was full---wasting a large amount of water unless manual shutdown) made RO (at least the "inexpensive unit" I had) just not worth the hassles.

None of the "standard" RO or Water Filters are certified for biologically unsafe water--and they can contain/provide sites for growth of bacterial colonies (especially after Chlorine has been filtered out (such as Legionella bacteria). You would need a UV-C based system (or similar) to address biological issues in the water supply.

Legionella will grow in water at temperatures from 20 °C to 50 °C (68 °F to 122 °F). However, the bacteria reproduce at the greatest rate in stagnant water at temperatures of 35 °C to 46 °C (95 °F to 115 °F).

Having a few gallons of non-chlorinated water sitting under a warm and stuffy sink just seems like it is counter productive (pun unintended) to water safety (if one is concerned about infectious diseases).

If I recall correctly (from our old RO system), you are supposed to disinfect the filter and tank assemblies every so often with Chlorine because of the problems with bacteriological growths (and Legionella is not easy to kill with chlorine either).

In the end, I just replaced the whole mess with a standard disposable water filter (with activated carbon for taste) and change it ~6 months (when the flow rate is reduced). And pretend my water is safe (not that I have any indication that it is not safe).

My test on "water quality taste--is to let the water sit for a day or two in a plastic container (such as a sports bottle). Our tap water tastes great out of the faucet, but after a few hours--the flavor starts to turn. Using any simple activated carbon filter--and the water can sit for days in the bottles and still taste fine.

And, apparently, (mostly hot?) water supply contamination is not a small problem (PDF). From testing the water supplies of 20 hospitals around the US:

results. Legionella pneumophila and Legionella anisa were isolated from 14 (70%) of 20 hospital water systems. Of 676 environmental samples, 198 (29%) were positive for Legionella species. High-level colonization of the water system (30% or more of the distal outlets were positive for L. pneumophila) was demonstrated for 6 (43%) of the 14 hospitals with positive findings. L. pneumophila serogroup 1 was detected in 5 of these 6 hospitals, whereas 1 hospital was colonized with L. pneumophila serogroup 5. A total of 633 patients were evaluated for Legionella pneumonia from 12 (60%) of the 20 hospitals: 377 by urinary antigen testing and 577 by sputum culture. Hospital-acquired Legionella pneumonia was identified in 4 hospitals, all of which were hospitals with L. pneumophila serogroup 1 found in 30% or more of the distal outlets. No cases of disease du e to other serogroups or species (L. anisa) were identified.

On the good side--the new chloramine type disinfectants that many water districts are switching over to (from chlorine) is more effective against Legionella.

-Bill :tinfoil: :sigh:

 

[binky]

Good work, Lux.

I guess you didn't screw the bracket into the side of the cabinet because you've got to leave room to unscrew those filter housings. It'd be convenient to have the bracket screwed in when you do it, though, but maybe you can do one at a time to keep it propped up by the other housings.

I didn't have enough room under my sink at all, so I put the system in my basement below the sink area. That turned out to be convenient for a couple reasons -- I can get to the housings easier and I was able to run a tapped feed over to my refrigerator for the ice maker. Clearest ice I've ever had!

Happy gulping!

A note on maintenance -- My instructions call for using bleach to clean the system. I talked with my local R/O system pro's about that. They said they use hydrogen peroxide instead. That doesn't damage the filter so much and the byproduct is simply water so it's a safer cleaning method. I'm not sure it's as effective a broad-spectrum cleanser, but that's what I've been using. Another thing they mentioned is to be sure to keep up with the cleaning maintenance because without the city's chlorine in the water I've taken out the one thing that keeps gunk from growing in the pipes.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

BB, thanks for the Legionella link.

Lux, may I ask what the whole RO package cost?

 

[LuxLuthor]

BB, good information, thanks. It is good to hear that low water volume toilets are working better. My main objection to that federal imposition is that it is not an issue if you live in an area without a water shortage. While I understand something like electricity which is so interconnected beyond your own community, water reservoir/water supplies remain local.

Interestingly, nothing was in this "spartan" www.filterdirect.com RO kit or obvious at their website about the need for disinfection. I will follow up with that, and realize it is very important to address. It has me now thinking of just getting this $65 UV add-on to go as last stage before faucet.

Remember, I was using the typical $60/month 5 gallon water jugs that plop into the water holder which I forget to get replaced, and they don't volunteer to drop off a new one on an annual schedule. At $720/year, I can come out ahead even replacing the entire RO system annually if I wanted.

There are also no quality analysis guidelines for bottled water...so I was getting less and less comfortable using that system...especially when I consider the increasingly lackadaisical attitudes towards doing quality work I see in the younger generation. After seeing the video of the kids taking a bath in the kitchen sink at Burger King, followed a few month later with same abuse at KFC, I'm picturing them playing similar tricks in my spring water supplies.

If I run into hassles with leaks down the road, I may tire of this system also...but so far it is giving me what I most desired, a convenient, purifed tasteless water supply that I have control over. The easiest way for me to see if there is any water running with this down the road if the full tank shutoff stops working is to watch the water meter wheel. Right now it is at a dead stop. If that shutoff stops working, they have this $20 replacement kit which they recommend using every 1-2 years anyway.

Sub_Umbra, I started with this $35 countertop filter that Sigman recommended, and it was not adequate. I called the company, and they offered to give me full credit including shipping for that unit towards this $140 RO unit, so it ended up costing me another $105.

Starting from scratch if you need the pressure regulator (my 92psi was above the 80psi limit), including plumbing supplies you saw in my photos, and shipping...figure around $200.

Thereafter, the 4 filter kit is $34 annually. The RO membrane every 2-3 years is $60, and that shutoff valve kit is $20...so figure that averages out to about $75/year.

Oh yeah, and start saving $720/year on water delivery...and if you want to save your own portable water bottles for short trips. I love how this faucet swings over from in the sink, to off the counter, so I can park a 3 Liter jug under it on a stool and let it fill away.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Thanks for the figures, Lux.

I think it is vital that people begin to take responsibility for the quality of their family's water supply. Congrats to you and your's.

Unfortunately, clean water is not and will not ever become anything beyond a PR issue for any politician from here on in. The only "solutions" to virtually all clean water issues governments face are rapidly becoming plot driven. It is beyond politics.

 

[speedjunkie]

I had a water conditioner installed for the house last year and had them install a reverse osmosis system in the kitchen. The RO systems are supposed to be the best water available for drinking....

I've seen RO systems for a reasonable price at my local Costco...might be worth checking out..

 

[LuxLuthor]

I had the talk about disinfecting with Oscar in the www.filterdirect.com tech support area. Nice guy. He sort of convinced me that there is very little concern with city chlorinated water coming in, and once it goes through my system there is just the 1 last finishing charcoal filter and the water in the tank and going to the faucet which is turning over regularly. Hard to see how legionella or another significant organism is going to get introduced into my sealed system especially when I'm changing the filters at least once a year.

When I compare it to the bottled water jugs I had been using, there is a lot more possible ways that can get contaminated before I get it delivered, then it sits for 3-4 weeks before I rotate the oldest bottles into the dispensor.

He said the UV disenfection system was mainly for people using their own well water, and usually was hooked up before the filter system. What do you guys think that are using these systems about this topic?

 

[Norm]

Not wanting to put your system down Lux but I find RO water very flat and lifeless, I've had ROs before (all attached to dialysis machines).
By the way they all had some way of bleaching to disinfect either manual or automatic.
The hospital I currently dialyse at pumps all the waste RO water first to a holding tank then to the roof of the hospital where it is used to flush the toilets, obviously a very large system with thousands of litres of waste water every day.
Norm

 

[BB]

I am not sure that there is a problem with Legionella either--and I never disinfected my old RO unit either... Problem is that you don't know what you don't know.

If everyone is healthy and not at at the extremes of the age range (baby/80+)--there probably is little for the average person to worry about.

The interesting thing is that most of the problem with Legionella appears to be related to hot water heaters / water systems (and other A/C and water based cooling towers, etc.)...

Cold water and Gas Fired water heaters appears to be less of a problem (gas water heaters get the bottom of the tank and center stack quite hot--electric seems not so much).

Every time I look into the issue--I get a desire to turn up my gas water heater to 165F for a day and run the water through all of the fixtures (and shower) to disinfect my water system (I keep my system hot water tank sort of cool for energy efficiency)...

* 70 to 80 °C (158 to 176 °F): Disinfection range
* At 66 °C (151 °F): Legionellae die within 2 minutes
* At 60 °C (140 °F): Legionellae die within 32 minutes
* At 55 °C (131 °F): Legionellae die within 5 to 6 hours
* Above 50 °C (122 °F): They can survive but do not multiply
* 35 to 46 °C (95 to 115 °F): Ideal growth range
* 20 to 50 °C (68 to 122 °F): Legionellae growth range
* Below 20 °C (68 °F): Legionellae can survive but are dormant

Legionella is relatively resistant to chlorine:

A study was conducted to compare the susceptibility of legionellae and coliforms to disinfection by chlorine. The chlorine residuals used were similar to concentrations that might be found in the distribution systems of large public potable water supplies. The effects of various chlorine concentrations, temperatures, and pH levels were considered. A number of different Legionella strains, both environmental and clinical, were tested. The results indicate that legionellae are much more resistant to chlorine than are coliform bacteria. At 21 degrees C, pH 7.6, and 0.1 mg of free chlorine residual per liter, a 99% kill of L. pneumophila was achieved within 40 min, compared with less than 1 min for Escherichia coli. The observed resistance is enhanced as conditions for disinfection become less optimal. The required contact time for the removal of L. pneumophilia was twice as long at 4 degrees C than it was at 21 degrees C. These data suggest that legionellae can survive low levels of chlorine for relatively long periods of time.

If 30% of the hospitals (hot water system) and 40-60% of the cooling towers (small cooling towers are real common in parts of Asia with home and office A/C systems)--It just makes me want to drag out that old " :tinfoil: " ...

-Bill 😱 :shrug:

 

[LuxLuthor]

Norm, maybe you had a different setup, but I don't find this water as flat or lifeless, nor would I expect that adding some unknown amounts of minerals &/or other contaminants to "spring" or city treated water does anything good. I can't imagine sampling waters used in hospitals with dialysis machine systems. Nothing smells or tastes normal in that environment.

I have now had a dozen people taste this water, the remaining spring water, and a few brave souls the tap water. All but three of the people prefer this RO water, and the remaining three could not tell any difference from the bottled dispensor water.

This was always a goal of finding something that tasted the same as, or better than the bottled water @ $60/month. I didn't try all the counter top water filtration & pitcher setups that seem to work for many posters in this thread, but there was so little improvement from the single cartridge, I followed the refund motivated RO from www.filterdirect.com as a "what the heck, let's try it and see" approach.

So far, other than the install time...I would highly recommend this setup to anyone. It definitely tastes "cleaner" than the spring water, so we are just using up the last two bottles.

The disinfecting question--assuming something survived the city treatment and chlorinated water coming to the first filter, it's hard to imagine how a bacteria/virus is going to get past the filters and through the RO, let alone survive in a nutrient free environment. Without a nutrient source, and remaining a sealed system with regular water running through it--I'm not seeing the risk.

Air conditioners are open to airborne dust, mold, insects, and moisture. All that gets collected in the open cooling vents and mesh filters, so that's a whole other risk category.

I'll keep reading, taking my vitamin/mineral supplements, and mainly see how the system looks when I check and change filters in 9-12 months.

 

[litew8]

I hope i'm not repeating anything thats been said, but an RO system wastes a lot of water. Something like , for every 3 gallons, you get one gallon of pure water. I use an Aqua Space filter system, so far so good.

I grew up on St Thomas USVI, all we had was a cistern, so no water was wasted.

Al

 

[springnr]

Bad taste? --? I guess some people use an RO filter by it self???
I've only heard of this for fish tanks.

Typical RO three filter setup:
1st filter, regular carbon block type, keep RO filter from being over worked by removing sediment, also chlorine/other chemicals

2ond filter, RO, remove dissolved solids

storage tank

3rd filter, fine carbon block type, after tank to remove any taste/odors from storage tank

 

[cernobila]

Just found this thread........We would also like to change from delivered water to some kind of filter system to get rid of the chlorine taste, but where we are, it is a sin and high cost to waste any water down the drain.......in fact we have what may be called "water police" mentality to use only the allowed water on our gardens per week. People are encouraged to dob in their neighbours if they use too much. The overall use of water here is a serious matter.

So, with the above in mind, what are some suggestions to get good clean chlorine free water for drinking and tea/coffee making......our tap water is relatively medium hard.

 

[raggie33]

i have a pur filter on mine but i doubt i used it to filter less then 1 gallon of water it hangs to low for my pitcher

 

[LuxLuthor]

Just found this thread........We would also like to change from delivered water to some kind of filter system to get rid of the chlorine taste, but where we are, it is a sin and high cost to waste any water down the drain.......in fact we have what may be called "water police" mentality to use only the allowed water on our gardens per week. People are encouraged to dob in their neighbours if they use too much. The overall use of water here is a serious matter.

So, with the above in mind, what are some suggestions to get good clean chlorine free water for drinking and tea/coffee making......our tap water is relatively medium hard.

Yeah, your situation is different from mine, as I never have water restrictions/shortages. My new RO wastes 3 gallons for every 1 gallon that gets through, but shuts off filtering to waste when the holding tank is full.

So if you are in a location where you are down to measuring gallons, this RO setup is not for you. In reality, one toilet flush at my house wastes more water than I get from the RO setup. This system which I linked above uses 3 charcoal and particle size filters then the RO membrane filter is 4th in line, and finally a smaller "finishing" charcoal filter in 5th place.

A number of other pitcher/attachments to faucet have been mentioned earlier in thread.

 

[orbital]

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