Cars, Man

orbital

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How does California even generate electricity, it's like their against everything, yet ***** when there are blackouts.

We have a good twenty full size wind turbines maybe 10 miles to my west. They were put in around '01~'03
 

idleprocess

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"Midnight in Chernobyl" is definitely worth reading and I am pretty sick of the holier than thou EV drivers, especially here in California, because most electricity is still derived from natural gas and coal. And even if it's not, the negatives of solar and wind on weather and animals is not negligible. There's nothing green about energy.

Inherent to industrial society is damage to the environment in some shape or from. The realist perspective is not to zero this damage but to reduce it to a sustainable level.

The benefit of electric cars is a decoupling them from a specific fuel and reduction of point sources of air pollution. On a typical grid this does mean some displacement, however that displacement is to a more-efficient power station with better pollution controls and also not necessarily in a population center.
 

ledbetter

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"How does California even generate electricity, it's like their against everything, yet ***** when there are blackouts."

Which part of stupid to address first? The homonym typo? I live near a liquid propane power station cooled by the ocean. There are huge new solar farms owned by DWP in Mojave and the wind turbines near Palm Springs have permanently changed weather patterns. Other info I'm sure is googlable.

Faith in nuclear has been corroded to the point where it's a non starter politically though I'm sure it's much improved since its heyday. Midnight in Chernobyl is a worthwhile cautionary tale for any generation and for any new energy that is said to be a solution to all our problems. DDT is an excellent insecticide. Asbestos is an excellent insulation.
 

nbp

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Let's keep on the topic of Cars. If you want a general thread about green energy, nuclear power and fossil fuels, feel free to start one. Thanks.
 

jabe1

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cant they build magnetic chargers in the parking lots?

Magnetic chargers can't carry the necessary amperage.
This basically comes down to how badly do we want to change.
Most of us are more comfortable with the status quo, even when we know it is the worst option long term.
For those who think that EVs aren't fun, take a dual motor model 3 for a drive. Then look into EV conversions.
 

raggie33

*the raggedier*
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i have a buddy who builds hot rods he and others have to take the hotrods to the track on trailers lol. but most get beat by teslas who drive to the track and back home after racing. if i hit lotto im geting a ev hummer and tesla !😀
 

adnj

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cant they build magnetic chargers in the parking lots?
Current proposals include adding magnetic chargers in parking lots and on the curbside in cities and suburbs as a way to generate revenue for the local government or property owners. Or, it may be given away like Wifi at the coffeeshop.

In the cities, these would replace parking meters.

Current magnetic chargers are around 3.2kw and provide 12 miles of range per hour. There is currently quite a bit of research on improving the power transfer limit in the next few years. The current standard, SAE J2954, includes charging specifications up to 11kw or 35 miles of range per hour.

It might finally do something about people taking up two spaces in the parking lot, too.

images


WiTricity-2.jpg


https://www.greencarreports.com/new...e-standard-will-harmonize-systems-up-to-11-kw
 
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Chicken Drumstick

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It's really easy to burn coal & oil, REALLY REALLY easy,, but that is finite.
50 years from now, things will be fundamentally different.
To some extent, the natural supply of such fuels is certainly limited. However there are bio and synthetic fuel options out there that are far more easily renewable.
 

Chicken Drumstick

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Overnight at-home street parking in the EU and US is about 25% of all vehicles. Additionally, charge times for new battery technologies is targeted to match the refill time of ICE.

There is a great amount of technological improvement to be had in fuel cell, battery and wireless charging technology. There will likely be hybrid EV for the use scenarios that seem to be your pain points but the economies of ICE complexity point to moving toward electrification.

---------

Electric car batteries with five-minute charging times produced

Exclusive: first factory production means recharging could soon be as fast as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles

Batteries capable of fully charging in five minutes have been produced in a factory for the first time, marking a significant step towards electric cars becoming as fast to charge as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles.

Electric vehicles are a vital part of action to tackle the climate crisis but running out of charge during a journey is a worry for drivers. The new lithium-ion batteries were developed by the Israeli company StoreDot and manufactured by Eve Energy in China on standard production lines.

StoreDot has already demonstrated its "extreme fast-charging" battery in phones, drones and scooters and the 1,000 batteries it has now produced are to showcase its technology to carmakers and other companies. Daimler, BP, Samsung and TDK have all invested in StoreDot, which has raised $130m to date and was named a Bloomberg New Energy Finance Pioneer in 2020.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...es-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times

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Interesting. Although I'd assume charge times are also related to capacity. Charging a smaller battery quicker requires far less source energy.


So I suppose it goes back to infrastructure again, could you really support 1000's of vehicle fast charging a large battery pack at the same time?
 

adnj

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Interesting. Although I'd assume charge times are also related to capacity. Charging a smaller battery quicker requires far less source energy.


So I suppose it goes back to infrastructure again, could you really support 1000's of vehicle fast charging a large battery pack at the same time?

To fully charge? Yes.

EV's charging infrastructure requirements are not trivial and being reviewed and planned by many utilities. It is viewed by some utilities as a means to actually improve the electrical grid while recouping investment.

----------

Tom Baker, managing director and partner with Boston Consulting Group (BCG), told POWER: "We expect that a representative U.S. utility [with two to three million customers and baseline electricity sales of about 40,000 GWh], with 1.1 million EVs in service by 2030 [roughly 15% of all vehicles in such a utility's service area], would need to invest between $1,700 and $5,800 in grid upgrades per electric vehicle (EV) through 2030. Differences in customer charging patterns, or the degree to which charging happens when and where the grid is constrained, drive the range of grid upgrades needed.

"E-mobility will increase the demand for both energy and grid capacity, but we expect the impact to be larger on grid capacity than on energy," Baker said. "Assuming 15–20% of all vehicles in a representative utility's service area are EVs by 2030, and that the utility is somewhat successful at optimizing when and where EVs are charged, we expect a 5–10% increase in energy demand but a 25–33% increase in demand for grid capacity. The actual increases for a specific utility will depend on local EV penetration, the extent to which EV charging happens when or where the grid is already constrained, and the mix of charging infrastructure installed."

...

Itai Dadon, global head of Smart Cities for Itron, a technology company serving the energy industry, told POWER that utilities "are generally prepared to support the extra load from EVs on the grid. They are proactively taking steps to develop charging infrastructure and are also investing in hardening the grid to support supply and distribution needed. However, the ultimate vision is to incorporate EVs as DERs [distributed energy resources] in a highly dynamic smart grid environment. This will require additional investment in advanced grid orchestration. There is also room for improvement for utilities to improve the customer experience around EV programs. This includes new pricing programs to incentivize customers to charge during times and at specific locations that are ideal for the grid operators."

https://www.powermag.com/driving-change-on-the-grid-the-impact-of-ev-adoption/





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idleprocess

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Additionally, charge times for new battery technologies is targeted to match the refill time of ICE.
While the batteries themselves may be eventually capable of routine 5-10 minute recharge times without substantial degradation, the instantaneous power requirements to do this will be staggering.

Say we want to recharge a 100kWh pack from 0-100% in five minutes. Simple math suggests that this will require 1.2 megawatts of power. But the charging process isn't 100% efficient so at optimistic 95% efficiency even more power is needed to the tune of 1.26 MW - and that 5% loss means 63kW of waste heat to manage. A more realistic 80% charge drops the numbers slightly to 1.011MW and 51kW of waste heat. And these are of course simple average numbers that don't account for the variable power delivery to the battery pack depending on state of charge - at the lower end of the charge peak power will be higher in order to hit target charge duration.

Tesla's super chargers are more like 80% over 30 minutes, which for a 100kWH pack would mean 168kW gross power and at 95% efficiency 8.4kW of waste heat.

wireless charging technology
... is a great way to add cost, complexity, and inefficiency to the charging process at the scale of an EV. ~50% efficiency is acceptable for convenience charging a cellphone when the gross power consumption is 10W, less so when you're squandering kilowatts.

There will likely be hybrid EV
The Chevrolet Volt was probably the best attempt at a broad market PHEV and it was less than a banner success. While one can certainly criticize GM for radically redesigning the vehicle in the middle of the development process (to optimize efficiency of the engine when the battery was depleted) and argue that it was but a first stab at the concept, serving two very different masters in a vehicle design introduces a number of compromises. Commercial vehicles are apt to have fewer packaging challenges than a passenger car but the added cost and complexity of two systems are still present.
 

adnj

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While the batteries themselves may be eventually capable of routine 5-10 minute recharge times without substantial degradation, the instantaneous power requirements to do this will be staggering.

Say we want to recharge a 100kWh pack from 0-100% in five minutes. Simple math suggests that this will require 1.2 megawatts of power. But the charging process isn't 100% efficient so at optimistic 95% efficiency even more power is needed to the tune of 1.26 MW - and that 5% loss means 63kW of waste heat to manage. A more realistic 80% charge drops the numbers slightly to 1.011MW and 51kW of waste heat. And these are of course simple average numbers that don't account for the variable power delivery to the battery pack depending on state of charge - at the lower end of the charge peak power will be higher in order to hit target charge duration.

Tesla's super chargers are more like 80% over 30 minutes, which for a 100kWH pack would mean 168kW gross power and at 95% efficiency 8.4kW of waste heat.


... is a great way to add cost, complexity, and inefficiency to the charging process at the scale of an EV. ~50% efficiency is acceptable for convenience charging a cellphone when the gross power consumption is 10W, less so when you're squandering kilowatts.


The Chevrolet Volt was probably the best attempt at a broad market PHEV and it was less than a banner success. While one can certainly criticize GM for radically redesigning the vehicle in the middle of the development process (to optimize efficiency of the engine when the battery was depleted) and argue that it was but a first stab at the concept, serving two very different masters in a vehicle design introduces a number of compromises. Commercial vehicles are apt to have fewer packaging challenges than a passenger car but the added cost and complexity of two systems are still present.
You will likely see a move in hybrid EV to more or less standardized, smaller, more efficient fuel-burning engines that are inherently less expensive to manufacture. Hybrid EV will continue to suffer from a cost penalty compared to plug-in EV while offering flexibility that will appeal so those buyers that make that choice.

Electrical grid and generation capacity are not sufficient in most locations but the option of micro-generation exists and utilities are reviewing grid and generation requirements for EV (take a look at the link in the preceding post). You can take your pick of the fuels down to the homeowner level.

Current automotive inductive charger standards are 94% efficient at 11kw with an air gap of 10 inches. Higher charge currents at similar efficiencies are reached by reducing the air gap - I don't recall the charge current to air gap curve.

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raggie33

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we used to have a cool guy on this forum id guess he had the first eletric car. i.miss him havenot seeen him.in a decade or so
 

greenpondmike

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I like the cars y'all first started talking about at the beginning. I apologize if I offended anyone.
 
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idleprocess

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You will likely see a move in hybrid EV to more or less standardized, smaller, more efficient fuel-burning engines that are inherently less expensive to manufacture. Hybrid EV will continue to suffer from a cost penalty compared to plug-in EV while offering flexibility that will appeal so those buyers that make that choice.
Insofar as a reasonable PHEV's go, The BMW i3 REx lives on, however it's inflicted with a baffling compliance-driven artificial gas tank limitation and resale value retention that suffers from borderline hyperdeflation. There are other models of PHEV, but they're either clearly conventional cars with a motor/generator bolted onto the conventional ICE drivetrain and whatever minuscule battery pack could be shoehorned into the remaining volume/mass envelope or conventional hybrids with beefier battery packs.

I'm not aware of any development efforts in the pipeline for PHEV passenger vehicles with substantial range. A startup company - Workhorse - appears to have dropped their plans for the W15 PHEV pickup truck.

Electrical grid and generation capacity are not sufficient in most locations but the option of micro-generation exists and utilities are reviewing grid and generation requirements for EV (take a look at the link in the preceding post). You can take your pick of the fuels down to the homeowner level.
The electrical grid adds capacity - both in terms of generation and distribution - continuously. The hand-wringing over home-charging EVs is baffling - no one worries about a new subdivision going in or installing a large multi-dwelling complex where there once stood something that consumes markedly less power. EVs will not replace any huge percentage of ICEs overnight thus this growth can be planned for like any other growth in demand.

Fast-charging at "gas pump" speeds isn't likely to happen for the reasons I mentioned above. Even if the instantaneous power demand can be gotten around - the local grid can handle that kind of power delivery, some means is devised to reduce the load down to average vis-à-vis some local buffer, or local generation capacity is available (ironically most likely via a natural gas-powered generator) - the expense is going to be far greater than the fueling station model is likely to sustain.

If Tesla's Supercharger experience is anything to go by, ~40 minutes to recharge 80% is acceptable.

Current automotive inductive charger standards are 94% efficient at 11kw with an air gap of 10 inches. Higher charge currents at similar efficiencies are reached by reducing the air gap - I don't recall the charge current to air gap curve.
Better than what I was reading about 5+ years ago where it was something closer to 75%, but that's a lot of cost and complexity just to avoid plugging in.
 

Empath

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Let's keep on the topic of Cars. If you want a general thread about green energy, nuclear power and fossil fuels, feel free to start one. Thanks.

One would think the words of a moderator would be honored for the wisdom, not to mention the ability to bring about the fulfillment pf the recommendations.

A casual browsing of the thread, as it was before the topic changed, will reveal conclusively the purpose and theme of this thread.

My recommendation that the off-topic subject be taken elsewhere, should be taken soon.
 
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