Superorb
Enlightened
I think there is a market for hobby chargers, and I think there's a market for charging cradles that easily hookup to a hobby charger. Pretty niche market though.
Consumer Li-Ion "cradle" charger roundup...
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So, when you get a hobby charger, how many batteries can you hook up to a charger and how does it know, WHICH is which so to speak, IF it has to charge each cell individually? Do they have different ports for each battery or what?
pae77
Enlightened
Well I would be interested in such or the magnets leads, probably leaning towards the latter. I'm going to try to make some of my own for single cells and parallel charging pairs of cells, which will take care of my needs at the moment.
For the time being, I'm just using my new hobby charger (Accucell 6) with its stock charging cable, which actually is quite nicely and safely designed with male and female XT60 connectors separating the charger end (with its banana or bullet plugs) from the battery end (which has alligator clips). The XT60 connectors make it very safe because one can permanently leave the banana plugs attached to the charger's output jacks and just very safely connect the XT60 connectors after the battery end has been carefully hooked up to the battery, thus really minimizing any danger of inadvertently shorting the battery and damaging the battery or the charger.
For now, I'm just using some rare earth magnets I had on hand with the alligator clips on the stock cable to attach to the positive and negative ends of one Li-ion cell at a time. It's working great, but down the road I want to be able to charge more than one cell at a time and also have a slightly more robust connection than clipping directly to my loose magnets. It would be great if there was a selection of various premade connection options for us cylindrical cell users available for purchase (especially if it was at fairly reasonable prices
).
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KiwiMark
Flashlight Enthusiast
One lead goes to the negative of battery 1 (held on by a magnet works fine), battery 1 positive can be held on to battery 2 negative with a magnet, positive lead can then be held on to the positive of battery 2 with a magnet. Viola - 2 batteries can be charged at the same time.
Of course you can then get fancy and connect wires from the balance connector to the -ve of 1, +ve of 1/-ve of 2 & +ve of 2 (three wires). This way the charger can ensure that both the cells reach 4.2V instead of one being 4.25 and the other being 4.15.
The same method can be used to charge up to 6 cells at once. If you are charging NiMH or NiCD cells then you don't need balance leads.
All the cells you are charging at one time need to be the same cells at roughly the same state of charge. Otherwise you just charge 1 lot and then when that is finished you charge the next lot.
Magnets are cheap and will stick to both the cells being charged and to the alligator clips on the standard charging lead that comes with the charger.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13518
No, I understand that part but I always thought that EACH battery was charged separately and NOT like here... http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=241266
THIS is what you're doing, right?
Now, on my LaCrosse charger or Maha or something, it has 4 bays and each has a display so each is charged and monitored INDIVIDUALLY, right?
It seems that the hobby charger does not and if not, why is it better than a bay charger? I thought you had to monitor each battery separately as they tend to behave or degrade differently?
I guess not from what you wrote above..
THIS is what you're doing, right?
Now, on my LaCrosse charger or Maha or something, it has 4 bays and each has a display so each is charged and monitored INDIVIDUALLY, right?
It seems that the hobby charger does not and if not, why is it better than a bay charger? I thought you had to monitor each battery separately as they tend to behave or degrade differently?
I guess not from what you wrote above..
Same here, I wish it was a bigger niche. I called a couple of local hobby stores and most did not even know that your could buy protected 18650s or flashlights like Quarks w/18650 tubes existed.
Thanks to forums like this, it is pretty easy to narrow down a few good options. With the risk of Li-ion mostly limited to the charging phase, I am going now for tested, long term proven solutions with lots of positive feedback.
I went ahead and ordered an Accucel 6 with 12v adapter and will just use the magnets. Even with shipping, it will be about the same as the Pila- a pretty amazing value.
KiwiMark
Flashlight Enthusiast
Yep, that's the way I do it.
Yep, those have 4 completely individual channels, which is different to the hobby chargers.
The hobby chargers are a bit different - they don't have several independent channels. However in the case of the Accucell 6:
It has the ability to set a charge rate like 0.1 to 6.0A in 0.1A increments.
It can also charge 1 - 6 Lithium Ion cells.
It can charge 1-15 NiCd or NiMh cells.
It can charge Li-ion cells to 4.2, 4.1 or 3.6 volts to cover several different chemistries.
My LaCrosse charger can charge 4 NiMH or NiCd cells of AAA or AA size, but it can't charge Li-ion cells or Lead acid cells. It can't charge at 6 amps or at 0.1 amps. Buy an 18650 Li-ion or RCR123 cell and the LaCrosse or Maha chargers are not going to be much use. But the hobby charger can charge almost anything.
I have 2 LaCrosse chargers so I can charge plenty of AA or AAA cells at once. But I have a bunch of different Li-ion cells from little AAA sized ones to D sized ones - with capacities from 180mAh to 5000mAh. I also have some NiMH D cells with 10,000mAh capacity - my LaCrosse chargers aren't designed for that size or capacity, but my hobby chargers can charge all 4 at once at 2 or 3 amps and have them charged in a reasonable time.
Cradle chargers - multiple independent channels, super simple to use.
Hobby chargers - extremely versatile, lots of control over settings.
They have different pros & cons - the trick is deciding what suits your needs.
kaptain_zero
Enlightened
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- May 31, 2010
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Only as long as you are willing to charge such cells in series with the issues that raises (cells should be matched and discharged to the same level). The balancing feature cannot be use on NiCD or NiMh cells as far as I know.
There are a few Hobby Chargers that have more than one charging channel so you can charge 3 or 4 NiHh cells individually but they are not exactly cheap.
Regards
Christian
pae77
Enlightened
Good point. Personally, I don't intend to use my Accucell for NiMh/NiCD unless I have to, (although it's nice to have that capability). I intend to continue to use my Maha C9000 for my AA/AAA Eneloops. Too bad there wasn't an equivalent to the C9000 (with adjustable charge rates and fully independent cradles along with an informative display) for Li-ion. That would be what most of us would really like to see.
The moderately priced single channel hobby chargers are the next best thing, imo. Fortunately, single channel is not such a terrible limitation for Li-ion cells, especially since one can either use the included balancing option for charging several cells at a time in series; or, if my understanding is correct, Li-ion cells can self balance if more than one cell at a time is charged in parallel (assuming the cells SOC starts out not too far apart). I can live/work with that.
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TooManyGizmos
Flashlight Enthusiast
~
This sure has gone OFF TOPIC from "self contained" - "cradle" chargers in post 1 .
Maybe "mdocod" the O.P. would prefer we take wired "hobby charger" discussion to other threads ?
"guiri" has a Battery thread that this "hobby" charger discussion can go back into , where it started.
This Thread ... needs to get back to the original posters intent .
~
This sure has gone OFF TOPIC from "self contained" - "cradle" chargers in post 1 .
Maybe "mdocod" the O.P. would prefer we take wired "hobby charger" discussion to other threads ?
"guiri" has a Battery thread that this "hobby" charger discussion can go back into , where it started.
This Thread ... needs to get back to the original posters intent .
~
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Black Rose
Flashlight Enthusiast
Yep, let's get back to the cradle chargers and whether they are worthy or not.
Yes, here it is guys http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=284644
I'll ask my follow up question in there...
I'll ask my follow up question in there...
KiwiMark
Flashlight Enthusiast
Well, I agree and I don't. If this thread is only about cradle chargers and how they compare to each others then hobby chargers don't really belong here. But if this thread is about cradle chargers and includes how they compare to other types of chargers then hobby chargers would be a logical part of the discussion. Some readers of this thread may well be curious about cradle chargers and what alternatives there are to them.
Surely this isn't like a sales thread where it is impolite to suggest a competitors product - there is good information to be had in this thread for flashaholics that want to know more about chargers & charging.
On the subject of cradle chargers:
One thing I WOULD like to see in a cradle charger is a settable charge rate (like on the LaCrosse chargers) and maybe even NiMH & Li-ion settings. Essentially like a hobby charger but 4 independent channels and a spring loaded sliding contact that can accommodate a fairly large range of cell sizes. Now THAT would be a product that I would be interested in.
Alright, so in reply to this..I still don't quite understand. Do you NEED to charge each cell individually or not? From what I read here, apparently not....or? 😕
So, I will leave this in the hands of the OP to say whether we should move it or not...
George
mdocod
Flashaholic
This is going a little off topic here....
I have no problem with anyone pointing out that hobby chargers may offer a good alternative to cradle chargers for many users here in this thread. However, I think TooManyGizmos hit it on the head. Discussion regarding the implementation of those chargers is going to create too much clutter for the context of the thread.
It's not always easy to stay on track, I'm guilty myself. If I may kindly ask that those participating in this thread make an effort to steer back to the original course I would very much appreciate it.
Thank You,
Eric
I have no problem with anyone pointing out that hobby chargers may offer a good alternative to cradle chargers for many users here in this thread. However, I think TooManyGizmos hit it on the head. Discussion regarding the implementation of those chargers is going to create too much clutter for the context of the thread.
It's not always easy to stay on track, I'm guilty myself. If I may kindly ask that those participating in this thread make an effort to steer back to the original course I would very much appreciate it.
Thank You,
Eric
Update on WP6, apparently it does not miss termination- at least technically. It just has some really quirky behavior that 'looks" like a missed termination or hides it via some internal, unspecified safety timer cutoff.
Wanting to see if I could duplicate the issue in prior post of the really long charge cycle that never terminated before I pulled the battery, I took two fully charged 18650 batteries and ran them for 8 minutes in my Quark XPG turbo on max. The discharge was enough to get both the Pila and WP6 to go in to "red " charge mode. The Pila went green in about 20 minutes or so. This was pretty much as expected. The WP6 after two hours was still red. I just gave up and went to bed.
Actually I was also watching a KILL-A-WATT meter as a crude proxy for current on the WP6, so not quite as risky as it might seemed to leave unattended. As a baseline, both the Pila and WP6 show about 2 watts as idle with no batteries. The WP6 had gone to 4/5 watts (its CC phase) for about 15/25 minutes or so and then slowly went to 2 watts for it CV current decay tail for hours. That was when I went to bed assuming it was at most just a few ma of current. At some point of 2+hours for a very shallow charge cycle, it finally went green. Finally. The resting voltage was less that 4.2V, so it apparently did no obvious damage.
It just has what seems to to go to a very elongated exponential CV phase. It must be a really drawn out phase before it hits its current cutoff or some internal timer "pops" implicitly for safety cutoff. I suspect the later. If true, that is a missed termination with no error indication. Worst of the worst.
Either way something is not right.
I don't trust it and have requested again a RMA again from vendor. Just get the Pila for a consumer grade cradle charger. Did someone say 'guilty until proven innocence."
Note: Just by the wattage in the CC phase, the Pila seems to be faster charger over the WP6. The Pila goes to 7 max on the watt for CC, the WP6 most of the time shows 4, sometimes 5 watts. True, crude, but still some indication: For Pila (7-2)= 5 watts of CC. For WP6 (4-2)=2 or even rounding up only 3 vs the 5 for Pila. The battery/charger heat is also a secondary indication of more power being used with the Pila.
Wanting to see if I could duplicate the issue in prior post of the really long charge cycle that never terminated before I pulled the battery, I took two fully charged 18650 batteries and ran them for 8 minutes in my Quark XPG turbo on max. The discharge was enough to get both the Pila and WP6 to go in to "red " charge mode. The Pila went green in about 20 minutes or so. This was pretty much as expected. The WP6 after two hours was still red. I just gave up and went to bed.
Actually I was also watching a KILL-A-WATT meter as a crude proxy for current on the WP6, so not quite as risky as it might seemed to leave unattended. As a baseline, both the Pila and WP6 show about 2 watts as idle with no batteries. The WP6 had gone to 4/5 watts (its CC phase) for about 15/25 minutes or so and then slowly went to 2 watts for it CV current decay tail for hours. That was when I went to bed assuming it was at most just a few ma of current. At some point of 2+hours for a very shallow charge cycle, it finally went green. Finally. The resting voltage was less that 4.2V, so it apparently did no obvious damage.
It just has what seems to to go to a very elongated exponential CV phase. It must be a really drawn out phase before it hits its current cutoff or some internal timer "pops" implicitly for safety cutoff. I suspect the later. If true, that is a missed termination with no error indication. Worst of the worst.
Either way something is not right.
I don't trust it and have requested again a RMA again from vendor. Just get the Pila for a consumer grade cradle charger. Did someone say 'guilty until proven innocence."
Note: Just by the wattage in the CC phase, the Pila seems to be faster charger over the WP6. The Pila goes to 7 max on the watt for CC, the WP6 most of the time shows 4, sometimes 5 watts. True, crude, but still some indication: For Pila (7-2)= 5 watts of CC. For WP6 (4-2)=2 or even rounding up only 3 vs the 5 for Pila. The battery/charger heat is also a secondary indication of more power being used with the Pila.
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Or as WikiMark has so well stated, you can justify both- right 🙂 I have an icharger 106B+ with small PS on the way for controls/flexibility/testing/etc. I suspect the Pila will still get a lot use.
