Coffee: drip vs percolate vs...

[The Mad Scotsman]

Sorry if I came off sounding like a pompous ***. I do that on the internets sometimes. It's an illness.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether tea is a healthier, more sophisticated drink with a richer history and far more subtlety of flavour than even wine, but I think we can do that and remain friendly. 😛

I drink plenty of coffee but I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think I've ever had a truly great cup of coffee. I can make a world class cup of tea (anyone can) with a kettle, some good water, a thermometer, a timer and some premium tea but somewhere along the line I've gotten the impression that good coffee, never mind great coffee, requires all sorts of expensive roasters, grinders, and coffeemakers. The reason I got into quality tea, apart from being British, is that the bar to entry is so low.

If I'm ever in your part of the world I'd love to have coffee with you.

You may already be aware of this but herbal tea is not actually tea. It's tasty and quite often good for you but it is not tea. All tea varieties, no matter how different they all look when dried, come from the same plant; Camellia sinensus. Also unlike black, green , Pu-erh, white etc. Pekoe is not a type of tea, it is a grade of black tea which refers to the size of the dried leaf. Pekoe consists of shorter; less fine leaves than Orange Pekoe. Some other grades include Broken Orange Pekoe (BOP), Flowery Orange Pekoe (FOP), Golden Flowery Orange Pekoe (GFOP), Tippy Golden Flowery Orange Pekoe (TGFOP) and Finest Tippy Golden Flowery Orange Pekoe (FTGFOP which some people jokingly say stands for Far To Good For Ordinary People). For some reason some blenders have decided to use the term Orange Pekoe to sell a certain distinctive flavour of tea but many different tasting teas can be graded as Orange Pekoe, or Broken Orange Pekoe for that matter.

Because English Breakfast is intended to accompany fatty fried foods, such as bacon and eggs, and strong flavours, such as smoked fish, English Breakfast blends usually contain Indian (usually Assam), Ceylon, and African teas.The Irish have traditionally always liked their tea strong and dark, and these blends consist of rich malty Assams, sometimes with African and Indonesian leaf added. Irish Breakfast tends to have more emphasis on the Assam to give a stronger, maltier taste. These are blended teas of a lower grade leaf and while personally I love both of them, some people turn there nose up at them in favour of higher grade unblended teas made up of unbroken leafs.

I could give you the names of some good online retailers but I don't want you to think I'm shilling for anyone because I'm not, I just have my favourites. Adagio has a trendy little website with nice pictures of the teas they sell, a user forum and lot's of customer reviews. Upton Tea Imports has a website that looks like something circa 1995 but they have an insane selection of all types of teas but they specialize in the more expensive Darjeelings. Both of these sites have sections that will educate you about tea.

 

[kwkarth]

Sorry if I came off sounding like a pompous ***. I do that on the internets sometimes. It's an illness.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether tea is a healthier, more sophisticated drink with a richer history and far more subtlety of flavour than even wine, but I think we can do that and remain friendly. 😛

I drink plenty of coffee but I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think I've ever had a truly great cup of coffee. I can make a world class cup of tea (anyone can) with a kettle, some good water, a thermometer, a timer and some premium tea but somewhere along the line I've gotten the impression that good coffee, never mind great coffee, requires all sorts of expensive roasters, grinders, and coffeemakers. The reason I got into quality tea, apart from being British, is that the bar to entry is so low.

If I'm ever in your part of the world I'd love to have coffee with you.

You may already be aware of this but herbal tea is not actually tea. It's tasty and quite often good for you but it is not tea. All tea varieties, no matter how different they all look when dried, come from the same plant; Camellia sinensus. Also unlike black, green , Pu-erh, white etc. Pekoe is not a type of tea, it is a grade of black tea which refers to the size of the dried leaf. Pekoe consists of shorter; less fine leaves than Orange Pekoe. Some other grades include Broken Orange Pekoe (BOP), Flowery Orange Pekoe (FOP), Golden Flowery Orange Pekoe (GFOP), Tippy Golden Flowery Orange Pekoe (TGFOP) and Finest Tippy Golden Flowery Orange Pekoe (FTGFOP which some people jokingly say stands for Far To Good For Ordinary People). For some reason some blenders have decided to use the term Orange Pekoe to sell a certain distinctive flavour of tea but many different tasting teas can be graded as Orange Pekoe, or Broken Orange Pekoe for that matter.

Because English Breakfast is intended to accompany fatty fried foods, such as bacon and eggs, and strong flavours, such as smoked fish, English Breakfast blends usually contain Indian (usually Assam), Ceylon, and African teas.The Irish have traditionally always liked their tea strong and dark, and these blends consist of rich malty Assams, sometimes with African and Indonesian leaf added. Irish Breakfast tends to have more emphasis on the Assam to give a stronger, maltier taste. These are blended teas of a lower grade leaf and while personally I love both of them, some people turn there nose up at them in favour of higher grade unblended teas made up of unbroken leafs.

I could give you the names of some good online retailers but I don't want you to think I'm shilling for anyone because I'm not, I just have my favourites. Adagio has a trendy little website with nice pictures of the teas they sell, a user forum and lot's of customer reviews. Upton Tea Imports has a website that looks like something circa 1995 but they have an insane selection of all types of teas but they specialize in the more expensive Darjeelings. Both of these sites have sections that will educate you about tea.

Wow! This is great and I've learned a lot tonight. Thank you!

Thanks! If I can reciprocate with coffee info, please let me know. You are correct in realizing that proper processing from green coffee bean to finished cup need not be overly expensive, and the varietal nature of the bean is more distinct typically with lighter roasts which reveal more subtle flavor profiles. Year to year, crop to crop, farm to farm, the beans often differ from year to year, as does any agricultural product.

You're just a "little" North of us on the left coast, so any time you're wanting to go South for a winter break, let us know and we'll put on the pot for you!!

 

[The Mad Scotsman]

Yeah, I might pick your brain for info on how to make good coffee, I gotta go for now but I'll be back with questions.

I really only used the cheeseburger analogy because I'm convinced that tea offers more health benefits but maybe that ignores the fact that coffee can be a complex brew with many different subtle flavours.

Can you order good beans online? I think I might try some high quality beans and one of those french mill thingies and see how my interest goes from there. I guess that a french press and a grinder wont break the bank.

 

[kwkarth]

Yeah, I might pick your brain for info on how to make good coffee, I gotta go for now but I'll be back with questions.

I really only used the cheeseburger analogy because I'm convinced that tea offers more health benefits but maybe that ignores the fact that coffee can be a complex brew with many different subtle flavours.

Can you order good beans online? I think I might try some high quality beans and one of those french mill thingies and see how my interest goes from there. I guess that a french press and a grinder wont break the bank.

Yes, you can, but the most significant key to obtaining the best quality bean of any given variety mandates that it be freshly roasted. Regardless of how it's stored, a freshly roasted is "good" for two weeks at best, after that you may as well throw them away. That's how much difference there is between freshly roasted beans and old, stale, or rancid beans. I roast my own because it is really quite easy and does not have to be done expensively.

The same place where I buy most of my green beans (which keep at home in their green state for 2-3 years without significant degradation) also sells roasted coffee. I would recommend that you try them. They will not roast until after they receive your order and them ship them promptly to you.

http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.roasted.php

There may be others in this thread who regularly buy roasted beans from the web who could suggest a more economical source. Just be sure you know the exact roast date, and that you have it in your hands no longer than three days after roasting max.

Lastly, the method by which you brew your coffee is at least as important in determining the quality of the final product, so we should discuss that in more detail as well.

Cheers!

 

[js]

Yes, you can, but the most significant key to obtaining the best quality bean of any given variety mandates that it be freshly roasted. Regardless of how it's stored, a freshly roasted is "good" for two weeks at best, after that you may as well throw them away. That's how much difference there is between freshly roasted beans and old, stale, or rancid beans. I roast my own because it is really quite easy and does not have to be done expensively.

The same place where I buy most of my green beans (which keep at home in their green state for 2-3 years without significant degradation) also sells roasted coffee. I would recommend that you try them. They will not roast until after they receive your order and them ship them promptly to you.

http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.roasted.php

There may be others in this thread who regularly buy roasted beans from the web who could suggest a more economical source. Just be sure you know the exact roast date, and that you have it in your hands no longer than three days after roasting max.

Lastly, the method by which you brew your coffee is at least as important in determining the quality of the final product, so we should discuss that in more detail as well.

Cheers!

Exactly!

Few people have really experienced FRESH coffee. And the reason is that stale coffee is still really, really good. But relative to freshly roasted and ground and properly brewed coffee? Might as well throw it away, as kwkarth says. The difference is greater even than between properly brewed high quality tea vs. a low quality bag tea made with luke-warm water and steeped for far too long.

I used to be way, way, waaay into tea. It was like a religious ritual for me for a number years of my life. I had a tea pot and fine loose leaf teas. Grace Rare Tea Formosa Oolong was my favorite. And I had a kettle for boiling water and I took great care in steeping time. Etc. All of it.

And, OMG, tea is indeed divine. Tea is amazing. I love tea. But, the gods punished me for drinking too much of it too often by giving me some sort of adverse reaction to it after a while. Maybe it was tannin overdose, maybe it was something else. I don't know. But instead of the wonderful feeling I used to get from drinking tea, I started feeling worse, not better, after drinking it.

Enter coffee.

I used to think that coffee drinkers had it easy because they could get a pretty darned good cup of coffee out at various stores, whereas it was nearly impossible to find a place that served a good cup of tea. And, I do indeed quite enjoy coffee at various places out and about. But what I was missing was that truly good coffee required freshly roasted beans, and few cafes offered that.

Then, at some point, my local grocery store installed a roasting machine and many bins of green coffee beans, and I thought, wow, that's cool! I think I'll try a half pound of something.

And I did.

And OH, MY, GOD! What a difference! Just the SMELL emanating from that bag of freshly roasted beans was out of this world. Despite it being evening, the smell was so good, I just had to make up a pot of coffee right then and there. And, OH MY GOD! I had never had coffee even half that good! It was amazing!

Since then, I've been hooked on fresh roasted, and took up home roasting as well as home grinding and brewing.

Finally, just a factoid to consider: no other food stuff has anywhere near the number flavor components as coffee. It is the MOST complex (by number of distinct elements) of anything we have. It even dwarfs vanilla, which is also quite complex. It stands alone in the "high complexity" category. Not only is it distinctive and immediately appealing to many, but it is ALSO subtle and complex and unfolds itself over many many cups, over a lifetime, and is appealing to connoisseurs and professional foodies even more than to coffee "newbies".

Don't get me wrong. Tea is lovely lovely lovely. And it is subtle and wonderful and amazing. But, to say that coffee is to tea as a cheeseburger is to sirloin is simply untenable, even . . . untrue. 🙂

 

[kwkarth]

Exactly!

Few people have really experienced FRESH coffee. And the reason is that stale coffee is still really, really good. But relative to freshly roasted and ground and properly brewed coffee? Might as well throw it away, as kwkarth says. The difference is greater even than between properly brewed high quality tea vs. a low quality bag tea made with luke-warm water and steeped for far too long.

I used to be way, way, waaay into tea. It was like a religious ritual for me for a number years of my life. I had a tea pot and fine loose leaf teas. Grace Rare Tea Formosa Oolong was my favorite. And I had a kettle for boiling water and I took great care in steeping time. Etc. All of it.

And, OMG, tea is indeed divine. Tea is amazing. I love tea. But, the gods punished me for drinking too much of it too often by giving me some sort of adverse reaction to it after a while. Maybe it was tannin overdose, maybe it was something else. I don't know. But instead of the wonderful feeling I used to get from drinking tea, I started feeling worse, not better, after drinking it.

Enter coffee.

I used to think that coffee drinkers had it easy because they could get a pretty darned good cup of coffee out at various stores, whereas it was nearly impossible to find a place that served a good cup of tea. And, I do indeed quite enjoy coffee at various places out and about. But what I was missing was that truly good coffee required freshly roasted beans, and few cafes offered that.

Then, at some point, my local grocery store installed a roasting machine and many bins of green coffee beans, and I thought, wow, that's cool! I think I'll try a half pound of something.

And I did.

And OH, MY, GOD! What a difference! Just the SMELL emanating from that bag of freshly roasted beans was out of this world. Despite it being evening, the smell was so good, I just had to make up a pot of coffee right then and there. And, OH MY GOD! I had never had coffee even half that good! It was amazing!

Since then, I've been hooked on fresh roasted, and took up home roasting as well as home grinding and brewing.

Finally, just a factoid to consider: no other food stuff has anywhere near the number flavor components as coffee. It is the MOST complex (by number of distinct elements) of anything we have. It even dwarfs vanilla, which is also quite complex. It stands alone in the "high complexity" category. Not only is it distinctive and immediately appealing to many, but it is ALSO subtle and complex and unfolds itself over many many cups, over a lifetime, and is appealing to connoisseurs and professional foodies even more than to coffee "newbies".

Don't get me wrong. Tea is lovely lovely lovely. And it is subtle and wonderful and amazing. But, to say that coffee is to tea as a cheeseburger is to sirloin is simply untenable, even . . . untrue. 🙂

Well said! I might also add that more and more studies are popping up all the time regarding newly found health benefits of moderate coffee consumption.

 

[js]

I always like hearing about how coffee might possibly be GOOD for you, taken in moderation!

However, I would drink the stuff even if it was shown to be decidely (but mildly) BAD for you. It's just too good. I just couldn't give it up.

I mean, I COULD give it up. And back years ago when I was Catholic, I actually DID give it up every Lent. And didn't that suck. Awful. I didn't mind too much the no sweets, and reduced food consumption. But no coffee? Good grief! That was another story!

Anyway, coffee is also extremely useful for those people who need to work the graveyard shift. And, yes, studies have supported this assertion. But, I can tell you from long experience that coffee is a GODSEND for people working from midnight to 8AM. It's even more useful, for me, in switching my schedule around, either to graveyard shifts, or back. When I want to switch to the graveyard schedule, I just don't have coffee that morning. It's not super fun, but I sleep in anyway, and the first day (for me) without coffee isn't terrible. But then, at 11PM, I drink a full pot of the stuff and it makes working overnight so so much easier. It's the difference between 8 hours of sheer hell and 8 hours of mild discomfort.

So, I wouldn't give the stuff up, even if it were shown to not be good for me.

It's good for the soul is how I see it. :devil:

 

[Fulgeo]

It's good for the soul is how I see it. :devil:

Soul Juice! :thumbsup:

 

[kwkarth]

I would question the reliability of something that has multiple color LED's and thermal sensor display for only $60. This review on Amazon says it keeps tasting like plastic after multiple boils. I'm hesitant to consider something that has the heated water in proximity to electronics. I think Breville got it right putting the electronics/display in an isolated, water free base, and kept the caraffe as a separate stainless pitcher.

Happy to report that after a couple of days of use, there is no more plastic odor from the electric pot.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Can you order good beans online? I think I might try some high quality beans and one of those french mill thingies and see how my interest goes from there. I guess that a french press and a grinder wont break the bank.

I think using Sweet Marias is one of the best bets because of their rigorous taste testing of selective high quality lots that change from year to year before purchasing, and rapid stock turnover. Some years they won't recommend any coffee from Jamaican Blue Mountain, or Hawaiian Kona. I'm most happy with Central American coffees, or some South American.

However, if you don't want to deal with the roasting and want pretty high quality beans which they also freshly roast on day of shipping, get a bag from Peet's. I used to love this specific Major ****ason blend until I started fresh roasting. It will be optimal for about 7-10 days after receipt, unless there is a longer shipping delay to you in Canada.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Happy to report that after a couple of days of use, there is no more plastic odor from the electric pot.

Excellent news. Of course I would love to try it just from a gimmick standpoint, so let me know how the LED's hold up after a couple months of use.

 

[kwkarth]

Excellent news. Of course I would love to try it just from a gimmick standpoint, so let me know how the LED's hold up after a couple months of use.

Believe it or not, my wife really likes this kettle. Maybe it's the simple user interface, and she thinks the led lights are cool too. She doesn't see what's to be excited about WRT the real time three digit temperature monitor. :huh::laughing: But I like it!! :thumbsup:

 

[kwkarth]

Yeah, I might pick your brain for info on how to make good coffee, I gotta go for now but I'll be back with questions.

I really only used the cheeseburger analogy because I'm convinced that tea offers more health benefits but maybe that ignores the fact that coffee can be a complex brew with many different subtle flavours.

Can you order good beans online? I think I might try some high quality beans and one of those french mill thingies and see how my interest goes from there. I guess that a french press and a grinder wont break the bank.

As far as a grinder that won't break the bank... Depends upon what you're going to grind for. For good espresso, forget it, you're not getting away cheap.

First and foremost, forget ALL blade grinders on the market!! They ALL massacre the coffee beans producing an overheated and inconsistent grind / granule size which will produce a yucky tasting mixture of over and under extracted flavors, regardless of your brew method.

A few years ago, I bought half a dozen similarly priced grinders to test. Generally, the lower the grind speed, the better, because you don't want to "heat" the beans as you grind them, it will alter the flavor of the beans and NOT in a good way. Conical burr designs tend to be the best for low RPM grinding while maintaining very consistent granule size of the grind.

Below are my recommendations;

For regular drip, french press, AeroPress and the like, you can't beat the
Capresso Infinity Burr Grinder for the money.
http://www.capresso.com/coffee-grinders-burr-infinity.shtml

About 90 bux new

or same innards, with more solid casing and well worth the diff in price:
About 100 to 140 bux

or

There goes your economy, but a better grinder

 

[The Mad Scotsman]

kwkarth and Lux Luthor, thanks for the info; I'm taking this all in and I'm actually looking forward to trying some good coffee.

 

[kwkarth]

Excellent news. Of course I would love to try it just from a gimmick standpoint, so let me know how the LED's hold up after a couple months of use.

The lighting for the interior of the pot seems to be a single led with a multi color die inside. The three primaries are represented and then the logic and driver mix the colors to produce the needed color. They don't seem to be overdriven so I wouldn't expect any lifespan problems other than from cheesy construction, the construction seems pretty good, and there's no evidence of poor construction. Nothing is immersed in water, everything is outside of the water containment vessel. Anyway, as you say, time will tell. Nice gimmicks though. Right up a flashaholic's alley. 😀

 

[js]

I have a zassenhaus hand cranked grinder with a conical burr mill that is pretty good. Not as good as a really good grinder, like a Mazzer, and not good enough to do espresso or french press, but more than good enough for drip or vac pot, and a zass can be had on ebay for $40 to $50 last time I checked. Just another option to consider.

For me the next step up would be the Solis. And then the Mazzer Mini.

 

[kwkarth]

I have a zassenhaus hand cranked grinder with a conical burr mill that is pretty good. Not as good as a really good grinder, like a Mazzer, and not good enough to do espresso or french press, but more than good enough for drip or vac pot, and a zass can be had on ebay for $40 to $50 last time I checked. Just another option to consider.

For me the next step up would be the Solis. And then the Mazzer Mini.

Yes, you're right that's a good mill, but where do you put the batteries? 😉

 

[LuxLuthor]

The lighting for the interior of the pot seems to be a single led with a multi color die inside. The three primaries are represented and then the logic and driver mix the colors to produce the needed color. They don't seem to be overdriven so I wouldn't expect any lifespan problems other than from cheesy construction, the construction seems pretty good, and there's no evidence of poor construction. Nothing is immersed in water, everything is outside of the water containment vessel. Anyway, as you say, time will tell. Nice gimmicks though. Right up a flashaholic's alley. 😀

You haven't modded it yet??? :kiss:

 

[kwkarth]

You haven't modded it yet??? :kiss:

Ha! I haven't had it long enough to have decided how to mod it yet! :laughing:

 

[Sub_Umbra]

I love this place. You guys are making me feel normal again...