Comparison tests provoke unexpected reaction to KL-1

brightnorm

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
7,161
I have been a fan of Surefire since I bought my first 6P many years ago. Out of the many Surefire products I've since purchased only one had previously disappointed me: the K2-T Turbohead. Regretably, I may now have to add the KL-1 to that short list. I say "may" because that is subject to further testing (described below) possibly using other samples.

INITIAL COMMENTS

The unit looked quite handsome and aesthetically well integrated when mounted on the E2e HA. I turned it on (eagerly, I must admit) and was immediately disappointed, a reaction I decided to confirm by comparing the unit to the other Luxeon lights in my small collection: ARC SLS kit (2AA [lithiums], 1AA, 123) , another SLS kit, AA Minimag with Inretech drop-in, CMG Reactor. I was especially interested in how the KL-1 And SLS compared to each other. I added one non-Luxeon light to the test: the Tek 1400 which is my favorite hiking LED and the standard against which I measure other LED lights because of its extremely wide, even field of coverage, its excellent if not overwhelming brightness, its long, slow-decaying (non-regulated) burn time, and its surprisingly "natural-white" color, along with being the smallest and lightest 3C LED light currently available as well as having the best wrist lanyard in the business. I much prefer it to the LW3000 or 4000, though of course the 4000 burns forever.

. My (necessarily) indoor procedure was direct and unsophisticated. I put fresh batteries post-dated 2011 in all the lights; Surefire 123's and Energizer lithium AA's. Then I tested in 6 separate steps with my non-Flashaholic girlfriend as an observer

TESTING PROCEDURE:

1) Instead of shining them initially at a white surface to test brightness as I might do with incandescent lights, I used the test (against the ceiling) primarily to compare beam color.

2) Then I aimed them down the long expanse of my nearly 30' living room to get a general impression of beam spread, reach and intensity as well as color

3) From a distance of approximately 26' I aimed the beams at specific points such as: books on shelves, furniture, pictures on the wall, along the expanse of dark beige carpet for beam clarity and walking potential.

4) Intensity tests on two white surfaces: first, against the 10' ceiling with lights held at approximately chest height. This also gave a sense of all-over light saturation due to reflection from ceiling and walls. Then against the 4.5' width of a white window shade from a distance of about 26'.

5) Repeated entire test

6) Compared notes (which we had not yet done) with my girlfriend

Observations and reactions, integrated results from the above tests:

KL-1 & SLS: As I mentioned, my primary goal was to compare the SF KL-1 with the ARC SLS and I'll start with our reactions to those lights since they were in an entirely other "league" from the other lights. I have two SLS kits and the two Luxeons are quite different from each other. The first one I received was slightly bluish and pleasingly bright with a wide beam angle. I was quite pleased with it. The second one was remarkably bright with a very subtle violet tint, so that the light appeared surprisingly white and pristine. It also had a very widely dispersed beam, and maintained much of its intensity over most of that angle. We were both highly impressed by this light. Perhaps this was an aberrant "supernova" Luxeon, because after only 15 minutes in the 123 version and a half hour in the 2AA (lithium) version the light was almost too hot to hold. I solved this (123 version) by cutting off the rubber webbing from my LX Legend and fitting it to the SLS with the help of some black plastic tape. I was going to return this kit, assuming the Luxeon was faulty, but I found it so appealing that I have decided to keep it. It is this Luxeon that is used in the following comparisons.

BRIGHTNESS AND BEAM DISPERSION: The hotspot diameter of the KL-1 was at least 50% smaller than the SLS and appeared brighter, and the overall beam diameter was significantly smaller than that of the SLS. There was the sense of a well lit but relatively narrow path surrounded by darkness. The SLS, in addition to having a wider but somewhat less intense hotspot, had a wide and surprisingly bright general field of illumination so that the effect, (perhaps not measurable by instruments) was actually of greater brightness than the KL-1. However, the KL-1 was somewhat better for "spotting" objects, acting slightly more like a conventional incandescent flashlight than the SLS.

BEAM COLOR : This is what caused my initial negative reaction to the KL-1. Our first impression was "unpleasantly vivid bluish-purple beam". This caused some color perception inaccuracy compared to sunlight, mixed incandescent and "natural" fluorescent light, and to the preferred SLS.

RUNTIME : The SLS and KL-1 were not tested for runtime since accurate charts have been already posted.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

MINIMAG-INRETECH, CMG REACTOR, TEK 1400:

The Mag/Inretech dropin and the CMG reactor have been amply reviewed, measured and charted, and having recently performed my own runtime test on them (at 39 hours on lithiums they were perhaps slightly dimmer than a fresh ARC AAALe) it is clear that for long term emergency or outdoor use direct driven Luxeons are probably unbeatable. I believe the MAG/Inretech pretty much obsoletes the MAG/Opalec for those purposes since it starts brighter and remains brighter up to and well past the 8.5 hour mark when, according to Brock's charts, the MAG/Opalec starts to drop out of regulation. However, the Opalec is still a marvelous little unit, and for predictably constant moderately bright light around the house it remains an excellent choice.

TEK 1400 If this relatively venerable light were perhaps 50% brighter and retained its excellent runtime it would still be my preferred outdoor hiking light, and for long treks it still is (subject to outdoor tests of SLS and KL-1). However, for outdoor use of about 4.5 hours or less (subject to outdoor tests), my present favorite is now the particular SLS that I tested for this report: (FIRST RUN #1696). However, the 1400 still achieves one of the broadest fields of illumination of any LED light I have used. (Note that its big brother, the Tek 1900 does not appear to be 30% brighter, as the numbers might suggest, and has a noticeably reduced runtime).

Other Lights I haven't used some of the wonderful creations of our modders primarily because of limited runtime, which is a major issue for me. The finest very small, very bright lights, whether incandescent or LED, and produced commercially or by our colleagues have often reminded me of a brilliantly designed, beautifully executed sports car that goes from 0-60 in 2.5 seconds and then needs a refill. I love these lights as much as anyone, but I can't ignore their limitations. I have found the intense bluish color of some other lights quite unpleasant. The Streamlight 4AA LED and the Lightwave 3000 and 4000 fit this category. These are excellent lights and my personal reaction is just that, a personal, ideosyncratic reaction.

Limitations of my testing procedure My greatest frustration in performing these tests was in not being able to test outdoors. In my city, testing LED's in a sufficiently dark area could result in my permanent absence from these forums. It was much easier when I tested bright incandescents using "vertical throw tests" up the sides of tall buildings from a variety of distances and then measuring horizontal distance and height to calculate the hypotenuse, describing beam diameter and intensity. I am concerned that my test conclusions for the KL-1 and SLS may not hold true for outdoors. Many more reports should be coming in soon, and we shall see. One last point. Most tests are limited because they only judge one sample of each test product. This is especially problematic when dealing with the variability of Luxeons, whether "hand-picked" or otherwise. I believe it was Mr. Bulk who addressed this issue by averaging mutiple test results of KL-1's, 2's and 3's.

Summary

The ARC SLS2AA (lithiums) and Surefire E2e + KL-1 both proved to be very bright, moderately long burning regulated lights, with the KL-1 being fully regulated. The KL-1's beam was somewhat narrow and "unpleasantly vivid bluish-purple" while the beam of the ARC SLS was broader with a "very subtle violet tint and "appeared surprisingly white and pristine." It is now my preferred all-purpose outdoor Luxeon for durations of 4.5 hrs or less.

Both lights would be excellent in a demanding outdoor hike of moderate duration (subject to outdoor testing).

The Tek 1400, with its exceptionally broad and subtly blueish-white beam was an ideal long-burning hiking light, but could have benefited from a somewhat brighter beam.

The CMG Reactor and INRETECH MAG AA dropin were moderately bright, remarkably long burning lights appropriate for emergency or long term outdoor situations. I don't know whether these units are water resistant/proof.

Personal note: I am now carrying, just for the sake of experiment, the SLS 123 plus a spare 123 in a tiny Ripoffs holster that I modified slightly. It is perhaps 30% shorter than the E2 holster. That should give me about 5 hours of bright light.

Brightnorm
 
WOW! Anyone who would sit down
and write this much about a flashlight,
ain't gettin' out of the house enough...

Great info!

-Rebus
 
Originally posted by Rebus:
WOW! Anyone who would sit down
and write this much about a flashlight,
ain't gettin' out of the house enough...

Great info!

-Rebus
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually I was in all day today because of a minor accident, so it seemed like a good time to set this all down.

Thanks,
Brightnorm
 
brightnorm-

Often, folks experience something like this: All the background checks, technical acquisition, and logistics are done thoroughly. The expected outcome is good or fair or maybe excellent. Then the thing happens. It registers less than the least that was expected. This can be applied to service, situations, products or life in general.

Yes, what was just stated must sound authoritarian and it is. But it is only authoritarian with respect to one person's experience...a newbie...me.

The early exit polls posted here indicated a lean toward what you have so accurately described. However, with the respect that is deserved by someone who knows more than I am qualified to begin to calculate; it is, as I'm certain you would agree, your experience.

IMVVHO I would suggest that there is possibly a high level of validity that permeats your logically elegant post. Surely, your incredibly intelligent senior group member counterparts will give their experienced view on this matter. Likely, they will also come up with something that is simple and cheap and turns the KL1 into something fantastic.

For right now I'm thankful that this forum has so many experts like yourself that I can rely on to give meaningful opinions.

Thank you and regards,

Jeff
 
I can't help but wonder why your (Brightnorm & this_is_nascar) Arc LS's work so well. This is frustrating. How do we know what we are buying (meaning these damn luxeons)? It seems it's a crap shoot, no matter how good "they" sort them or who the maker is.
frown.gif


My KL1 has a noticeably wider and brighter beam than my Arc SLS w/2AA lithiums.
 
Hey guys,
No two Luxeons are the same! They can look like twins in some cases or like creatures from two diferent planets. In evaluating the Arc or the KL1 or the CMG, although difficult, you have to look beyond the LED if you want to make any generalizations! Run times are valid comparisons. Materials used, driver circuits, power paks, switches ETC. These are common among the population at large.

When I read somone saying this beam on the Arc or KL1 is wide or narrow or short or fat I think, yeah..... It's a Luxeon. They are all Luxeons and they are all using the same Lumiled optics. Don't attribute the differences to the flashlight manufacturer. Attribute them to the diversity of the LED. For comparisons, you need some type of base or group of variables that can be held as equal. When it comes to these Luxeons, nothing is equal, at best there is similarity. With SureFires KLx series, the range of diversity will likely be less than the population at large as they do have some control over the bin selection and and there is a reduction in the diversity but it isn't abolished.

Are all Luxeons the same brightness? Are they all the same color? How can a flashlight be consistant when it's light source isn't? It will be very difficult to establish a general consensus of comparison between some of these lights as we all can only compare a few.

To re use the oft quoted phrase here; "Your mileage may vary"

With Luxeons, count on it.
 
Originally posted by Icebreak:
brightnorm-

Often, folks experience something like this: All the background checks, technical acquisition, and logistics are done thoroughly. The expected outcome is good or fair or maybe excellent. Then the thing happens. It registers less than the least that was expected. This can be applied to service, situations, products or life in general.

Yes, what was just stated must sound authoritarian and it is. But it is only authoritarian with respect to one person's experience...a newbie...me...................
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jeff,

To begin with, you don't sound remotely authoritarian; you make a lot of sense. As far as those "incredibly intelligent senior counterparts" and "experts like myself" are concerned I must say "Whoa"! It's in no way false modesty to say I am far from an expert, especially in technical matters where I feel quite humble compared the many members here who really do know a great deal. When I was a newbie I felt the same way as you, probably more so because I really was way over my head, but eventually I got comfortable.The main strength I hope to contribute to CPF is an attempt to be objective and organized in my evaluations, and to be as thorough as I can.

I am fairly (but decently) competitive in my professional field where I really am somewhat of an "expert". But one of the great things about CPF is that I (and I'm sure this goes for many members) am able to pretty much leave my ego at the door. I don't have to be better or more knowledgeable or more dominant than anyone. In fact I love being able to learn from so many accomplished people of all ages, backgrounds and professions (OK, so there are a few more engineer types around, but they have turned out to be a surprisingly pleasant and even charming lot
smile.gif
. We have poet/musician LEO's here and brilliant mechanics, inventors, doctors, lawyers, artists, old codgers and precocious young codgers. Everyone is smart in different ways and when all these different ages and life views are focused on a common interest in an atmosphere of civilised and respectful good fellowship and a generous sharing of information---well, there are worse places to be.

(Stumbling off soapbox)

Brightnorm
 
Originally posted by Sean:
I can't help but wonder why your (Brightnorm & this_is_nascar) Arc LS's work so well. This is frustrating. How do we know what we are buying (meaning these damn luxeons)? It seems it's a crap shoot, no matter how good "they" sort them or who the maker is.
frown.gif


My KL1 has a noticeably wider and brighter beam than my Arc SLS w/2AA lithiums.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sean,

It was just dumb luck, with the SLS, but not such great luck with the KL-1. It is frustrating indeed!

Brightnorm
 
Originally posted by McGizmo:
Hey guys, No two Luxeons are the same!................
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don,

I thought your respnse in a prior thread was very eloquent and worth posting here. I hope you don't mind

Brightnorm.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

McGizmo
Flashaholic
Member # 1638

posted 10-11-2002 05:28 PM
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Every Luxeon is different it would seem. Lumiled bins the LED's by color temp, luminous intensity and I believe one other factor, Beam shape? Within these bin distinctions there is still a range of values acceptable for the bin classification. I believe the LEDs are measured by machine and lumenous intensity is a sum of all light, as I understand it. You could have one LED with a very bright centerspot and weak perimiter. Another could have an even fill of light throughout and these two lights could have equal lumenous readings. With a light meter like we use, one of these LED's will have a much brighter center spot reading than the other.

I also suspect that the typical Luxeon has not been evaluated with an optic in terms of consistant beam pattern or other criteria that are important to us.

My suspicion is that SureFire has a good control on bin selection. On the other hand, I doubt that every KL1 or KL3 that is made is physically inspected and "lit up". On the other hand Peter G. has told us many times that every LED they use has been inspected a couple of times. He may not be getting the bin coding of his choice or control but he is likely reviewing the LED's on a much more intimate level.

Let's face it, every Luxeon is unique and has its own charactor and flaws. This charactor and these flaws are brought into focus by the optics used to focus the beam in our applications.

As time goes on, I suspect that the consensus will be that the KL1 is typically bright, tends towards blue or violet white and I suspect that there will be more artifacts in the beams seen with the SureFire offering.

Until the LED itself is made more consistantly with the same charactoristics, there will be unique signitures with all of the LED's and this will be commented on by folks who shine flashlights at perfectly even colored and textured surfaces. Now who would do such a thing?

I think we are assuming and perhaps demanding a level of perfection and uniformity that is not available at this time. If you saw a guy sitting on the beach blowing glass balls for fishing floats from glass he had made himself, you wouldn't expect his floats to be identical in apearance with air bubbles all in the same distribution. Even though the Luxeon is super high tech, at some level, control of the product just isn't there yet, IMHO. At least Lumiled has given us this much, as imperfect as it is. Look at how far behind Nichia is in their offering of a 10X LED. As I recall, we were to see them 6 months ago.

In real use, all of these Luxeon based flashlights are pretty fantastic when you consider all factors. The fact that each has its own fingerprint is kind of cool in a way.

Ramble mode [off]

--------------------
dmcleish.com/CPF-stuff NOTE: I have sub standard spelling, typing and social skills.

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Posts: 990 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May
 
Brightnorm,

What version of ArcLS you have? Original one, 400ma or 500ma. Based on your description, it sounds like a 500ma to me as some other members found that 500ma becomes too hot to hold after turning on for a while. This hot 500ma has very short runtime (45 minutes on 123).

We all know the great variation of Luxeon, ArcLS was even confused as most members didn't mention what version they have while doing comparison. As far as I remember, the very first version of ArcLS was driven on 300ma and that was the version many member did the original runtime test (the one Brock has?). ArcLS was swithced to 350ma later on (the one Roy test?). Then the recent 500ma and 400ma version. This added complication to the variation of Luxeon.

Alan
 
Originally posted by Alan:
Brightnorm,

What version of ArcLS you have? Original one, 400ma or 500ma. Based on your description, it sounds like a 500ma to me as some other members found that 500ma becomes too hot to hold after turning on for a while. This hot 500ma has very short runtime (45 minutes on 123).

We all know the great variation of Luxeon, ArcLS was even confused as most members didn't mention what version they have while doing comparison. As far as I remember, the very first version of ArcLS was driven on 300ma and that was the version many member did the original runtime test (the one Brock has?). ArcLS was swithced to 350ma later on (the one Roy test?). Then the recent 500ma and 400ma version. This added complication to the variation of Luxeon.

Alan
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alan,

No wonder this is so confusing. My first SLS, the one we thought was excellent but not outstanding is "First Run #603". That must be a 300ma or 350ma. The second very bright but hot one is "First run #1696". Perhaps a 400ma or 500ma? A shame about the runtime but it's the old "no free lunch" principle again.

I'm convinced the real breakthrough in this field will be either through increased efficiency emitters (lumens per watt comparisons to other types of emitters is not too encouraging), greater capacity batteries or both. Until this happens we'll continue to run in circles squeezing out an extra lumen here or three minutes there. It's tiring and frustrating.

Brightnorm
 
Brightnorm-

Thanks for your kind words.

BTW, Sunday is 10-13-02. I beleive congratulations are in order.

This place reminds me of the first time I realized that people in my profession would readily give solutionary advice and the only thing they thought I might do in return was to do likewise for those that entered in succession. I suddenly feel like I've graduated from being an intern to being in L1 tech support in this amazing profession of flashotometry.

Do we get paid bi-monthly or every two weeks?

There was something else. Um...if I can remember...Aw yes, there was a concern that comparison tests against the KL1 provoked an unexpected response.

-Jeff
 
My KL1 won't be here 'til Tuesday [rant]dang UPS, shipping charge went up a dollar from my favorite dealer, and the two orders since have taken five days to get here instead of the usual two
mad.gif
[/rant], but I'm already set up to be disappointed because of the coloration I'm seeing in people's beamshots, and hearing about in their comments.
Are y'all keeping these lights that don't meet your expectations, or sending them back?
I don't want a "white" LED that's purple or rose colored.
Mine will be right, bright, and white, or it will be on its way back come Wednesday.
That's an expected response, right?
 
Benchmarks and real world testing are both needed. Even so, it is a matter of luck when getting a Luxeon. I was unlucky with my LEDCorp Pro bulb and the Versalux Nichia bulb that I got for the same flashlight, turns out to be much better. I was lucky with the 2 Reactors I got. I love my 2 Arc LSes and I use Lithium AAs exclusively with those and the Reactor.

Oh, the Reactor is water resistant, but not for prolonged submersion. It should withstand a quick dunking in a puddle or such.

I would never get a light the requires 123s, as the runtime is far too short to be cost effective for me. (cost per hour of runtime).

The Arc LS with Lithium AAs is as short a runtime as I care to go. Both of mine are LS1/rev1.
 
Charles Bradshaw-

I'm not just real good at searching but, I've done the best I can in this forum and I haven't found anything that has indicated a significant affirmation of the LEDCorp Pro bulb. It's possible that it wasn't bad luck; just generally a weak product. If I'm missing something I would appreciate your help.

Thanks
 
Originally posted by Sean:
I can't help but wonder why your (Brightnorm & this_is_nascar) Arc LS's work so well. This is frustrating. How do we know what we are buying (meaning these damn luxeons)? It seems it's a crap shoot, no matter how good "they" sort them or who the maker is.
frown.gif


My KL1 has a noticeably wider and brighter beam than my Arc SLS w/2AA lithiums.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are so correct Sean. This is by biggest complaint about the luxeon star. At first, I thought it was a problem with the ARC manufactoring process. For that, I owe Peter an appology. I currently have ARC 2nds that work better than ARC 1sts. Within those 1sts and 2nds, I have units that work much better than others of the same variety. I'm finding the same to be true with the KL-1. For the average person that's only going to buy 1-ARC LS or 1-KL1, they will never see the range of differences between one light to the next.

For me, with 5-ARC LS and 4-KL1 sitting on the dresser (and having tested each) the results are astonishing.

If I put my best ARC-LS up against my best KL1, bightness is very close. Where the LS wins (for me anyway) is it's wider area of coverage and the whiter light that it puts out.
 
Originally posted by Charles Bradshaw:
...The Arc LS with Lithium AAs is as short a runtime as I care to go. Both of mine are LS1/rev1.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Charles,

What sort of useful runtime/brightness have you been getting with your two LS 2AA lithiums? Is their runtime very different and have you had a chance to use them outdoors for prolonged periods I'm unable to try mine out in this urban setting.

Brightnorm
 
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