C-9000 Not Fully Charging Cells - Why Is This?

Ziemas

Enlightened
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
249
I've noticed something odd with my Maha C-9000. When I perform a break-in (.1c for 16 hours, .2c discharge, .1c for another 16 hours) I get fully charged cells. If I do an additional discharge after the break-in cycle I get a capacity reading very close to the one given in break-in mode. Okay.

If I charge cells at between .5c and 1c, and leave them on the charger for several hours to trickle after the charger says DONE and then discharge them I get a capacity about 10% less then the one I got in break-in mode. This happens with all cells, regardless of brand, capacity, or type.

Why is this happening and how can I fully charge my cells?

Thanks for the help. Z.
 
Interesting question, Ziemas.


I'll be watching for the responses to this. :popcorn:




Oh, and Welcome to CandlePowerForums !

:welcome:

_
 
Hi Ziemas,

Is this the updated charger, or the original version?

I think the updated one is a little more conservative on termination.

Cheers
 
I only use mine for break-in and discharge cycles now, never for charging anymore. I am really sick of it. In one instance I pulled out a pair of Eneloop AAs that have been charged and top-offed in the C9000 and let them charge in an RC charger that I have, at 1C. It took almost 10 minutes to fully charge them! I posted about this issue a while back but it seems that no one wants to openly admit that the C9000 is actually undercharging cells. I was looking for C9000s before the update but the local dealers here do not have any stock. The interesting thing is people who own the pre-updated C9000s are still keeping them. Makes you wonder isn't it?

By the way my C9000 firmware is OGOIA too.
 
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This is exactly what I find. For instance, with Eneloops on break-in mode, I can get a measured capacity somewhere between 1950 and 2000 mAh. However, if I put them on a normal 1 amp charge and leave them on the charger for two hours after "Done" for top off, the measured capacity comes in around 1850 mAh.

It's a vaguely curious thing, and I don't worry about it too much.

(I think it's a characteristic of how NiMH chemistry works. In the Eneloop example the charge acceptance is quite low beyond the 1850 mAh point, and it takes a long slow overcharge to squeeze that last 100 mAh in there. It's also not likely to remain very long, and will probably bleed off by self-discharge after a few days.)

Note: Undercharging good. Overcharging bad.
 
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There has been another discussion about this recently. Page down to older posts and you should be able to find it. The title might be about Eneloops, not sure.

The break-in mode puts the maximum amount of energy into cells simply because it supplies excess energy (roughly 60% extra). Even accounting for charge efficiency (losses due to heat and such) it still puts in more than available cell capacity. Thus it is virtually guaranteed to alwys fill cells to capacity.

The other discussion has a great chart showing charge process, voltage and temperature. It shows temperature rise accelerating at the end. Depending on the charge rate the temperature rise could cause some damage. So the current algorithm tries to compromise by stopping programmed charge rate BEFORE cells if fully charged and temperature rises much, but still keeps going with a lower rate (about 100 mA I think) for another 2 hours trying to get close to a complete charge but at a lower rate to avoid temperature rise and concordant damage.

Like I said the other discussion explains very well. The bottom line is this:
C9000 charges to *NEAR" full capacity sacrificing the last 5% or so in order to treat cells well and ensure longer lifespan.
 
There has been another discussion about this recently. Page down to older posts and you should be able to find it. The title might be about Eneloops, not sure.

The break-in mode puts the maximum amount of energy into cells simply because it supplies excess energy (roughly 60% extra). Even accounting for charge efficiency (losses due to heat and such) it still puts in more than available cell capacity. Thus it is virtually guaranteed to alwys fill cells to capacity.

The other discussion has a great chart showing charge process, voltage and temperature. It shows temperature rise accelerating at the end. Depending on the charge rate the temperature rise could cause some damage. So the current algorithm tries to compromise by stopping programmed charge rate BEFORE cells if fully charged and temperature rises much, but still keeps going with a lower rate (about 100 mA I think) for another 2 hours trying to get close to a complete charge but at a lower rate to avoid temperature rise and concordant damage.

Like I said the other discussion explains very well. The bottom line is this:
C9000 charges to *NEAR" full capacity sacrificing the last 5% or so in order to treat cells well and ensure longer lifespan.
Strange thing is that I'm getting much less than a 5% deduction. Cells that tested at 2560 during break-in are only testing at around 2250 after a regular charge and two hour wait.
 
So they tested "2560" hot off the charge cycle OR after a certain rest period?
I forget the exact numbers. Cells loose something like 5%-10% in the 1st 24 hours after a charge cycle. So if you discharge right after a charge cycle you'll get 10% higher value then if cells were to sit idle for 1-2 days.

So try this. Charge using break-in, remove from charger and let it be idle for 2 days, then use discharge to test capacity. See what you get.

SilverFox can explain this better.

If you use break-in *AND* use a cell right after the charger is done then you'll get the absolute maximum capacity from a cell. That is not a fair comparison to other modes and/or using a cell that has been sitting idle for some time.

In fact that is why many of us use Eneloops these days.
 
Hello bob_ninja.

Cells tested during the break in mode on C-9000 have an hour rest period.

Silverfox usually let them rest 30 min so the cells would cool down a bit and also get rid of the "hot of the charge" phrase.

Anders
 
So they tested "2560" hot off the charge cycle OR after a certain rest period?
I forget the exact numbers. Cells loose something like 5%-10% in the 1st 24 hours after a charge cycle. So if you discharge right after a charge cycle you'll get 10% higher value then if cells were to sit idle for 1-2 days.

So try this. Charge using break-in, remove from charger and let it be idle for 2 days, then use discharge to test capacity. See what you get.

SilverFox can explain this better.

If you use break-in *AND* use a cell right after the charger is done then you'll get the absolute maximum capacity from a cell. That is not a fair comparison to other modes and/or using a cell that has been sitting idle for some time.

In fact that is why many of us use Eneloops these days.

All cells are tested the same day they are charged, usually after an hour or two rest.
 
Hello Ziemas,

By now you should have gained an appreciation of why battery manufacturers utilize the "standard charge" and "standard discharge" to determine the capacity of their batteries. It gives the highest capacities.

Battery capacity is influenced by a number of things, including charge rate, discharge rate, and the amount of time resting between charging and discharging. Consumer cells are rated by the manufacturer according to the results obtained from the standard charge and standard discharge. This is charging at 0.1C for 16 hours, resting for 1 - 4 hours, and then discharging at a 0.2C rate. All of this is done at standard laboratory temperatures and humidity. In some special applications (power tool and RC use), a manufacturer may give the performance based on a 1C charge and a 1C discharge, but that is more the exception than the rule.

To understand why slower charging rates give you more capacity (in general), you will have to do some studying on the electroplating process. Look up the effect of current on plating and you should begin to understand what is going on inside your battery.

Understand, that the standards for testing and determining capacity apply to the battery manufacturers. They do not apply to companies that simply re-label batteries with their own brand name. The companies that re-label are free to put whatever capacity they think will sell on their label. We hope that they would not "hedge" the actual numbers too much, but sometimes they do. That is where independent battery testing comes in...

When using the C9000, your capacities from the Break-In cycle should come very close to matching the labeled capacity on the cell, if the labeled capacity is from the manufacturer and not the marketing department. Charging, and/or discharging at higher rates will result in lower capacities.

However, keep in mind that charging at higher rates has some advantages. You may loose a little capacity, but you will hold voltage a little higher and get better performance from your cells if you charge at higher rates. You will also generate a strong end of charge termination signal that will protect the cell against overcharge damage. Finally, charging at higher rates takes less time, and having a strong end of charge signal means that it is easy to charge partially discharged cells. You end up getting more cycle life because you don't have to completely discharge prior to every charge.

You have discovered that, for your cells, charging and discharging at higher rates yields around 10% less capacity. My cells come in with roughly a 3 – 6% loss. Some cells are different than others.

There are a lot of variables involved in charging. Various chargers may perform differently than the C9000. BrianChan commented that his RC charger charges to a higher state of charge. The main difference is that the RC chargers have a much higher, or no, peak voltage termination. My Schulze can charge to over 2 volts per cell under certain conditions. The original C9000 charged to nearly the same capacities as my Schulze, but people used the C9000 as a consumer charger, rather than a RC charger, and ran into a multitude of missed terminations. The improved C9000 throttled back on "charge completeness" in favor of eliminating all missed terminations.

Ok, I believe that should take care of your first question… for the second one "how can I get a complete charge?" this depends on how you define "complete."

The easiest way is to put the cells in the C9000, dial in a charge rate in the 0.5 – 1.0C range and remove the cells 2 hours after Done appears.

However, if your definition of "complete" is getting the maximum capacity under a 5 hour discharge, then you will have to run a discharge cycle to first empty your cells, then run a Break-In cycle to charge them. Set yourself a timer for 16 hours, and remove the cells prior to the discharge portion of the Break-In cycle begins.

Tom
 
Tom,

Thank you for the excellent and concise answers to my questions. It is very much appreciated! :twothumbs
 
Tom

I really enjoy these extended answers of yours and learn so much.

The only problem is that I can't get access to them and all your charts easily in one place! and the threads get lost etc. This is of course no more than bemoaning the, at once, convenience and difficulty of the internet as a format.

You wouldn't care to collect these in one place would you? Like writing a book?

Cheers

Chris

PS - you might have guessed that I am a Professor!
 
Hello Chris,

:)

Someday I hope to have something "profound," and "meaningful" to say. Perhaps then I will consider writing a book...

How do you like:

"The Care and Feeding of Rechargeable Batteries?" or

"Hundreds of the most Frequently Asked Questions about Batteries?" or

"The Performance Handbook of Batteries and Chargers?"

Oh well... :)

Most of what I post can be found in other areas, I just have a way of putting the bits and pieces together in a way that seems to make sense.

Tom
 
Hi Tom

Don't be modest! Useful is often more profound than profound is useful!

I like the third title anyway and I'd have a chapter on battery testers too.

Cheers

Chris
 
No, here's your title.


It's perfect ! :thumbsup:



"Tortured to near death, then murdered... "


Catchy, indeed. :)


In fact, Oprah is posting it on her Book List right now !


Better start calling Publishers ASAP.



BTW . . . .

Rumor has it that Johnny Depp is gonna' star in the Movie version. :whistle:

_
 
Switch to LaCrosse BC-900

Switch to the LaCrosse BC-900. It charges my Eneloop AA's and AAA's PERFECTLY. I've been using it for 6 months and have no complaints at all.
 
Silverfox, I suggest
"The Battery Assassin -- 100 Ways to Kill Your Battery"
and make it downloadable for a small fee. I'd buy it!
 
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