Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA(found problem, cells)

[Omega Man]

I never had a problem in the past, but recently I've been having trouble getting 2x17670 cells to power both a Surefire P90 and a Lumens Factory HO-9. No amount of double or bazillion clicking will get them to stay on.
I'm using them in a C3 with A19. Like I said, they worked in the past, but not anymore. I've tried them when the cells were down at 3.7v each, and just now fresh from an overnight charge.

Any thoughts on this? Did I abuse them with these high amp LAs? Should I retire these cells for another brand that can handle the pull? Any help is greatly appreciated, I'm now left without a bedside/break-in light, which I grabbed when there was banging on my door Monday night. Turned out to be 2 officers looking for the upstairs neighbor who's been long gone, but when the dog starts barking late at night at the door, I don't know or care who it is, I want that light in my hand!

-EDIT- It turned out being the 2 cells, my spare cells run it just fine now.

 

[cernobila]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

WOW, you have a very basic set-up here, I mean, something that is very common with CPF'ers. The P90, HO-9 and EO-9 have no problem working with AW 2x 17670 cells. The AW cells are as good as you are likely to get and in fact are known to fire up certain bulbs that other brand cells wont......Maybe your cells are just worn out or perhaps the charger and/or the charging technique may be the problem......you need to give us more information.....

 

[SilverFox]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

Hello Omega Man,

About how may charge cycles do you think you have on your cells?

What charger are you using?

Initially, it sounds like your cells are worn out.

Tom

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

I'm using the black DSD charger AW offered (offers?) with his cells.
I found my PP receipt, I bought them with the charger 4-16-06. I've only used them with a P91 and then the HO-9. I'd say they've been charged from 4-6 times. I don't use that light much, and when I do it's not often.
The cells do work with the VB-16 multimode light from Wit's End, so I atleast know they work, technically.

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

So, any other thoughts besides the cells could be crapping out? They have not been used much at all, and only have been charged with the supplied charger. Is it worth getting a more current charger, new cells, or both? Would 18650s fit in the C3 body? Something tell me know...

 

[Luminous]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

I a similar problem with "C" size AW cells. They used to power up a WA1185 but do not any more (well the light would come on but shut off after about 1-2 minutes), I never got a proper anwser to the problem. I disposed of the cells as I did not know if they were any longer safe.
I wonder if they are problems with AW cells?
Has anybody else had problems with AW cellls?

 

[VegasF6]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

Omega Man, I didn't actually see in your post that the C3 works with any other batteries.... You are sure it isn't the lamp or switch? Had to ask the obvious, sorry.

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

Hey Vegas, you're right, I should have been more specific with my tests.
I also tested a P90 and P91, with the C3's original twist switch, and an aftermarket clicky. None of the bulbs would light more than 2 seconds with either tailcap, using the 2 AW 17670s.
But all bulbs work with the A19 taken off, and running 3 CR123 primaries. So it HAS to be the cells!

 

[PhantomPhoton]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

I've had an AW C Cell and an AW RCR123 cell crap out like this. Both were being used in series and always charged at the same time after use. In both cases one cell lost the ability to hold a current at any usable level.

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

Crap... I can't use 18650s in the C3, so it's either buy more 17670s to run the HOLAs, or buy a uber bright LED dropin. But nothing now adays in coming close to that 250-300lm mark, right? Are Malkovs doing that yet?

 

[BSBG]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

But all bulbs work with the A19 taken off, and running 3 CR123 primaries. So it HAS to be the cells!

You still have the variable of the A19 in there as well.

Have you checked the continuity though the body with the A19 in place? I have a 'Devastator' that has to be screwed on in an exact position or it will not function. It is about an 1/8th turn back from full tight, go figure.

Try turning the light on and fiddling with the tightness of the A19 (at both ends).

.

 

[VegasF6]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

You still have the variable of the A19 in there as well.

Have you checked the continuity though the body with the A19 in place? I have a 'Devastator' that has to be screwed on in an exact position or it will not function. It is about an 1/8th turn back from full tight, go figure.

Try turning the light on and fiddling with the tightness of the A19 (at both ends).

.

None of the bulbs would light more than 2 seconds with either tailcap, using the 2 AW 17670s.

I would think at this point it is the cells. But, even though limited use, they lasted for 2.5 years, that's pretty good. We don't know how the DSD charger treated those cells for one thing, and I am assuming they were always stored at full voltage. Someone like Eric would be better suited to answer, but aren't li-ons ideally stored at 40% percent capacity? If stored fully charged they break down internally. All the details are in other posts, I don't have them memorized or anything, but I guess that wasn't too bad a run. It is probably time for some more AW's, Pila's, or WE's cells, and perhaps a different charger as well. Those older cells could probably be relagated to another duty, like perhaps an L-mini. Or a G2? Since they are getting questionable I would suggest a single cell light for them.

+ it is an exciting time to explore other options right now with the introduction of the IMR 16340 cells.

*edit* Here is a link I liberated from Silverfox talking about storing of lithium ion cells. I guess we will find out the condition of your cells if you use them in something else, or perhaps send them off to someone with the ability to test them. Also, isn't the ideal draw from li-on's 1C or less?

 

[Metatron]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

havnt read all the posts, but if AW's protection has kicked in then the only way to reconnect is to recharge for a few secs i think...

 

[PhantomPhoton]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

Crap... I can't use 18650s in the C3

I feel your pain too

so it's either buy more 17670s to run the HOLAs, or buy a uber bright LED dropin.

Holas are nice :devil:

But nothing now adays in coming close to that 250-300lm mark, right? Are Malkoffs doing that yet?

Nope Malkoffs are around 220 lumens. Very nice, I love my M60 and I'm a big LED guy but there's something about a good incan that makes me .
New Malkoff W's will have a bit less output and warmer tint but still won't tough the HOLAs in color rendition and total output, just smashed in runtime.

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

I don't think it's the A19 at all, it seriously has to be an issue with the cells not being able to take the load. And I have 2 sets...wait, I ahven't tried my spare set yet, D'OH!! I'll get back to this thread when I test if they work or not.

I was going to say, I have two sets of 17670s just for this setup, the only other light I have (at the moment) that could use them is a V-16 from Wit's End. But that's a custom numbered CPF model, and it's a shelf queen with a 3w LED, it doesn't see any use.

EDIT- Well well well.... what do ya know, the two other cells are working just fine, the setup now works perfectly with either tailcap, using the LF 9v bulb. Fires right up, no problem, stays lit. I guess the two bad cells, they are probably the ones I bought used a year ago. Or maybe one of them is having trouble, and not the other? Once I get my new DX light(WF-502b 5 mode) I'll try them in there and do some runtime tests, to see what the story is.
Of coarse, I appreciate everyones ideas on this, even BSBG suggesting I check coninuity through the A19. I would have never considered that on my own. Back to feeling secure at night! :twothumbs

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

Bump with the solution, it was the cells I was using, I put my spare set in last night, and everything is peaches and cream now. See above edit.

 

[mdocod]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

My experience has been that using the P91 on the 17670s does seem to increase the rate of PCB failures. I've had 2 cells that drove that lamp suffer from PCB failures over the years, when used with alternative, lower power consuming lamps, I haven't had any problems in my AW cells. I think moving up to the larger 18650 size cells for loads like the P91 would probably help the situation, as the 18650 size cell will "fire up" the load of the P91 faster (higher peak current flow).

I also *think* that AWs latest revision of the 17670 is a better design and better PCB than the ones he was selling ~2 years ago. I have some of both (older black label, and newer black label), The new ones maybe seem to be better (Nothing to back up this claim to be honest, I seem to recall there being an "update" to the PCB used in these not too long ago though). The difference can be identified by looking at the top of the cell. The top on the older black labels had a white ring around the button top, the newer ones have a black ring instead.

Ideally speaking, if you want to continue to run high power incan lamps in that size flashlight, consider getting a 2x18650 body, and running a pair of AWs up and coming IMR18650 cells. Don't use with the P91 as they'll probably flash the it, but LumensFactory is coming out with a high output D26 that will work fine on the IMR18650 cells. I think for these setups, LiMn is just more well suited and more reliable.

Eric

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Black and silver AW 17670s won't light up HOLA anymore

Well my choices are: Try to find a 2x18650 body with a clip and get rid of my C3 body, or get some new 17670s from AW..
Both involve spending money, something I'm not looking forward to. But from what you've said, and what I've just read in his battery thread, I would consider giving his new 17670s a try, since they are able to handle greater amp pulls. Besides, that light is rarely used. It stays by the bed or goes camping, and even when camping it's only been used to show off, or for when we seriously hear things creeping around. I appreciate the post, mdocod!
BTW- The DX sku.14024 tailcap really works well, I've very happy with it, and it's so darn cheap.