Consumer Li-Ion "cradle" charger roundup...

[pae77]

Well I'm pretty bad at math but FWIMBW I started charging an unprotected AW 10440 (stated capacity 350 mah) on the TR-001 when it read 3.79 volts as measured in my LF2XT. The LED turned green after 69 minutes at which point I pulled the battery and measured 4.16 volts in the LF2XT. (I have since ordered a DMM. 🙄)

I also recently obtained a "Nano clone" from Steve Ku that is designed to charge 10440's at a (stated) 200 mA. I suppose it probably trickle charges as well after the LED turns green so this is another charger that has to be watched so the battery can be pulled off when the LED turns green. But I'm happy (and lucky I suppose) that the LED on this one also turns green at a good voltage for extending cell life (4.15 volts, again according to my LF2XT). :thumbsup:

 

[klorsey]

Hi all,with this thread having a taste about it of being about constructing a safe and well designed charger I thought I'd share my favourite place to search around in for electronic/electrical etc. parts,bits & pieces and technical reference information.I have no financial interest in this group.

It is: jaycar.com.au

I'm not particularly interested in products like their LED torches etc,but they have a range of stuff that might just help you out in your quest to build the perfect whatever.They also have a good range of kits that I enjoyed building as a kid.

I live in Australia and I don't know if you have any or a million stores like this,but I understand they have a lot of North American customers so there might be a few hard to find components in there at least.

Build it.They will come.

 

[greed]

Hi,
Just thought you might like to know I've done some very basic/preliminary testing of a Trustfire TR-002 single cell charger that I bought in the hope it was slightly less rubbish than some of the cheaper and more implausibly rated chargers I saw on dx.

Anyway - in summary - it seems to be one of the chargers that is basically fine - except that it will go to around 4.2v and hold there, supplying whatever low current the battery wants (haven't tried using any artificial load to verify this) which in my case is around 20mA.

During charge it isn't constant current. I haven't tried charging from a very flat cell yet, but starting with a maybe 1/3 discharged 2400MaH 18650 it took around 1.5 hours to charge. It was supplying about 650mA until it reached 4v but this tapered down to 450mA by the time it was at 4.1v and, as stated above, was down to 20mA by the time it reached 4.22v (and the indicator led went green).

I did open it up. Not sure what the control scheme is exactly. There is a 14 pin chip with no markings that seems to be central to the charge control side of things. It doesn't seem to badly made as these things go - its the design flaws more than the quality of construction that bother me. Nothing too dodgy (as cheap nasty smps wall warts and their relatives go) and it runs cool.

I don't really feel the need to test it any further for now - but will check what it does when I try charging a more thoroughtly discharged cell. It doesn't seem any worse (or better) than the "average" chargers tested so I'm going to stick with it for now (and not leave it unattended/leave battery in after the LED goes green).

 

[jcw122]

I'd like to see the SheKor charger from Kaidomain added.

 

[Sparkss]

I know the topic is consumer cradles, but there has been a fair amount of posts regarding hobby chargers and some DIY cradles (I like the idea of buying a cheapo charger, ripping out the guts and using its cradle w/ a hobby charger 🙂).

My question was this: Is there a good, reasonably priced (around the same as a pila, which is $50 shipped everywhere I looked) that also had multiple channels ? (at least 2).

TIA 🙂

EDIT : I have not completed all the reading I need/intend to (don't have my li-ons yet either, so I have time), but what I took from all of my reading so far was the main issue was charging an over-discharged battery to where the charging rate was over 1C. This happens when a batttery is below a certain threshold volts and charging it would generate too much heat, causing the "bad" reaction, otherwise known as vent/flame. Wouldn't a hobby charger be able to bring such a battery "back from the depths" by setting the voltage charge rate lower than a standard charger would, to more slowly bring the battery back to within safety margins ? then use a "regular" charge cycle (once it is back above 3volts) to finish it off ?

Again, still doing alot of reading. My comments came from my past esperiences. I had taken several electronics courses a while back, was a licensed Commerical Electician (high voltage, facotry atuomation, etc, even worked on the telco's battery backup system once.. now that is alot of batteries.. only 24vdc, but all in parallel.. a truly scary amount of amps) for over a decade and now make my living as a computer tech/programmer. So I have alot of different "concepts" rolling aruond in my brain and still need to read up more on li-on to see how many of my "normal assumptions" actually apply 🙂. Short version is I am asking, not telling, so don't beat me up too badly for my comments 🙂

 

[Black Rose]

The Xtar WP6 is a 6 channel CC/CV cradle charger that has recently shown up.

Craig (csshih) has one and feels that it's a good charger.

sbflashlights is taking pre-orders for them, with an expected ship date of late July.

Hopefully this one will turn out to be a good alternative to the Pila.

 

[45/70]

My question was this: Is there a good, reasonably priced (around the same as a pila, which is $50 shipped everywhere I looked) that also had multiple channels ? (at least 2).

If you're talking hobby charger, no, not that I know of. There are other members here that may know of one though. Most of the two channel hobby chargers that I'm aware of, are in the $200-$300 range.

Wouldn't a hobby charger be able to bring such a battery "back from the depths" by setting the voltage charge rate lower than a standard charger would, to more slowly bring the battery back to within safety margins ? then use a "regular" charge cycle (once it is back above 3volts) to finish it off ?

The problem with an over discharged LiCo cell, without going into great detail, is that when they are discharged to a certain low level, irreversible damage occurs to the cell's structure. How much damage, depends on how low the cell was discharged, how long it remained in such a state, the specific construction of the cell, and the exact chemical composition used in it's construction. This varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and even between batches of cells from the same manufacturer.

So, while you may be able to revive a cell that has been over discharged, it can never again really be trusted. It may go on and lead a normal life, or it could "vent with flame" at any time in the future. The best thing to do, if you insist on trying to revive an over discharged cell, is to keep a very close eye on it. If it seems to get abnormally warm, doesn't hold a charge well, or demonstrates some other odd behavior, it's time to recycle the cell.

Most will say it's best to just recycle a LiCo cell that has been discharged below ~2.50 Volts. I'll have to go along with this, as I feel "better safe than sorry" is the best recommendation to give to others. I say that having a 14250 LiCo cell in my collection that I received with a 0.xx voltage that I did bring back with a bench supply, some years ago. It seems to work normally, but like I said, it can never really be trusted.

Dave

 

[mdocod]

The Xtar WP6 is a 6 channel CC/CV cradle charger that has recently shown up.

Craig (ccshih) has one and feels that it's a good charger.

sbflashlights is taking pre-orders for them, with an expected ship date of late July.

Hopefully this one will turn out to be a good alternative to the Pila.

I'm thinking about ordering one to test.... Was hoping that the seller might contact me to have it evaluated but I guess he/she doesn't know about this thread yet...

If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.

Eric

 

[DHart]

I'm thinking about ordering one to test.... Was hoping that the seller might contact me to have it evaluated but I guess he/she doesn't know about this thread yet...

If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.

Eric

Perhaps we should all chip in to get one for Eric. If it pans out as advertised, and Eric is an excellent gatekeeper on this, then we've all got an awesome solution to li-ion charging!

Anyone? Eric, where do we send funds?

 

[wquiles]

If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.

"If" being the key part of that sentence :naughty:

I have yet to buy anything coming from ASIA with aggressive specs that has meet them, so it is extremely likely that "something" is being stretched "a little". Precision parts simply cost more money, so if the cost is very disproportional to the capabilities promissed, almost always something "does not add up".

Nevertheless, I agree that buying one is a MUST to at least evaluate and see what specs are met, and which are not. Then all of us would have a better idea of what to expect.

Thanks again Eric for this great thread 😀

 

[Sparkss]

Most will say it's best to just recycle a LiCo cell that has been discharged below ~2.50 Volts. I'll have to go along with this, as I feel "better safe than sorry" is the best recommendation to give to others. I say that having a 14250 LiCo cell in my collection that I received with a 0.xx voltage that I did bring back with a bench supply, some years ago. It seems to work normally, but like I said, it can never really be trusted.

Ironically enough for this topic the Xtar states that if the batery is below 2.9v it will go into "trickle mode". Sounds like wht we are talking about ?

When the voltage is below 2.9V (±2%), the charger is in trickle charge mode,
When the voltage is 2.9V-4.1V (±1%), the charger is in constant current mode,
When the voltage is 4.1V-4.2V (±1%), the charger is in constant voltage mode.
This charger can monitor the status of each battery in real-time when charging. The batteries are charged intelligently and safely by monitoring the batteries status.

If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.

and @ almsot $20 less per unit (at for the prices I have been able to find for an IBC shipped).
However, If we go pure spec sheet vs spec sheet there are several chargers that match (or beat ?) the IBC. But the IBC wins out for build quality, reliability and consistency. So call me skeptical, but in this regard the lower cost just makes me suspicious. I don't like to pay more for less (with all things being equal) but I also believe in the old axiom that "you get what you paid for". and unfortunately even 1 test unit of the Xtar might not be enough to tell the tale of it's reliabilty (from one unit to another). Only after months or widespread use and collecting of user expereinces (many many data points) can we say for sure if it is really an "IBC Killer" 🙂. I am still waiting anxiously to see the results from a thorough test (like you perform). And many thanks for all of your efforts and this ver informative thread !!!

"If" being the key part of that sentence :naughty:

I have yet to buy anything coming from ASIA with aggressive specs that has meet them, so it is extremely likely that "something" is being stretched "a little". Precision parts simply cost more money, so if the cost is very disproportional to the capabilities promissed, almost always something "does not add up".

See my comments above. I couldn't agree more.

Nevertheless, I agree that buying one is a MUST to at least evaluate and see what specs are met, and which are not. Then all of us would have a better idea of what to expect.

I would be willing to donate $5 or so or so via PP to Eric for the purpose of acquiring one of these (Xtar) units for testing. If even half the people who take value from this thread do so then that shuold more than cover the cost.

Thanks again Eric for this great thread 😀

Ditto again on this one !!! 😀

 

[Sparkss]

Perhaps we should all chip in to get one for Eric. If it pans out as advertised, and Eric is an excellent gatekeeper on this, then we've all got an awesome solution to li-ion charging!

Anyone? Eric, where do we send funds?

Heheh, somehow I misssed your post when catching up reading and responding. My how greaty minds think alike !!! 🙂

 

[Black Rose]

I'm thinking about ordering one to test.... Was hoping that the seller might contact me to have it evaluated but I guess he/she doesn't know about this thread yet...

If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.

Eric

I posted a question about the charger in the sale thread, but I don't think my question will be answered until someone like you does a proper test on it.

The specs state:
"3. When the battery voltage is 4.20 (±1%), the charging is complete, the current will cut off completely （ <100uA ）. "

If the current cuts off completely, shouldn't the current be 0uA, not <100uA.

 

[45/70]

If the on-paper specs are true, then it'll have the IBC beat badly.

"If" being the key part of that sentence :naughty:

Simply looking at the "on paper specs", one can come to the conclusion that this charger is using some form of a voltage checking based algorithm, similar to the WF-139 and obviously, is not a true CC/CV charger. That said however, I agree that "if" the specs hold true, it may vary well be an improvement over most presently available chargers. The 6 independent charging bays is a real plus, as well. In any case, I don't see it as being a real threat to the Pila IBC unfortunately, as the Pila still seems to be the only "consumer type" Li-Ion charger that utilizes close, to a proper algorithm.

I have to think that the $30 price tag is going to turn off a lot of buyers. This is absurd, of course. As I've said before, why folks are willing to spend $30-$50 for a charger for their $2-$3 NiMH cells, but limit their expenditure to $10-$15 on a charger for their $5-$15 Li-Ion cells, is beyond my understanding.

Ironically enough for this topic the Xtar states that if the batery is below 2.9v it will go into "trickle mode". Sounds like wht we are talking about ?

I imagine that is the case. When I revived the 14250 LiCo, I hooked it up to a bench supply and ran about 5mA through it for a few minutes to bring the voltage up to ~3 Volts and then charged it on a normal charger. I don't see any mention of Xtar recommending this procedure though (for cells discharged to less than 2.50 Volts), and suspect this feature was added merely to start the charging of cells more gently, that have been discharged to a low (but not too low) voltage.

The specs state:
"3. When the battery voltage is 4.20 (±1%), the charging is complete, the current will cut off completely （ <100uA ）. "

If the current cuts off completely, shouldn't the current be 0uA, not <100uA.

You are of course correct, Black. 🙂 I would imagine that a 0.0001A trickle charge would have little effect on a cell, but still, it shouldn't be there. I would imagine that this "trickle" is somehow associated with the fact that this charger has voltage sensing, but I'm really no electronics expert for sure, just a "Weird Battery Person".

Hopefully the Xtar will bring some unexpected surprises. It's about time. On the other hand, as long as people keep buying up the cheapo chargers with improper algorithms, and giving them rave reveiws, there is little incentive for the Asian manufacturers to even bother with producing a "good" charger. 🙁

Dave

 

[wquiles]

If the current cuts off completely, shouldn't the current be 0uA, not <100uA.

That might be just the leakage current in the pass transistor when the transistor is OFF - there are no perfect switches. I would guess that other vendors have similar numbers and they just put down "zero", when they probably also might have some micro-amps.

 

[mdocod]

Yea, I better order one and test it.... Like Dave says, before someone else takes a 4.2V reading on a cell and sings to the world the praises of a wonderful charger that is actually an awful piece of garbage.

I'll place an order for one here either today or tomorrow.

I'm not sure if there are any rules regarding taking "donations" to help pay for this sort of thing so until I know more don't worry about it, if it's perfectly fine then maybe I'll start up a "to donate so I can test more chargers send $5 *here*" type of thing in the first post of this thread. I'm sure there are more chargers out there that are worth running through the paces.

Eric

 

[csshih]

I took mine apart and each channel has a charging chip. I have the datasheet somewhere and I'll post it when I get home.

 

[hank]

> counterfeit UL listing on the back ...
> Yes I called UL to confirm my suspicions.

Thank you. Please keep checking and reporting. This belongs in every review.

Also -- Google!
http://www.hexinyu.com/english/news_dtl.asp?id=88
is just one example with identification and pictures, found with
http://www.google.com/search?q=counterfeit+battery+charger




I'm still using 'Nano' chargers -- watching til the light changes, checking with the multimeter (on a metal plate with a fire extinguisher handy). Waiting for something better that's simple and small for recharging single cells.

I will keep watching this thread avidly.

 

[pae77]

😳Deleted, repeated info posted earlier, sorry.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

> counterfeit UL listing on the back ...
> Yes I called UL to confirm my suspicions.

Thank you. Please keep checking and reporting. This belongs in every review.

Also -- Google!
http://www.hexinyu.com/english/news_dtl.asp?id=88
is just one example with identification and pictures, found with
http://www.google.com/search?q=counterfeit+battery+charger




I'm still using 'Nano' chargers -- watching til the light changes, checking with the multimeter (on a metal plate with a fire extinguisher handy). Waiting for something better that's simple and small for recharging single cells.

I will keep watching this thread avidly.

Hank, I have two of those chargers, and they do have questionable performance. Been using them, and remove cells as soon as light turns green. Obviously this charger is not the 6 bay Extar that we are discussing right now.

Bill