Better than Surefire?

[brightnorm]

This company was mentioned on Strategos as a Surefire competitor for Special Forces. My understanding is that users were disatisfied and are now using or may be using Surefires. Insight supposedly has something in the works that will "blow away" Surefire.

INSIGHT TECHNOLOGY LIGHT

I don't understand how Insight's claim of 90 lumens for one hour on 2 lithiums can be true. Is it a false claim, or have they in fact developed a more efficient lamp, or are there different ways to interpret "lumens" or "runtime"?

Brightnorm

 

[Catdaddy]

Do you have any information on the flashlight?

 

[Josh]

The beam sucked on the M3 model that was on a G19 I fondled, it looked like two beams overlaping

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I had a chance to try them out at the last gun show. It is nowhere near as bright as SF weaponslights. Especially the SF M-series weaponslights. They had ugly rings like a Maglight, and about as bright as a 3D-5D maglight.

In fact at the Anaheim, Ca gun show I whipped out my E2e I was carrying and showed the vendor the E2e was many times the intensity. They still claimed their product was better. Go figure.

The laser feature was cool though. But then again, there is the Grip Laser to use along with a SF weaponslight.

 

[tkl]

i actually prefer the insight over sf's handgun lights. i didn't notice any rings in the light or they didn't bother me cause it doesn't matter. it will illuminate the threat just fine for disposal. the insight tech is much more slimline, lighter and has a better switch. it is less $$'s too.

sf's handgun weapon lights used to be bolted onto the trigger guard and sucked, actually both methods of attatchment are still available. they also use to say the light needs to be bolted for reliability until insight came out with the M3. then sf changed their tune and came out with a quick release of their own that just attatched to the rails.

 

[Steve C]

Ditto tkl.

I have had a personal M-3 for several years, as well as one issued to me for my SWAT Glock 35. I'm out of that game now, but still have and regularly use that personally-owned M-3.

We have 70+ of these things, and the ONLY problem in two years of steady use was the retaining springs on the latch mechanism holding the light to the frame rails were failing under the .40 recoil. InSight provided stronger springs, and that problem went away.

The only SureFire handgun lights I have seen were rather bulky affairs that were permanently mounted. I don't recall them being any brighter than the M-3. I have no idea where these rings, blotches, etc., you guys are seeing come from. Every M-3 I've handled put out a decent, clear beam that was iminently useful. And I'm talking about actual entries on live targets, not a training or wet-dream scenario.

The lens is adjustable, a'la Maglite, so perhaps that was the problem you saw. The smart thing to do is find one's optimum focus , then tape the lens so it can't move.

The M-3 is small and light (and bright) enough to serve as an auxillary duty light. Most of our guys who work the road carry their M-3 in a pager pouch on the gun belt. Since we issue the batteries, they use the lights sometimes more during a night shift than the issue Stinger, just because the M-3 is there to hand.

I'm not dissing SF handgun lights. I haven't seen a recent-production example, so I have no clue how good (or not) they may be. We use the SF gun lights on all our shoulder weapons (CAR-15, MP-5, Remingtom 870), but the M-3 works best for us on the sidearm.

Steve

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I wasn't putting down the Insight. Maybe it was out of focus when I saw it at the gun show, but when I mentioned that it had rings and not bright the vendor did not mention anything about focus. I wouldn't want to kick down a door and find out my light was out of focus too.

The Insight was smaller than my SF millenium weaponslight. My SF is bulky but it's a trade off to get 225 lumens of light and compatiblily with my M3 for in field spare parts if needed.

It's hard to beleive that it (Insight) is 90+ lumens because when I tried it, my E2e (60lm) outshined it easily. They might have had weak batteries in there?

I didn't see any shock isolation system in the bezel as well. I did like the laser feature though. I am curious now. I will make it a point to check them out at the gun show coming up in a week.

 

[Steve C]

<<I would hate to kick in a door and find my light was out of focus.>>

Exactly; which is why we tape them.

I can't comment on the relative brightness of the two, except to say that the M-3 is more than adequate for a normal room size. Actually, the only time one of our guys makes entry with the pistol instead of a shoulder weapon is if he is a breacher or is carrying/using some other specialized gear.

Our M-3s are white-light only. We shun laser aimers for several reasons. We do use AimPoints on the carbines and squirt guns, but lasers have issues that make them unsuitable for us (and most other tactical units that run a lot of ops).

 

[WillnTex]

I've never had one move out of focus once it was set. They used to advertise the light as 80+ lumens until just recently. If you use the pressure switch you might look into the elastic bands sold by blackhawk. They are intended for something else but are the perfect size for a glock grip and they keep the pressure switch in place much better than the piece of velcro that is supplied can do alone and the band provides enough pressure that the light will activate with much less effort.

 

[Ratso]

These are the same weapon mounted lights Streamlight distributes. I have heard both good and bad about them (more good). I think the lumen rating of 80-90 seems pretty realistic, and the Surefire's 6 volt lights' ratigns are very conservative. I noticed that they are rated rather low for the high wattage they run at (more like 90-100).

The competition (Surefire vs. Insight) reminds me of people who compare Eagle and Blackhawk. Lots of people bash Blackhawk Tactical gear just because it is not as high quality as Eagle. Both companies are great, and soldiers use (and swear by) both, but Eagle just puts a little more attention to detail than Blackhawk.

 

[tkl]

surefire, no need! just go over to the firing line, CMMG has them for $99+s&h. best deal i've seen.

 

[Size15's]

ITI & Streamlight have a winning product with their M-3.

Many people use the M-3 rather then the SureFire P101. This is down to price, light-weight and therefore the M-3 attaches to some handguns without an adaptor which is important to people who have holsters that can't hold a handgun with SureFire's adaptor attached.

There are some handguns now that are built to high enough standards to accept a SureFire WeaponLight. It's all about flex in the gun or something - the rails on many handguns aren't rigid enough. I hear that many firearms are being designed now with standard Picatinny rails so that users can mount accessories such as WeaponLights on them.

In general I get the impression that SureFires are specialist illumination tools compared to Streamlight's mass-market alternative.

What is good is that having a weapon mounted light; the training and the ability to use it correctly does make a difference.

To be quite frank, the Joe Public who buys an M-3 over a P101 and spends the difference on more training is making a good use of his available resources.

Again, it is fine by me if Joe can swap his M-3 between this Glock and his Remington 870 shotgun because he can't afford two illumination tools, why should I shout at him to get a dedicated 618FA if it means he won't have access to a light on his handgun?

At the end of the day, I would rather Joe had a light on his weapon because I think its a good idea to know what you're shooting at.

Regarding the M-3's output - ones I have seen have not been as good as SureFire's P60 Lamps. As with the Scorpion lamps, bulb life is less than SureFires. Reliability is good but just as with any bulbs, it's difficult to get an accurate overview from just the internet.

What I do find hard to understand are those who get an M-3 for their shotgun, carbines or submachineguns etc. This is where SureFire stands clear above the rest. Dedicated and Modular WeaponLights that give you high power, great switching and massive interchangeability.

Is the M-3 better than SureFire?

For some handguns, for some users, for some applications, yes.

In general, the M-3 is not aimed at the same market that SureFires are.

At least that's my opinion. I hope it isn't too offensive.

Al

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by tkl:
surefire, no need! just go over to the firing line, CMMG has them for $99+s&h. best deal i've seen.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey cool, they have them there? I'll pick one up and see how they work next time I shoot/train. I havent' been to the Firing Line in a couple of years (I qualified there a couple times), that's off the 60 fwy right? I'll have to look it up again.

 

[brightnorm]

Originally posted by Surefire M6:
....It's hard to beleive that it (Insight) is 90+ lumens because when I tried it, my E2e (60lm) outshined it easily. They might have had weak batteries in there?....

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Taking a closer look at the M3 page; that 90 lumens is listed under "Peak Power". It may in fact hit 90L for the first minute or two then spin down. I've noticed that the TACM III seems to start stronger than the SF P60 (aside from the fact that it's a smaller diameter beam) buts eats batteries faster.

It is relatively easy to obtain impressive specs
for lights that claim greater brightness than their same energy source peers, but given present day limits of lamp efficiency and battery capacity, those specs will likely be obtained by "robbing Peter to pay Paul".

Brightnorm

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

"...the M-3 is not aimed at the same market that SureFires are."

Yes, they are. The M3 is a cost effective solution. They work. That is all the majority of users of this product require of it. After the usage, 19 out of 20 operators just simply return it to the toolbox until it is time to use it again. Most of these folks dread the thought of having to use it because it places themselves, by default, in harms way.

The topic Better than Surefire needs some qualification. Better at what? ...illuminating the target? ...providing a smoother beam? ...helping keep the good guys safe? ...bringing the bad guys to justice? ...attaching to a service sized duty handgun? ...looking good in while posing with your fav wondernine?

...winning a large quantity bid?

The 20th operator is likely someone that appreciates Surefire products more for what they are instead of the utility that they provide.

Damn, I forgot my point...

I'm too tired...

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yikes I just double checked and the Gun Show is a month away, not a week. I'll have to wait until then. Maybe I'll stop by my local uniform shop, they might stock them there.

Gun Show:
Costa Mesa, CA
November 30th - December 1st

 

[snake]

6V 1A 6W,producing 90 lum is not impossible...as the per W efficency only 1 to 15, there are bulbs with efficency over 20.

problem is.. it trade off bulb life

 

[SCampbell]

<<...most of these folks dread having to use it...because it places them in harm's way.>>

When I first read that, I took great offense. I had the fingers all limbered up, ready to blast. Then I cooled down, and realized (I hope) that you are talking about ordinary cops, not SWAT guys.

If you ARE talking about SWAT guys, then you couldn't be more wrong. They do what they do because they want to. You will find no conscripts rigged out in a ninja suit.

Many regular cops, OTOH, fit your description. A lot of them have no equipment other than what was issued to them. The thought of spending their own money on work-related gear is an alien concept.

I disagree, however, with the idea that the M-3 was designed to a price point and to be "good enough". It is a quality, rugged device. We do not baby our equipment; it gets used, and used hard. We chose it because, at the time, it was what we considerd the best available for the task. Money was not an issue. We were aware of the SF offerings. As I stated, we use their long gun lights because they are the best; period.

Sorry for the rant; I'm feeling philosophical this morning...

Steve

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Glad you got it, Steve.

 

[tkl]

Originally posted by Surefire M6:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tkl:
surefire, no need! just go over to the firing line, CMMG has them for $99+s&h. best deal i've seen.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey cool, they have them there? I'll pick one up and see how they work next time I shoot/train. I havent' been to the Firing Line in a couple of years (I qualified there a couple times), that's off the 60 fwy right? I'll have to look it up again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no, www.thefiringline.com in the gear for sale section.