clarification on rechargable batteries

D

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I just came from Radio Shack and the guy told me that milli-amps (mh) only determines the run time in the battery before another recharge is needed, and it has nothing to do with the light output of the bulb (halogen, xenon). Is this true? And he told me to pick up a 2-Cell halogen bulb for my old 3-cell maglite since I'm using rechargables. I didn't open the light bulb package yet. I just wanted some opinions on all of this before I open the package. Is what this guy at radio shack said true? or should I return the 2-cell halogen unopen. And which is really brighter? Halogen or Xenon?
 
The guy wasn't lying. But his info is far from the complete story. Amps figures into the bulb and the battery. The battery has an amp capacity (determining runtime dependent on draw.) and output. Output being the ability to deliver enough amps for the bulb. Alkalines top out around .9 amps. Nicads and Lithiums can deliver a lot higher.

The bulb has a draw. A 2 cell bulb with .85 amp draw will be brighter than a 2 cell bulb with .5 amp draw. Assuming the batteries are up to the task.

The different bulb gasses will change the color temp of the bulb and make it a little brighter. But my experience show the bulbs wattage is the biggest determanent of brightness.

I would recomend a Carley Lamps Krypton Star in the rechargeable version. They have a 3 cell bulb in various amp ratings.
 
The guy in the store is wrong.

First of all, the mAh of the battery determines whether or not the battery can stand the drain of a particular lamp without dropping its' voltage (and therefore dimming the lamp).

In your 3 cell Mag Light, for example, if you use 3 hi cap C cells, each about 1800 mAh, the batteries will not support a 1.5 A or 1.7 A KSR (Krypton Star Rechargeable) lamp (i.e. a KSR 1.5A or KSR 1.7A lamp). The lamp will be dim, as the small batteries cannot support such a large load. If you use 3 hi cap D cells, each 4500 mAh, then the KSR 1.5 or KSR 1.7 lamp will be bright; these lamps will last about 90 min with freshly recharged D batteries.

The reason he told you to use a 2 cell lamp in a 3 NiCd cell lamp is because the NiCd lamps run at a nominal 1.2 V. Thus, alkaline 3 cell lamps might run at 4.5 V, but NiCd 3 cell lamps might run at only 3.6 V. This is close to the 3.0 V of a 2 cell alkaline flashlight. However, the discharge characteristics of the batteries are different; alkaline cells discharge in a linear fashion, while NiCds tend to hold their working voltage near 1.2 V (after an initial small drop from about 1.4 V which is where they are immediately after recharging).
What this means is that the NiCds will actually hold a lamp at a HIGHER average voltage. This will shorten lamp life. This is why Carley makes KSA (Krypton Star Alkaline) as well as KSR lamps.

Here is the deal. Unless you have a lot of money tied up in high cap rechargable batteries, forget NiCds. Just use a XS (Xenon Star) lamp. With alkaline cells. The XS lamp only draws about 10% more than a KSA lamp, but is a lot brighter. Plus, the XS lamp will burn 10-12 hours with a fresh set of alkalines.

Despite the higher candlepower rating of the KSR lamps, and their much higher amperage then KSA and XS lamps, I have found that in practice, the XS lamps are as bright as the KSR lamps. They run at a higher color temperature.

Forget NiCds.

Walt Welch
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Walt Welch:

Here is the deal. Unless you have a lot of money tied up in high cap rechargable batteries, forget NiCds. Just use a XS (Xenon Star) lamp. With alkaline cells. The XS lamp only draws about 10% more than a KSA lamp, but is a lot brighter. Plus, the XS lamp will burn 10-12 hours with a fresh set of alkalines.

Despite the higher candlepower rating of the KSR lamps, and their much higher amperage then KSA and XS lamps, I have found that in practice, the XS lamps are as bright as the KSR lamps. They run at a higher color temperature.


Walt Welch
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Walt,
Where can I find these bulbs? I have a mag 3D and I am unhappy with the yellow, relatively dim output of the factory lamp. People have recommended Carly lamps but being illiterate on lamp terminology, I cannot find a direct replacement for the lamp on their web site. I only get voltage/watt ratings, etc. I have no idea what the load voltage is for my light. I want a brighter, whiter light and from what you describe in this post, the XS lamps are exactly what I'm looking for. Can you tell/point me to a location where I can get exact info on a direct replacement XS lamp for my mag 3D light? BTW, thank you for the response on the rechargeable battery for my Surefire 8X.
 
geepondy...

The lamp you want from Carley is #713, which is the Xenon Star for 3-cell Mags.

Carley normally requires a $50 minimum order. So unless you're planning to buy lots of bulbs, try someone else like Walt himself or Tim Flanagan.
 
eynlai,
Most everything stated above is correct except for the comment from Walt "First of all, the mAh of the battery determines whether or not the battery can stand the drain of a particular lamp without dropping its' voltage (and therefore dimming the lamp)."
The mAh is the rating of the ability to sustain a useful voltage at a specified current level for 1 hour. An example : 1700 mAh Fast-Charge Sub-C nicads will deliver approx. 1.2 volts at 1.7 Amps current draw for 1 hour. These cells are matched at current draws of 20 to 30 Amps and average 1.14 - 1.16 volts at that draw. Nicads can deliver a huge amount of current for short periods of time where alkalines deliver smaller amounts of current for longer periods of time.

Jerry
 
stringj; my esteemed colleague; you are correct, in so far as theory goes.

However, I actually *did* what I wrote about, more than once. The C NiCds were simply unable to keep the KS3R 1.7A lamp bright. I had to go to a KS3R 1.3A lamp in order to have a bright lamp.

Sometimes actual empirical data are more useful than theory.

Walt
 
Walt,
I can only suggest that the nicads you used were defective. I have raced radio control cars for 11 years which utilize Sub-C nicads. These are similar (actually higher quality) cells to those used in the Surefire line of rechargeable flashlights. I have one of the Surefire 9N lights for which I made a stick battery out of left over Sub-C cells, and it is able to produce full brightness. I am not a "know it all", but I do know quite a bit about nicad cells.
Jerry
 
I would suggest both of you are correct.

Not all Nicad could be able to sustain extreme high current. Unlike SubC which is designed for high current due to its popularity on R/C industry.

Most C and D cell was designed to replace regular alkalines. While it perform better on *above average high current* device than alkalines, it might not be able to perform like subC unless the batteries is specify as high temp (high discharge).

I have found that Sanyo high temp nicad (4000ma) D cell perform better than Sanyo Extra (5000ma) under 3A draw.

For C cell, you could try Sanyo high temp Nicad (2400ma) and I've tried it under 2A and it perform pretty well. Please don't confuse with Sanyo Nicad Extra 2400ma, I haven't tried that.

UKE C4 uses 4 x 2400ma Nicad for its 9.6W bulb and D4 uses 4 x 4400ma Nicad for its 18W bulb. I suspect the 4400ma nicad is Panasonic high temp Nicad.

Alan Chan
 
stringJ; what you say is possible, however I have about a dozen of them, from Golden Power and Radio Shack. There are two generations of the Radio Shack ones, the oldest marked '2AH', and the most recent '2300 mAh'. The Golden Power ones are 1800 mAh.

They all behave normally, are regularly deep cycled.

I suppose they all COULD be faulty.

In any case, I have been unable to find any hi cap C cells which will work satisfactorily with a 1.7 A lamp. Which is what I was trying to get across.

Walt
 
I would suggest both of you are correct.

Not all nicad could sustain very high current. Most SubC were designed for *extreme high current* draw due to its popularity on R/C (and flashlight lately).

However, most C and D Nicad were designed to replace regular alkaline for electronic devices, it might not be able to sustain extreme high current albeit it still performs better than regular alkaline in moderate high current usage.

I have found that the 4000ma Sanyo high temp Nicad perform better than 5000ma Sanyo Extra under high current draw.

Alan Chan
 
Alan,
You are correct. We are both "right". I missed the part about only looking at C and D cell nicads. They are indead meant for lower current applications whereas Sub-C cells are high current friendly.

Walt,
We are both talking about nicads, just different cell construction types meant for different applications.

Jerry
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alan:

For C cell, you could try Sanyo high temp Nicad (2400ma)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, it should be Sanyo high temp Nicad (3000ma), part # N-3000CR

Alan Chan
 
Thanks, Alan; I had actually come to much the same conclusion, as Jerry seemed much more knowledgeable than me about electronics. Therefore, I came to feel that something must be sub standard about the C cells.

This was a project to fix up a Mag Light for my then 5 year old son. He, thankfully, is now big enough to handle a D cell mag Light.

IIRC, the C high cap batteries cost about $6 or so each. How much are the Sanyo high temp NiCds, anyway (just out of curiosity), Alan?

Thanks for the help, Walt
 
Walt,

I have seen $5.95 on the net. Please check http://www.mrnicd-ehyostco.com/newpage3.htm. You might get lower price if searching around.

I got mine around the same price in Hong Kong. The only difference is that I could simply walk in a shop to get it and you might need to get it over the net at this price level + shipping.

While I could get very low price in batteries (for instance, I got my 123A at $1.28 for Panasonic, $2 for Energizer or $2.56 for Duracell Ultra), I have paid premium for flash light.

Alan Chan
 
Next question is: how many sub-c cells do the B-90 surefire stick use, and at what mah are they? And would it be wise to go to a battery store and have them slap together a "upgrade"(higher mah, volt)stick for me to use in the surefire 8ax?
 
Alan; thanks. Sounds like you have the best prices on batteries in the universe!! Walt
 
eynlai,
The B90 pack is made up of three Sub-C nicads. I can't say exactly what the rating is of them although I can check. My guess would be 1400 mAh due to that being the cell of choice at the time I purchased my 9N flashlight. The B90 battery pack is slightly longer than three individual Sub-C cells and is topped by the male connector part of a 9-volt battery. I made a pack for myself, but it doesn't look very good as soldering is not my forte.
Jerry
 
on the subject of nicd and demanding flashlight apps.
i use a 6d maglite with the 5ah d nicad cells
i listed on the forsale.
the trick is to use the 5 cell magnumstar bulb instead o a 6 cell bulb.makes up for the lower voltage of nicd.works very well till i find a distributor of carly stuff
smile.gif
 
note that a.h ratings on batteries are for a 20 hour rate.since many of you are discharging near a i/c rate you are not going to get the full rated capacity.eg the 1.7a bulb on 1.8 ah c cells.
 
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