Close call I think

[SteveoMiami]

I had 2 sanyo reds charging for the first time after pulling them from a laptop pack. I knocked the Pila IBC charger off the table and one battery flew across the floor. The other one lodged caddy corner in the charger when I picked it up it was crazy hot, I put it in a bowl with some water and it was bubbling from the + and the water was getting warm pretty fast. I dont know if the battery made contact caddy corner and this caused a short or what but this is my first scare. time to get a metal bucket and some sand.

 

[TooManyGizmos]

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Reply in error - deleted

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[AnAppleSnail]

Sand - outside - is preferable for when you suspect a lithium fire is about to start. Suspect one after physical damage or thermal/electrical abuse. That is, take them outside away from things you don't want burned or gassed.

 

[BenChiew]

Perhaps you should buy yourself some new protected cells. Harvesting batteries from laptops should be for the experts that really know what they are doing.

 

[bjt3833]

Perhaps you should buy yourself some new protected cells. Harvesting batteries from laptops should be for the experts that really know what they are doing.

This.

 

[SteveoMiami]

I have read plenty of threads here that said to put the battery in salt water to slowly discharge it. Putting a battery in water does not cause a short great enough to cause an issue does it? I agree that sand, outside is the best idea. I'm normally really carefull because I know and understand the dangers, I think, like others I got too comfortable but this was a good wake up call. From now on charging will occur inside a military ammo box in case I have another issue then i can just dump the battery in and close the top. Benchiew, I have several protected cells. I have AW and Orbotronics cells, I also have several AW IMRcells. I also make my own protected cells from panasonic cells and they are of high enough quality to sell. I have over 100 harvested Panasonic cells from brand new, still sealed in plastic IBM thinkpad, panasonic 9 cell battery packs. The battery that got hot happened to be from a pack I bought cheap on ebay looking for some NCRs for myself from a used Fujitzu pack. So I do know what I am doing and the battery showed around 3 volts before I started charging it so I dont really know what happened with it, maybe it was from the fall because I know the battery wasnt hot because i keep a pretty close eye on them while charging touching them to monitor the temperature. I just posted this for awareness and to remind people of the dangers involved with these types of batteries. I agree that the average person with no knowlege or improper tools should not be opening up battery packs. I always pop the top off, carefully cut and remove all of the wires before removing the batteries from the packs.

 

[SteveoMiami]

I probally have more technical electronic experience than the majority of people my age here on this forum. During my first enlistment in the Army I worked at an Electronic Maintenance Shop after going though and electronic training school. Working there I use to troubleshoot, down to the component, replace parts or components and test the equipment. A lot of this was on a 14 million dollar satellite system, modems, modulators, transmitters, power supplies, encryption devices, power converters, etc. So while I may not be one of the Experts here, I'm pretty sure that I am qualified to remove a piece of plastic from a few batteries, cut a couple wires, and test batteries with a multimeter.

 

[Serenity]

Thanks for posting your experience. I have a couple of Sanyo red cells harvested from a laptop battery pack that I'm planning to charge once I can remove the welds properly. So I wonder what caused the cell to heat up so much too. Do you think the bubbles were from venting, or was it from electrolysis? But keeping some sand and a strong container around while charging sounds like a good idea.

And I agree that a good knowledge of electronics, knowing the risks of Li-ion batteries, and taking the necessary precautions to prevent accidents should be enough to salvage batteries from a battery pack. If not, I don't see how anyone could become an expert in the first place.

 

[lightcycle1]

well for all your tech experience im amazed that you threw an overheated cell in a near exploding state into a pan of water. not too smart. sorry but thats the way it is.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

 

[SteveoMiami]

Honestly thats not what I really wanted to do with it but I like I said I have read more than 1 thread on here suggesting to put a suspected bad cell in salt water to discharge it. At the moment I put it in the water i thought it was too hot and I'd dischage it and dispose of it. Then I saw the bubbles so i took the thing outside and threw it out in the sand. I'm in Afghanistan right now and was in my tiny little room and I didnt have the proper means(sand box in metal can) to dispose of it. I have about 20 cells that I have charged and wont keep a charge so I need to find a place to take them, maybe the Haz Waste Point. Is there a safe way to discharge them all of the way down since the water way is no good? We have battery drop off points here but I wouldnt ever put a LiIon in there and I wont throw them away because they end up used against us off post.

 

[SteveoMiami]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7abq34mckg

this guy is crazy....

 

[SilverFox]

Hello SteveoMiami,

Let's start by reviewing what is needed for a fire.

Heat
Fuel
Oxygen

Chemical fires may result from a reaction and may not need oxygen, but that is the basics.

Your bucket of water will remove heat and without heat there is no fire.

Lithium metal is very reactive with water, but that does not apply to lithium ions. A lithium ion cell doesn't have lithium metal in it unless it has been abused and trickle charged for an extended period of time. Even then the amount plated out is minimal compared to a primary lithium battery.

The bubbles you saw coming out of the cell were caused by the pressure being released inside the cell. The excess pressure inside the cell was caused by the shorted condition that caused a rapid heat build up.

The question is what caused the short? Sometimes a Li-Ion cell can short due to physical damage so the drop may have caused some physical deflection of the case that caused the separator inside the cell to be breached and short out. This type of damage usually shows up as a dent in the can of the cell. The other cause is that the + end and - end of the cell got connected. I am not sure the charger can do this but I don't know for sure.

As far as safety goes I don't have any issue with tossing a Li-Ion cell into a bucket of water to remove the heat from the cell. I wouldn't do this with a lithium primary cell because of the reaction of lithium with water. In this case the bucket of sand would contain the "rapid vent with flame" incident and not allow the flames to spread. Just keep in mind that sand won't do much to reduce the temperature of the cell and is mostly used to contain the damage.

While it is important to contain flying parts and prevent flame spread it is also very important to avoid all fumes. If something like this happens again you need to drop the cell in the bucket of water and leave the area with the intent of ventilating it as quickly as possible. If there are no fumes you may be able to grab the bucket and move it outside, but this part of your safety plan needs to be worked out ahead of time.

Keep in mind that stored energy has dangers associated with it. Treat it with respect and take the time to ask a few What If questions to be somewhat prepared for times when things go wrong.

Tom

 

[SemiMan]

well for all your tech experience im amazed that you threw an overheated cell in a near exploding state into a pan of water. not too smart. sorry but thats the way it is.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

That would be true of a primary Lithium, but lithium ion batteries do not have have free elemental lithium (normally) and hence will not have lithium/water reactions. If the battery was approaching thermal runaway from a short, the very high heat transfer of water would likely be the most effective thing for dissipating the heat and dissipating the energy.

Given the poster said the battery was hot, and the water got quite hot itself, that leads me to believe the failure mechanism was a short. The short will only become catastrophic if you get thermal runaway ... which is what would happen if you don't dissipate the thermal energy of the short, which the water appears to have effectively done.


Semiman

 

[moshow9]

How should the water that contains the li-ion cell, in this example, be disposed of?

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Moshow9,

The last time this happened to me (many years ago) I just poured it on the patio and let it evaporate.

Tom

 

[moshow9]

Thank you for the response Tom. While I hope the situation never arises, it's good to know what to do and cleanup does not require any special steps, aside from what has been already mentioned.

Regards,
Mike