Catapult V2 w/ smo (thoughts/pics) OTF #'s low.
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JCD
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Fair enough. Will the light produce 1000 lumens without the head, just measuring the emitter's output?
JB. I dont think we make any mistakes, first, I advertise the MAx LED lumens is 1000 lumens from the spec of luminus. correct? for OFT lumens. I never advertise it. correct? as for the loss on the LED lumens. You do not require what we should do .You should consider the same LED. what the others can make? what do you think?
Actually. we always serve our customer. if mention expectation. you should expect the Luminus LED. you never test the LED. and tell us loss 40% lumens on our light?I think this is not fair to us.
So. when we get the SSt-50 LED. I think the LED is single die. and be applied on super throw light. it is a good replacement for MC-E LED. for all. we do not mark the OFT lumens. and you can not say My mark is not correct. since our data come from LUminus. If you think our data has problem. first you should think about the luminus LED as well. not ours!
Best Regards
David
csshih
Flashlight Enthusiast
There honestly is too much "lumen obsessing" and pointing fingers in this thread. I know that Thrunite does not want to make any false claims to tarnish his reputation... David himself is even taking time to post in the thread..; because he does not have a integrating sphere, he simply quotes from the luminous spec sheet with the current he knows the LED is being driven at. What's the point in lying? He knows he would be completely debunked on CPF.
Also, People should know by now that deeper reflectors = less output, but, more throw. A 30-40% drop really doesn't sound that abnormal.
Now, something to think about.....
These are the true questions to be asking.. (I seriously doubt there is a problem with heatsinking as the entire light gets hot.)
Also, People should know by now that deeper reflectors = less output, but, more throw. A 30-40% drop really doesn't sound that abnormal.
Now, something to think about.....
These are the true questions to be asking.. (I seriously doubt there is a problem with heatsinking as the entire light gets hot.)
021411
Enlightened
There is nothing wrong with obsessing about lumens. Different strokes for different folks. After all lights are getting brighter and brighter. I care about lumens and one of the reasons I purchased this light. It was supposed to be bright as advertised. While it is, it could have been brighter with all the changes.
Sure there are changes (V2) for the better but the whole 1000 emitter lumen on high description is the kicker. Does it do that on paper? Sure according to David. Does it represent the actual product? Nope IMO. Maybe they should stop quoting specs and start quoting real numbers give or take on their actual product as a whole. I have no reason to defend any company as i don't do any product testing or consulting.
Maybe ThruNite and other companies should start putting disclaimers on their products. The xxxx light will put out xx-xx% less output due to the design of the reflector. You think it would sell?
I have every right to complain as a consumer.
What's done is done and now we know that the V2 is acceptable at 600-700 lumens out the front. Not much can be done now.
Sure there are changes (V2) for the better but the whole 1000 emitter lumen on high description is the kicker. Does it do that on paper? Sure according to David. Does it represent the actual product? Nope IMO. Maybe they should stop quoting specs and start quoting real numbers give or take on their actual product as a whole. I have no reason to defend any company as i don't do any product testing or consulting.
Maybe ThruNite and other companies should start putting disclaimers on their products. The xxxx light will put out xx-xx% less output due to the design of the reflector. You think it would sell?
I have every right to complain as a consumer.
What's done is done and now we know that the V2 is acceptable at 600-700 lumens out the front. Not much can be done now.
021411
Enlightened
Just stepping back for a second and getting off my small soap box, am i the only one that sees a problem with the whole issue (technical stuff aside)?
Maybe I was expecting way too much out of the product and it let me down a bit.
Again, I mean no disrespect to any member here. We all share the same passion. I spent hours of my day here and love it. Wouldn't be anywhere else. 😎
Maybe I was expecting way too much out of the product and it let me down a bit.
Again, I mean no disrespect to any member here. We all share the same passion. I spent hours of my day here and love it. Wouldn't be anywhere else. 😎
JCD
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I think your 1000 lumen claim is, at best, misleading. It raises customer expectations, and your light doesn't meet those expectations. When a product doesn't meet the expectations of a customer, that customer is typically disappointed. That disappointment doesn't hinge on whether or not your claim constitutes, by the letter of the law, false advertising. That disappointment isn't going to be mitigated by you attempting to pass the blame on to the LED manufacturer. If you used their numbers, then you own those claims as well, and need to be able to back them up with measurable output.
600 lumens is a respectable level of output from a flashlight- unless the customer is expecting 1000 lumens.
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jimmy1970
Flashlight Enthusiast
That's the usual cop out the cheapy manufacturers use. They know that lumens sells lights like HP sells cars.
Until everybody advertises only OTF lumens, people will be misled.
ThruNite, how about advertising the amount of light that actually comes out of the light like Surefire, Malkoff, HDS Lights etc.
Or at least offer both Emitter & OTF output figures! Until then, you will be in the same boat as DX IMHO.
James....
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csshih
Flashlight Enthusiast
yes, but the main problem is consistency! *ONLY* if every single manufacturer gets their lights tested in a properly calibrated integrating sphere, and EVERYONE posts ACCURATE OTF lumens, would it be reasonable to expect "correct" lumen readings from companies.
JCD
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I agree. If companies don't have the resources to measure their lights' outputs, we shouldn't expect correct readings from them.
But, we also should expect incorrect readings from them. If they make claims, those claims should be verifiable. If the claims can't be verified, they shouldn't be made.
FroggyTaco
Flashlight Enthusiast
BigC tested a 2nd V2 catapult last night. I don't remember the numbers because I helped test about 10-15 lights, so I will let him do the numbers thing when he gets around to it.
David, this is a classic case of relying too much on theory and manufacturer's specs. Yes, I know you calculated the lumens based on the data from Luminus. I'll give you a pass on that this time.
But if you were truly responsible and aim to serve your customer, in future you should do more in house testing and verification. This would elevate your reputation and credibility to the next level.
It'll be a while before that happens. But until then I guess those companies that do advertise OTF lumens may have a slight marketing advantage over those who don't. Even so, it would be good to have 3rd party testing just to ensure that the advertised OTF lumens is met.
As for those companies that don't advertise OTF lumens I guess we'll just have to take their claims with a pinch of salt, or wait until 3rd party reviews comes up with numbers (then make a decision to buy or not).
Then just state maximum emitter lumens to be 1000. Thats all. There's no lying. There's disclosure. I suggest David to contact their retailers to edit the advertise specs and disclose that it's 1000 lumens at the emitter at max.
Simple. No fuss. Until we get the data regarding otf lumens, stick to this.
Simple. No fuss. Until we get the data regarding otf lumens, stick to this.
rethinking this a bit...
If we start with manufacturer spec maximum of 1000 lumens.
Subtract about 10% for an 80C junction temp. (not uncommon at all in a flashlight)
so, we now have 900 hot emitter lumens.
Throw out about 25% for reflector/glass losses.
This should leave us with 675 OTF.
However, this is assuming that the emitter is at to very top of the manufacturer spec.
If we start with a middle of the road emitter at 916 lumens.
subtract 10%
824 hot emitter lumens.
subtract 25% for OTF
618 lumens.
This is pretty darn close to the measured output from this light.
This type of calculation should be used for nearly every high powered LED light IMO.
BTW. The Catapult is decent, beefy, thrower.
Nice tool to have in the dark.
If we start with manufacturer spec maximum of 1000 lumens.
Subtract about 10% for an 80C junction temp. (not uncommon at all in a flashlight)
so, we now have 900 hot emitter lumens.
Throw out about 25% for reflector/glass losses.
This should leave us with 675 OTF.
However, this is assuming that the emitter is at to very top of the manufacturer spec.
If we start with a middle of the road emitter at 916 lumens.
subtract 10%
824 hot emitter lumens.
subtract 25% for OTF
618 lumens.
This is pretty darn close to the measured output from this light.
This type of calculation should be used for nearly every high powered LED light IMO.
BTW. The Catapult is decent, beefy, thrower.
Nice tool to have in the dark.
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I wonder how much a difference in brightness the eye would really detect between 600 and 700 lumens.
Anyway, after spending some time worrying about the light, I got it in the mail and have to say that all that worrying brought on by this thread was for nothing. For me I find the light to be bright and a nice thrower which I can use CR123s in. I'm happy.
Anyway, after spending some time worrying about the light, I got it in the mail and have to say that all that worrying brought on by this thread was for nothing. For me I find the light to be bright and a nice thrower which I can use CR123s in. I'm happy.
Fusion_m8
Flashlight Enthusiast
I'm so glad that moddoo finally produced some facts to put an end to this witch hunt.
Thrunite has done nothing wrong at all and their intentions were to build us a fantastic light at a affordable price.
This affordable price came about through reduced manufacturing costs, which means having to sacrifice in investing in a calibrated integrating sphere.
Which basically leaves Thrunite to quote manufacturer's or suppliers figures and not actual tested figures, which is fair enough.
If people feel wronged and sabotaged by the actual output figures, shoot the manufacturer of the LED, not Thrunite.
Thrunite never promised that the Catapult was kicking out 1000lumens OTF. It said 1000lumens max at emitter. There's nothing deceitful or malicious about that.
If a person has the interest to buy a flashlight like the Catapult, they ought to be mature and sensible enough to do their research on CPF before buying the light. Its just like buying a car, do we buy the car based on what the salesperson and brochure says or do we get qualified opinions and figures from motoring magazines, forums and websites?
Please... change the channel... its getting boring.:tired:
Thrunite has done nothing wrong at all and their intentions were to build us a fantastic light at a affordable price.
This affordable price came about through reduced manufacturing costs, which means having to sacrifice in investing in a calibrated integrating sphere.
Which basically leaves Thrunite to quote manufacturer's or suppliers figures and not actual tested figures, which is fair enough.
If people feel wronged and sabotaged by the actual output figures, shoot the manufacturer of the LED, not Thrunite.
Thrunite never promised that the Catapult was kicking out 1000lumens OTF. It said 1000lumens max at emitter. There's nothing deceitful or malicious about that.
If a person has the interest to buy a flashlight like the Catapult, they ought to be mature and sensible enough to do their research on CPF before buying the light. Its just like buying a car, do we buy the car based on what the salesperson and brochure says or do we get qualified opinions and figures from motoring magazines, forums and websites?
Please... change the channel... its getting boring.:tired:
diggopaiva
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