Cheap Lights = Beware !

[old4570]

Ok , I say beware , because the simple truth is , if you buy at a low price point , just how much quality can be built into the light ?

Lets start at $15 or less shipped to your door :
Shipping cost = Would say $5 be fair ? its just an example , but you get the idea . Then the re-seller has to make a profit = Now were talking $10 , lets say $3 profit for arguments sake , now its a $7 light ..

The manufacturer needs to make a profit , lets say $2 ...
That $15 shipped to your door light is now a $5 light from the manufacturer .

I hope you get the idea , when you buy cheap , your getting cheap ! And in doing so you the buyer , are taking a risk , a very well founded one , that there may not be a hell of a lot of quality built into this light .

Now thats not to say that you may not get one thats brilliant , the bargain of the century , but the odds are equal , that you may get the dog of the year as well ...

You may seriously want to consider spending another 5-10 Dollars so that at least 5-10 Dollars of quality is built into the light , and then you have to ask yourself if that is enough !

Cheap lights are great for those with DIY skills , any problems encountered are usually easily fixed , and when the light has been trouble shot , may very well last as long as those on the other end of the market .

Did anyone actually live through the 70's when a lot of rubbish came from Japan , the 80's when rubbish came from Taiwan , 90's the Philippines , 2000 China - India - Pakistan ?

Point is , at that $15 price , you may very well be looking at a $5 to manufacture light , and your expecting quality ?
Please remember , you buy cheap your most likely getting cheap , so please bear that in mind when buying at the lower end of the market .

 

[carrot]

Oh, don't forget quality LED's are about $4/ea from Cree.

 

[DM51]

DX Graveyard - just a few examples from many hundreds of similar posts we've seen here on CPF...

 

[astro4554]

"Buy cheap, buy twice" has always been a good axiom.

There are times when a bargain is found at a relatively low price from a dealer that simply "piles them high and sells them cheap". Many businesses in the "First" world have been founded on this principle.

Tesco springs to mind in the UK, although they are not as cheap since they became virtually omnipotent over here.

The Chinese understand that quality control costs money, that's why they do so much better at it when we are prepared to pay for it, than when we are not, and thence buy things from the likes of DX and KD. A lottery is a tax on fools, but sometimes the fool gets lucky.

Still, it's always nice to find a bargain, even if at the expense of a little pocket wasted money.

 

[old4570]

Dont get me wrong , I love my cheap lights .
But there are pitfalls to buying cheap , and people need to be aware of them .
It helps if they buy wisely .

Buy lights that are by design easy to fix/trouble shoot .
Easy to buy parts for [ P60 Hosts ]
And do the research .

I love cheap P60 hosts most of all , its a well established design that by now is hard to get wrong , and so easy to work on .
I own 18 P60 Hosts , all on the cheaper end of the scale , and none of them have been faulty .

And any problems that arise are either easy to fix , or its the driver ..
For me , 2 lights had faulty drivers , a Smallsun and a SAIK .. which would = about 5% or maybe less as a % of the cheap lights Ive purchased .

I can live with that ...

 

[how2]

I hope you get the idea , when you buy cheap , your getting cheap ! And in doing so you the buyer , are taking a risk , a very well founded one , that there may not be a hell of a lot of quality built into this light.

It's all about economies of scale and labour cost. Mostly the Raw materials are the same price around the world, labour costs is what counts in the manufacturing process.

You may seriously want to consider spending another 5-10 Dollars so that at least 5-10 Dollars of quality is built into the light , and then you have to ask yourself if that is enough !

Or is taken as profit by the manufacturer or is taken up in the supply chain. It may never be put back into materials cost(i.e quality)

Did anyone actually live through the 70's when a lot of rubbish came from Japan , the 80's when rubbish came from Taiwan , 90's the Philippines , 2000 China - India - Pakistan ?

Yes I did, in Aus you may have got the B grade products. Here in the U.K the Japs were killing off the Motorcycle industry, we were relying on Brand names and Brand loyalty. The Japs produced better Quality Motorcycles at a lower price point. People still said that they were no good. Look what happened to the motorcycle industry in the U.K.

Point is , at that $15 price , you may very well be looking at a $5 to manufacture light , and your expecting quality ?
Please remember , you buy cheap your most likely getting cheap , so please bear that in mind when buying at the lower end of the market .

The same can be said for Brand name goods when you buy an Nike shoes . You pay for the Name not the quality in most cases, it's all about marketing hype. The Nike AIr max costs £110 buy in the U.K, Manufacturing cost are only £5 in total. Someone is profiteering. It's definitely not the poor workers in these countries.

Oh, don't forget quality LED's are about $4/ea from Cree.

When you say $4 each is this wholesale price or retail.

In the U.K i can purchase 1000 xp-g r4 for £2000. which is $3200.
therefore £2 or $3.2 each.

It's all about economies of scale and labour cost. Mostly the Raw materials are the same price around the world, labour costs is what counts in the manufacturing process.

Do not worry about buying a cheap lights because your are probably putting food on someone's table.

 

[underdunk]

So if a newbie wanted a cheap light that he wouldn't have to worry about having to fix or fiddle with, what brands are generally of better quality? Would one assume that a Romisen be a safer bet than an Akoray any of those *fire branded lights?

 

[old4570]

Solarforce = :candle:

Actually , as the price goes up , so does quality = Generally speaking ..

Its not just material choice : Its also components ..

Generally speaking , lets take my little smallsun as an example .. $10.55 Shipped .

The body and the LED are fine :

The heatsink , or lack there off , is just a threaded tube that the led and driver are pressed into each end . Cheap and worse nasty !

Now , if you buy a light costing a few dollars more , you get an actual heatsink , the led may be glued on , and the driver soldered in place , and the driver may last longer than a few days ..

Actually cough up $20 for a similar light , and you may get one thats put together with what look like pride , seems to be quality all around , and has [ maybe ] gold plated springs . And has programmable modes and thermal protection ...

Again , do the research ! If you go the cheap option , and leave the manufacturer with no room to build in some quality , what do you expect .
That 5-10 will get you better components , and maybe a better contractor .
One would hope !!! Im not saying you cant buy a dog for more , sure you can , Im just saying , can you compare a $10 light to a $20 light ..
If you look hard enough you can buy lights for under $4 , and I have ..
But you should be fully aware of what you are buying ...
All Im saying is go in with your eyes open , dont open them in amazement when the package arrives ....

 

[how2]

So if a newbie wanted a cheap light that he wouldn't have to worry about having to fix or fiddle with, what brands are generally of better quality? Would one assume that a Romisen be a safer bet than an Akoray any of those *fire branded lights?

When you go to the sites that sell these lights read the reviews and most definitely read the forums which are more accurate. Use common sense. There are great cheap lights out there for $15 or less. The quality is geting better. Don't forget it's your hard earned cash that you are spending.

 

[bogeymachine]

can we talk about $15 Solarforce L2Ms that I think are counterfeit or 2nds?

 

[old4570]

It's all about economies of scale and labour cost. Mostly the Raw materials are the same price around the world, labour costs is what counts in the manufacturing process.

Yes and no = labour cost is a factor , but greed is the larger factor


Or is taken as profit by the manufacturer or is taken up in the supply chain. It may never be put back into materials cost(i.e quality)

With lights = more money = more quality / usually



Yes I did, in Aus you may have got the B grade products. Here in the U.K the Japs were killing off the Motorcycle industry, we were relying on Brand names and Brand loyalty. The Japs produced better Quality Motorcycles at a lower price point. People still said that they were no good. Look what happened to the motorcycle industry in the U.K.

Jap bikes got good by the 70's , but we are talking electronics , and a lot of junk came out of japan in the 70's [ not saying they didnt make good stuff as well ] But cheap Jap Sh*t was the catch phrase in the 70s


The same can be said for Brand name goods when you buy an Nike shoes . You pay for the Name not the quality in most cases, it's all about marketing hype. The Nike AIr max costs £110 buy in the U.K, Manufacturing cost are only £5 in total. Someone is profiteering. It's definitely not the poor workers in these countries.

Not sure you can compare electronics to shoes ???


When you say $4 each is this wholesale price or retail.

In the U.K i can purchase 1000 xp-g r4 for £2000. which is $3200.
therefore £2 or $3.2 each.

It's all about economies of scale and labour cost. Mostly the Raw materials are the same price around the world, labour costs is what counts in the manufacturing process.

Do not worry about buying a cheap lights because your are probably putting food on someone's table.

Unfortunately , its a lot to do with the margin , a lot o manufacturers move production to save on labor cost to keep the profit margin . Also many manufacturers refused to modernize in the 80's and 90's , so found themselves un-able or un-willing to compete by 2000 , and just moved there antiquated 1950/60's machines to china or mexico .. Or some other 3rd world country [ Pakistan - India , Indonesia etc ]

Its cheaper to move your labor intensive factory than modernize and keep jobs in your own country , the sad truth of modern greed .

And one of the best examples of this is the US Steel industry ... They refused to modernize , and by the 90's it was just way cheaper to outsource ...

As for English bikes , the manufacturers become complacent , did not modernize , The Japanese Copied and improved , its what they do best .
If you dont move forward , you fall behind !

 

[Norm]

can we talk about $15 Solarforce L2Ms that I think are counterfeit or 2nds?

Well now there's a cost saving R&D $0
Norm

 

[old4570]

can we talk about $15 Solarforce L2Ms that I think are counterfeit or 2nds?

The ones on DX or KD , ??

Yes , I got one , just for the heck of it ..

There OK , not as good as ??? Real Solarforce made one [ if there counterfeit ] , but certainly more than usable .. And if all you do is replace the battery [ on and off with the tail cap ] you wont really notice .
+ Not quite the same output as the real deal either , I think the drivers are 900mA ones , or at least mine was [ single mode ] .

But for $15 , its worth $15 , every cent of it .. Mine was , no buyers remorse . Just dont expect the same tolerances in the fits , as this one will be a little more generous . So if you demand perfection , the L2p might be better .

Bottom line , its a usable torch and if mine is anything to go bye , should last a long time and offer good service . It is a $15 flashlight , so there is the possibility , you might get one thats not 100% .

How many packets of cigarettes is $15 , its like one movie ticket these days .
So ?

 

[T0RN4D0]

Er. Shipping from china costs about 1$ for a 15$ flashlight.

And while the resellers around here won't take anything less then a 300% price increase, the Chinese for example, know that they won't sell anything for that much. Thats why they do it the other way around, and sell it dirt cheap, but because of that they sell that much more. Its harder to ship out 20 lights and get the same profit as grossly overcharging for 1, but it brings home the bacon.

And of course big companies don't pay 4$ for an emitter.


All that being said, buying a $15 light here in my country will get you a light that manufacturer sold for about $3. Ordering a $15 light from china, will get me a light that manufacturer probably put out for about 9$.

Yes, it is still a $9 light. For that you get the head, with lens, reflector, emitter, driver, body and a switch, assembled. QC is virtually non-existent, i will give you that. But if you test it, check out the soldering joints, thermal conductivity and tighten everything up, there really isn't that much to go wrong. Of course, you wouldn't bet your life on an untested $15 light. But for every day use spending $200 on a body alone (the part that chinese manufacturer produce for $1 and gets the job done just as good) is something not many people will do. For most people even the 20-30$ spent for a decent knock-off light is too much.

Might as well go and tell people not to drive in the cheap $15k cars, when a $400k Maybach or even a modest $100k Audi A8 will be much better. In reality, a lot of people will just buy some used car that will get the job done, and live with a few more auto mechanic visits and a lower safety rating. Its not about them not knowing that a 100 times more expensive car isn't better, its about them having other priorities to spend it on.

 

[amigafan2003]

Personally I find posting a topic with the title "Cheap lights - beware" in a budget light section to be in slighlty poor taste.

We're all aware of the advantages and disadvantages of budget lights - I'd rather let the individual topics raised against individual lights do the talking about quality, rather than a "tar all with the same brush" post.

 

[IMSabbel]

I also dont like the title.

It seems people sometimes lose the grasp for what money can buy.
By personal limit on what to spend for a light is around $100, but i have total understanding for somebody whose is at $20.

For $25 you can get a toaster, and el cheapo electric hand-drill, an electric knife, some nice electric kettle, etc.

All those things require more resources, more shipping coast (bulky and heavier) and more manual work to produce.

A led light, in the simplest case of s twisty, is just a 2-piece aluminium tube with a single assemble put in front.

The reason for the shoddy quality is most likely caused by the fact that even for $15 they still make money from the lights.
Other mass produced goods of equal complexity usually have higher QC levels.

You wont get nice finishes, square threads, AR coated windows, etc, but there is really nothing that prevents anybody from building a perfectly workable led light for less than $10 total production cost.

 

[LeifUK]

Personally I find posting a topic with the title "Cheap lights - beware" in a budget light section to be in slighlty poor taste.

We're all aware of the advantages and disadvantages of budget lights - I'd rather let the individual topics raised against individual lights do the talking about quality, rather than a "tar all with the same brush" post.

That is my feeling too, hence my reason for starting a survey of a popular budget light. I have no idea how good or bad the QC control is on these lights, but just posting "They're all crap" or "They're brilliant" is uninformative.

 

[jk037]

I'm also getting sick of seeing the same members posting the same garbage about cheap lights.


Let me make it clear...

• Most of us KNOW and ACCEPT that DX et al don't have much/anything in the way of QC
• This brings an element of chance into it - that bargain light may be a cracker, it may be a dog...
• Nevertheless, we also know that with a little tinkering we can often achieve similar performance to a "big brand" light at a fraction of the cost...
• ... which is useful for those people whose flashlight budget is very small...
• ... and just plain fun for nerds like me who actually LIKE to tinker with, modify and improve their lights!
• If all else fails, although the process takes time, the collective opinion is that DX will replace faulty lights eventually.
• And most CPFers, whether their flashlight collection is worth $20 or $20000, understand where someone's life may depend upon it, a cheap light is not a good idea!

So please can we stop hearing the same tired old stating-the-bleedin'-obvious crap? If you think that all DX lights are trash, then say so, ONCE, and thereafter just keep your nose out of threads on this subject!

This particularly applies to a certain Moderator who really ought to know better than to use his/her "authority" to ride roughshod over the opinions of anyone who dares disagree with his/her own opinion (and seems to think all topics regarding budget lights should be unceremoniously and indiscriminately amalgamated into a single thread, whereas near-identical threads discussing expensive lights are left alone).

 

[ragweed]

I have a 15 buck Fenix E01 but, I don't consider it cheaply made at all. If anything it is a real quality light & made very good & tuff.

 

[CampingLED]

I must admit that I did not read all the posts in detail, but did a quick text search on some of the things that I wanted to say.

how2, you are a wise person and share my thoughts (your posts came up on my search). If I started a new thread with "Do not buy Surefire, it is over priced" it would have been closed in less than a day with many, many comments (both positive and negative). I am busy with a headlamp and it gives me great satisfaction. Friends did the lathe work for me and compared to my cheap lights it is not even close to the quality.

I thought many times that it would be nice if I can put this nice light into production and have more advanced manufacturing techniques freely available.

Do I need a custom made titanium light to EDC and drop a few times per day on a concrete floor. My "cheap" SS light is holding up very well and I do not want to replace it. Has it failed me? Not yet (could be because of my "cheap" driver mod that took a few minutes and cost $2 for parts. Do I want a custom made titanium light? Will be nice to have, but i.t.o. practicality it may not be used that much.