Botach problems censored on surefire's page

hmmwv

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 27, 2000
Messages
155
Location
Santa Clara, CA USA
Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

Well - looks like surefire got some complaints from at least one of their vendors - they now have a "DONT POST DEALER NAMES OR WE'LL CENSOR IT AND DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT" message when you log in.

Since I'd best not post in the surefire discussion group for fear of retaliation, I'll open the topic here - does the manufacturer have any duty or responsibility to protect a retailer who fails to perform and in fact violates the law in terms of their merchant agreement with regard to charging people's credit cards way before shipping product?

I consider this action (on behalf of surefire / laser products) totally irresponsible. If they have a dealer who is not performing, then censorship of user complaints is not the way to solve the problem. Confront the damn dealer and tell them to shape up or ship another product. It seems surefire hasn't got the balls to make their retail outlets take care of the customer.

I wonder if this thread had anything to do with it: I'm copying it here before surefire decides to delete it.

Funny - I got my streamlight batonlight yesterday - and my SL-35x - both of which have restored my faith in streamlight - then the next day surefire pulls this BS - which lowers my opinion of them substantially.

(long thread follows - coppied from surefires forum)

JonSidneyJr
Member
Posts: 18
From:Indiana
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 01-11-2001 08:33 PM
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I sometime ago ordered a 12ZM to have a bright light for around the house or in the car from Botach sometime ago. The person on the phone told me that it was out of stock and that it had been dropshipped by the manufacturer (maybe true but to not belive them). I asked when that had happened and he said that he would have to look it up. The gentleman said that he would call me back in fifteen minutes. About ten days passed and no call. I contacted Botach again, the person with whom I was speaking asked who I had talked to before (I did not know but it sounded like the same person).
I was told again to wait 15 minutes for a call back. That was two days ago, these 15 minute intervals seem long. Botach offers good prices but its not so good when you recieve nothing for your money. The orders that I have placed with LDS have been quick. Beware of who you order from.
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hmmwv
Member
Posts: 18
From:Santa Clara, CA USA
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 01-11-2001 08:54 PM
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Botach has a real problem with inventory / shipping / billing / customer service / telephone skills, etc. Even www.botach.com refuses connections. My first order to them (which was several hundred dollars worth of equipment) was a disaster - like yours - it was several 15min/ 10 days calls.
My assesment of the botach situation is that they have (had) a comprehensive website with EVERY product made by every manufacturer, with really low prices, but they don't stock the majority of what they advertise. They couldn't ship a single item on my order - after several "15 minute" callbacks that took over a week - they revealed that all the items which were "in stock" were acutally ordered *after* I made my order, and wouldn't be shipped until they received the shipment from the manufacturer, over a week later. When I placed the order, they said everything was in stock and would ship the same day. I would have been much better off ordering from a stocking retailer than botach.

The number of people who have posted negative experiences with botach is staggering. Some have had their credit cards charged even though there was no product to ship. One post (I believe it was on candlepowerforums) describes botach's "store" as an old pawn shop that is never open (has no "walk in" service) - which really p***sed me off since one of their excuses as to why they couldn't talk to me was that they were with a customer in the store....


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GhostGroup
Member
Posts: 138
From:brooklyn, ny USA
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 01-11-2001 11:21 PM
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Got my share of 15 min empty promises as well. Although 70% of 95% of the things I have of Surefire were ordered from botachtactical.com. I'd have to admit, thier service was pretty good in the beginning. But recently, I have been having problems as well. I had a bout (4) 15/min promises with no call back. They also charged my credit card for 2 8nx's which I didn't recieve until 3 weeks later. I order 2 day delivery too. Shouldn't they at least waive the shipping charges? Not only was I charged, but they never sent me an e mail confirmation nor a call. Well, a call from them may be too much to ask for, but if you want to be certain, call them and ask if they have them instock. I don't trust ordering on-line anymore with them. At least if you order over the phone, you can get is name and etc. for ref. But thier prices are good. Esp. when things are on sale.
GG

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dano
Member
Posts: 10
From:S.F., Cali.
Registered: Aug 99
posted 01-12-2001 12:16 AM
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From what I hear, Botach is actually a pawn shop, in a bad part of L.A....BUT THAT MAY BE JUST A RUMOR...Anyways, there's been too many negatives about the place...
For a shameless plug, I've had plenty of dealings with Lagger-Pro (www.lagger-pro.com). VERY professional, and they offer free ground UPS shipping in the U.S.

--dan

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hmmwv
Member
Posts: 18
From:Santa Clara, CA USA
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 01-12-2001 01:44 AM
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If they *are* a pawn shop, it would explain their poor attitude with customers - but at some point surefire has got to say to their resellers, "HEY! you are selling a QUALITY product - you can't treat customers like dirt and continue to get our deep discount" (obviously surefire is selling to www.botach.com directly otherwise they couldn't advertise such low prices)....,
or else maybe surefire had lots of extra production runs and pawned them all... Nah...

Unfortunately, the botach problem seems to have been going on for quite some time - reviewing the ancient posts from cdpf, there are botach complaints back many months.

Another plug - A while back I put in a large order for surefire/lasergrips to leech enterprises and found them to have everything in stock (even the oddball stuff!) - charge actual shipping - and ship the same day. Problem is - leech doesn't have a website.

So you can have www.botach.com that promises the world and delivers when they get around to it - or leech who has no website, but stocks inventory and ships right away...


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redbird
Junior Member
Posts: 5
From:SW Lower Michigan
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 01-12-2001 03:58 AM
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I have read the same negative posts recently. However, my experience is very different. I ordered a G2 and got a order confirmation e-mail in one day saying the order was on it's way. A follow up on the UPS tracking showed it to be delivered on the day promised.
I also ordered a E1 about a week later. It too came through with no problem.

Finally, I ordered another G2 as a gift and it was delivered in about two weeks.

They might have ups and downs but my experience is good.

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Gunfighter
Member
Posts: 12
From:VT
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 01-12-2001 04:43 AM
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They SUCK period.
I don't even want to start the ranting...

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Windler
Member
Posts: 259
From:Welwyn Garden City, Herts, England
Registered: Jul 99
posted 01-12-2001 10:03 AM
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My 1st order ages ago was perfect.
I've had hell trying to order ever since, and may not bother trying again.

Alastair

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tvhill13
Junior Member
Posts: 8
From:Mountain Home, ID, USA
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 01-12-2001 02:06 PM
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I have also had problems in the past with Botach. I think the worst is their customer service. I recently placed an order and had no problems. Surprise. I ahd decided not to order through them, and didn't for over a year. The only reason I went back because they offered an item at nearly 50% the price anywhere else. I would buy from them exclusively, due to prices, except for their horrible hit and miss service. They are definately losing alot of my business.
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Erick
Member
Posts: 13
From:Santa Rosa
Registered: Jun 99
posted 01-14-2001 01:58 AM
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FWIW, I've dealt with Botach once but never will again.
IMHO the best folks to deal with for SF stuff is www.lagger-pro.com

I will deal with Wayne without hesitation, he's made a boat load of $$$ off me.

Erick

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Windler
Member
Posts: 259
From:Welwyn Garden City, Herts, England
Registered: Jul 99
posted 01-14-2001 05:03 AM
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How about Tanners?
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Brock
Member
Posts: 27
From:Green Bay, WI. 54311
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 01-14-2001 08:46 AM
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I have used Tanners a couple of times, they have always been quick to respond and not to expensive. And the best part I haven't had any problems with them.
Brock

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Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

I think you got the wrong reason for the new policy.

I posted a note about Botach haveing E1s on sale for $35.00 and I believe it was what caused the problems.

I just thought my posting the pricing was along the lines of the disucssions about battery prices. Boy, was I wrong!!!
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

Well, to be fair to Surefire the dealer BOTACH did get a real bad press and probably threw a fit at Surefire. I'm sure given the public slating they received Botach will rapidly be dropped behind the scenes.

BTW BOTACH have billed me for stuff they have no intention of supplying. The entire correspondence has been passed to Mastercard for their attention - nuff said
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

This sounds like the whole benchmade, minimum pricing, no bad press stuff on benchamde forums.

Wait 'til you guys find out m6's really cost $75.
shocked.gif


Teasing ya,
DaveH
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

Crunchybits -

PLEASE PLEASE tell surfire about your experience - I sent them a flame mail last night around 3AM - the addresses to cover are

to: [email protected] (yea - 2 m's)
cc: [email protected] [email protected]
cc: yourself.

SUREFIRE NEEDS TO KNOW how bad botach is - in the US is is against the law to charge a credit card prior to shipping the product (a store can charge you the day they ship, but not 2 weeks ahead) - this has been an ongoing problem with botach, which surefire seems to be sticking their head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist. (the ostritch alrogrythm)
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

SF posted their reasons for the rule. Bottom line. Their website. Their forum. Their rules.

If you notice at the bottom of every page here there's copyright notice (© CandlePowerForums, 2000 - 2001). Sure Fire doesn't have theirs in place. But I'm still leary of posts copied and posted here from Sure Fire or any other forum. I know you want preserve the discussion that went on there. But I don't want to get sued.



------------------
"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
-Nordic proverb
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

SureFire now has added a separate forum to their BB called "Dealerships" (on the bottom) where all dealer discussions can take place. The only thing that they don't want to go on is specific dealers promoting themselves on the forum - which is understandable.

Ken J. Good who runs the forum has posted that sale prices on SureFires and good/bad places to purchase are OK to post in this new forum.

If you haven't already, check out at: http://www.surefire.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Dealerships&number=8&DaysPrune=1000&LastLogin=

Hope this helps,

Bucky
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

a) Nobody is going to get sued.

b) When censorship starts here, I'm gone.

c) I am not a surefire fan.

d) I am not a Botach fan.

e) If they are charging you for merchandise and not delivering, I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THAT TYPE OF BS.

This is critical information that can save me alot of grief. I want to hear it.

My "sympathies" to the original poster of this thread.

The "surefire board" along with "TFL" and "Glocktalk" is strictly for the politically correct. You go with the flow or you get the nazi boot.

The surefire board is strictly there for "advertising purposes" of their own product. They could care less about any real problems associated with their products.

If you hang at that board, it's just a "brownie session" of lithium lovers.

------------------
Seen any Martians?
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

Just kidding?

hehehehe
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

NIMH raises some good points - my opinion of surefire fell a notch thanks to ken's censorship plan. I emailed just about everyone in the company, and didn't hold back my feelings about it. I had planned on being one of the first to buy a 10x when they came out - now I'm not so sure. When ruger bowed down to HGI, I walked away from their products never to return. And I made sure I spread the word at every opportunity I found. Manufacturers need to maintain good public relations if they want to stay in business.

Like NIMH said - if a retailer out there has gone sour - we all have the right to know about it. I see no reason to protect a dealer that can't obey the laws of the merchant agreement and fraud statutes. If surefire has one bad retailer, and drops them, another will come along to fill their shoes. If they protect that retailer, and allow them to give surefire a bad name, then they will loose customers en masse.

Surefire could have said, "Hey - if there is a dealer that is not performing, let us know about it and we'll deal with the problem and let you know what the resolution is" - that would be responsible. Telling people not to talk about it on the board was irresponsible, which is why I complained so bitterly.

I also took them up on their offer to deal with issues and explained the problem I had (still have) with botach - 24 hours later - still no response to that issue from surefire. Instead of *DOING* something to correct the problem, they created another board to discuss dealers. I'm still an unhappy botach customer, and rapidly loosing faith in surefire.

As for sueing - go ahead - I have a lawyer on retainer that makes OJ's dream team look like larry, curly, and moe.
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

SureFire has a place for discussing the good and bad of dealers on their board now.

<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Unicorn on 01-29-2001 at 10:46 AM</font>
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

Two days ago I received two Hard-Anodized E2's from Botach. They do have them at 56.25 plus $6 for the HA version. Yes, their service borders on the criminal...but the more orders you do, the better their service gets. Don't ask me why, it doesn't make sense to me either. I was one of the first to complain bloody murder on Bladeforums about them so you know that I'm not coming from the "never-been-screwed-before" camp.
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

How many times do I have to read this same message, paranoid?
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

I thought it was just a little over the top myself. Maybe it would have been better to just start a new thread rather than digging up all these old ones?

I'm sure we're all happy for you and your increasing Botach success. It's good to know if they're gradually getting their act together. I think it'll take a while to restore any confidence or trust though - no matter how good the prices.

Al
 
Re: Botach problems censored on surefire\'s page

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by craigz:
How many times do I have to read this same message, paranoid?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Craigz,

To answer, only once for every thread Botach is mentioned in. Look, I'm not getting paid by Botach AKA Botched Tactical and I wholeheartedly agree that no one has to buy from them. I think I am clear on that. People will make their own decisions. I value your opinion and your input on this board. If there is something you wish to discuss with me, feel free to take it to private email.
 
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