CAN A HOBBY CHARGER DO A C9000 BREAK-IN?

tatasal

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I have some concerns:

- The C9000's BREAK-IN procedure applies a charge on an AA/AAA niMh cell at a rate of .1C (16-hrs), discharge at .2C, then another (16-hr) .1C charge. If I program my hobby charger at these same rates, can
my cells have the same effect of the C9000?

- If so, can I BREAK-IN my Imedion 9500mAh LSD D-cells through the hobby charger and at what rates?

- On the C9000's operator's manual, general battery education section, it says "CHARGING AT A RATE BELOW .33C AND ABOVE 1.0C IS NOT RECOMMENDED", DISCHARGING RATE NOT TO EXCEED 1.0C

- Why the charging/discharging rate discrepancies? Does it mean the C9000's BREAK-IN mode does it in another way (not the usual charging/discharging process) of which a hobby charger cannot do?

Thanks
 
Hobby charger can do it. In fact it will be better because hobby chargers use linear current regulation instead of pulsing current Maha does.

Low currents are not recommended for standard cycle use because it won't terminate properly od delta V. But in break-in you need only time termination.
 
Hobby charger can do it. In fact it will be better because hobby chargers use linear current regulation instead of pulsing current Maha does.

Low currents are not recommended for standard cycle use because it won't terminate properly od delta V. But in break-in you need only time termination.

Have you tried this yourself? At what charging/discharging rates for the 9500mAh D-cells?

Will you do the break-in in a hobby charger individually or can it be done in SERIES?
 
Hello Tatasal,

Let's start with the basics...

The Break In or Forming charge uses a charge current of 0.1C for a period of 16 hours. Capacity is determined by a 0.2C discharge, which should take close to 5 hours.

With a 9500 mAh cell, 0.1C is 950 mA.

Hobby chargers may have some issues doing a forming charge. Some have time limits, and others do not provide a way to by pass the charge termination. If you can find ways to work around these issues, your hobby charger will work fine.

Battery packs are made up of individual cells. With NiMh cells, they are usually connected in series. The usuall method of balancing the cells is to do a normal charge, then follow that with a 0.1C charge to bring the individual cells into balance.

You can also use this with your hobby charger to simulate a forming charge. This method is not quite as good as a full 0.1C 16 hour charge, but it comes close. With ample use the cell will end up with its maximum capacity over the next few charge/discharge cycles.

Tom
 
Have you tried this yourself?
No I haven't, mainly because it would take lot of time if breaking in individually - because if you want to know exact capacity of each cell you can't just break it in all in series. And my hobby charger is busy with another cells - for single cell ni-mh/cd I have my Maha.

Another problem is I can't programm my hobby charger to charge 16hours at 0.1C, wait 1hour and discharge at 0.2C. I can only configure 16hour shutdown timer but after that time I would have to manually start discharge.
 
Some chargers (e.g. some of the iChargers) have "Forming charge" option for NiMH's, this is essentially same as C9000's break-in.
 
I have iCharger 206B with this function but it works completly different compared to Maha:
"NiCd/NiMH forming charge
This forming charge program aims to eliminate capacity imbalance between cells in a battery.
The iCharger first charges with constant current (CC=1C) according to the user setting. When the charging
voltage reaches the peak threshold (1.48V/cell) it switches to the CV phase. In the CV phase the current
gradually falls. When the current drops to C/4 the iCharger will charge another 25% Capacity at C/10
current and then terminate the process."
 
That doesn't sound like a forming charge. Perhaps it does what it says it does ('eliminate capacity imbalance between cells in a battery'), perhaps not. For forming I'll stick with a 0.1C charge for a fixed period of time myself.

A Powerlab 8 multi-chemistry charger can be programmed to do a 0.1C charge for a specific time period; there is a max 24 hour watch dog timer as a safeguard. From that I can tell you can emulate everything the Maha charger does although with less automation and for a single cell only if you are exactly mirroring what the C9000 does. It costs several times more than a C9000.

I own both; I use my C9000 for breaking in NiMH cells. It's more convenient. If I had cells with so much capacity the C9000 couldn't handle, then and only then would I break out the PL8.
 
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As I have mentioned elsewhere in the past, hobby chargers are not the best tool for maintaining individual, or "loose" NiCd/NiMh cells. Li-Ion cells are a different story.

The problem with hobby chargers and nickel based cells, is that multiple cells can usually, only be charged in series. This is a problem that is hard to get around no matter how you go about it. For battery packs that are spot welded together, you don't have much choice but to charge them in series. This is why hobby chargers provide series charging for battery packs used in the R/C hobby. Nonetheless, charging cells in series always runs the risk of unequal charging of cells. As has been mentioned, at a 0.1C rate, this isn't so much of a problem, as this slow rate is less damaging to cells.

I've used the iCharger "forming charge" with welded battery packs, such as the 14.4 and 15.6 Volt packs used in my M@g 623, as well as other "packs". It seems to work well enough, although I agree that it isn't really quite the same as a true forming charge, or a"break-in", as is done with individual cells in a Maha C9000.

I have also used the iCharger "forming charge" to charge 4 "loose" NiMh D cells connected with magnets in series. As long as the cells are well matched and in the same state of charge at the beginning of charge, it will work reasonably well.

The biggest potential problem is likely to occur during the initial CC/CV portion of the charge (charge current is initially at a 1C rate, as you would normally enter the cell's capacity when setting up the charge). Checking the individual cells with a DMM during this phase will reveal that not all cells are at the exact same voltage. Again, if your cells are well matched and start out in the same state of charge, this shouldn't be much of a problem. If however, your cells are not well matched, you run the risk of overcharging one, or more cells during this first CC/CV stage. Once the program drops the current to 0.1C, the risk of overcharge is greatly reduced, as this is the same rate as an actual forming charge. That said, the damage may already be done at this point.

Short of using the iCharger "forming charge", I think the best way to attempt to duplicate a forming charge with a hobby charger, is to simply do a "normal" charge at a 0.1C rate, setting the time limit to 16hrs. Often hobby chargers will miss the -dV termination at this slow rate, and the charge will continue until the 16hr limit is reached. On the other hand, if the -dv does trigger, well, then you're screwed.:sigh:

I'll also add here that I've never had much luck charging single NiCd, or NiMh cells with a hobby charger. I've heard others mention this as well. I don't know what the problem is, but often termination is either too early, or is missed altogether, when charging a single cell. I've adjusted the -dV to no avail, attempting to correct this problem. The -dV termination seems to stand a much better chance of triggering when multiple cells are charged in series. I cannot explain why this is.

It is my opinion that other than for welded battery packs (again, where you have no choice but to charge cells in series), the charging of individual NiCd and NiMh cells, should be relegated to dedicated, independent channel, NiCd/NiMh chargers. Hobby chargers are really only meant for charging battery packs. As I mentioned earlier though, concerning Li-Ion cells, things are a bit different.

Dave
 
I have tried my 9500mAh Imedion D cells charged by my C9000 (by way of D-cell cradles) using the C9000's default charging mode which is 1C, or almost the 1c of my 9500mah x .1= 950.....but I have to do almost 3 charging cycles to fill it to the brim, so to speak. First two charging cycles ended exactly at 267 minutes each, then on the 3rd cycle from 39 to 46 minutes. What do you gentlemen think of this?

So it seems the jury is still out about this thread?
 
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Hello Tatasal,

You charged your cells. Charging is different than the Break In function. Charging charges until a termination signal ends the charge. The Break In function charges at 0.1C for 16 hours. This results in a slight over charge and that is what forms the cell.

In normal charging some "forming" also occurs, but it is much smaller when compared to the Break In charge.

Try doing a Break In on your cells with the C9000.

Tom
 
Hello Tatasal,

You charged your cells. Charging is different than the Break In function. Charging charges until a termination signal ends the charge. The Break In function charges at 0.1C for 16 hours. This results in a slight over charge and that is what forms the cell.

In normal charging some "forming" also occurs, but it is much smaller when compared to the Break In charge.

Try doing a Break In on your cells with the C9000.

Tom

Hi Tom,

Ahh...ok.

Actually I have tried the break-in already but did not finish the whole cycle because of power failure. And it happened twice already,
so I tried the next best thing, or so I thought! Btw, during the break-in charging portion, why did the cell (9500mAh D cell) got fairly
hot?....but in the default setting of the C9000 it was cool all the way through the more than 2 cycles...
 
Hello Tatasal,

Heat may be observed during the last few hours of the Break In charge. At this point the cell is actually being overcharged. If the cell heats up beyond just warm, I would suggest that you stop the charge. Warm is OK, hot is not.

Tom
 
I got some of those Tenergy D NiMH cells that were around from an ebay deep-discounter a while back -- old blue label with the lower case "e" .

They charge to around 8000 mAh (rated 10000) on an old CCrane or a RayOVac PS3.

On the Maha 9000 (with a single D holder and magnet/alligator connection) all of them show "HIGH" --- high resistance internally.
(
They were old stock, model no longer sold, I'd guess were in bad storage conditions
-- and they were really cheap so no great surprise)

I don't have a way to do a break-in or even refresh-analyze, and am hoping for a clue.

I do have an Accucel-6 hobby charger used for Li-ions (one at a time, so far).

Any suggestion welcomed for how to try to take these old Tenergy 10,000 D NiMH cells through any exercise that might extend what life they have left in them.
 
I do have an Accucel-6 hobby charger used for Li-ions (one at a time, so far).

Any suggestion welcomed for how to try to take these old Tenergy 10,000 D NiMH cells through any exercise that might extend what life they have left in them.

Well, you can sort of set it up similar to a forming charge on the Accucel-6. Firstly, you need to set the "Waste Time" to 60 minutes. That is the rest period between charges and discharges. Then turn off safety timer, set the voltage high on the d-peak to try and get the charger to miss termination, calculate and set the capacity cut-off to 1.6C, set up the cycles.

I think you can't use the the safety timer to terminate after 16 hours because it doesn't go that high or something. I forget as it was quite fiddly to do.
 
Hi Hank. If you want to use your Accucel 6 to try to do a forming charge on your D cells, try this.

Take each cell, one at a time and do a discharge at a relatively low discharge rate, no higher than 2A (my personal opinion is the lower the rate, the better, but this of course takes longer) to 1.00 Volt. After all the cells are discharged, get some small magnets and line the cells up in series so they are connected. Attach the main + and - leads from the charger to the end positive and negative ends of the "string" (magnet leads work great here).

Set up the charger to charge the "pack" at a 0.1C rate. For your 8000mAh cells, I'd go with 800mA, since that is what you think they actually are. It probably won't hurt, if you charge them at 1A (0.1C of 10,000mAh), but I'd still probably choose 800mA.

Set up the charger up with a time limit of 16hrs, or 960 minutes. Chances are, as I mentioned before, the charger will miss the -dV termination, and the charge will go on until the 16hrs is up, and then shut down. This constitutes a 16 hour forming charge. The only problem is, if the charger terminates with the -dV, which it might, but at a 0.1C rate, most likely it will miss -dV termination.

I'm no expert at charging D cells with a hobby charger, but I have done this with my 12 Volt Dynam Supermate DC6, and it worked. I've never done it with my iCharger 106B+ though.

What I've done more often, is after discharging, setup the cells in a similar manner, and charge them with a bench power supply, limiting the current to 0.1C. This way you have to do the timing yourself, but it accomplishes the same thing. Also, you don't have to worry about -dV termination, as there isn't any!

Hope this helps.

EDIT: I see Mr Floppy has provided some advice, as well. I hadn't thought about the timer limit. As I remember, my Dynam goes to 999 minutes though.

Dave
 
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Or just use your Maha C9000 and in the initial few second when internal resistance is measured, connect another cell paralelly to the measured one. Or some load like resistor, light bulb etc... - Maha will now think the battery is fresh with low internal resistance and will start charging.
 
EDIT: I see Mr Floppy has provided some advice, as well. I hadn't thought about the timer limit. As I remember, my Dynam goes to 999 minutes though.

I think the Turnigy has a max of 12 hours. Of course, it might be easier to turn off all the cut-offs and set an alarm clock.
 

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