CR2 ION turnaround?

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MY

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I think that the ION is a great light as advertised but unfortunately, it is too heavy for my EDC needs. Again, different strokes for different folks. As such, my Al-Bronze is up for sale in B/S/T as I will replace it with a HA version.

Regards.
 

idleprocess

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I've seen quick turnarounds on every short-run or custom light that comes out. Some people buy several then almost immediately resell, some seem to buy everything new that comes out and resell it after the novelty wears off, and others suffer from buyer's regret; none of them seem to have problems with it.
 

Lightedge

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I bought a Ti Ion and am very happy with it. I don't especially favor floods but close up work is the only way I can imagine using a tiny light like this. This thing is near perfect for close up work. Flawless, near white beam that is quite bright for about any purpose I can envision around the house etc. Great run-time too and the fit and finish on mine is excellent. Probably my best finished light.

Mine will never be on BST.
 

StanTeate

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The more I use my CR2 Ion the more I find the flood useful. In a dark room, it will light up a very wide path. It's very useful for close up work like reading serial numbers off a computer under a desk and the 2 levels don't screw up you vision in dark places where too much light is just as bad as not enough. I like having the high setting turn so far. You really mean to be on high, its not by accident. This is not a good light for looking down a long path outside. Since this is now a manufacturing forum thing, it would be nice to have the option to have the choice of a second head that sports a shiny reflector with a small die light source. The throw will probably not be as much as a Jill or FF because they have a larger reflector, but it would probably be somewhat close. The output would be much closer to what a lot of people are used to seeing. Don't get me wrong. I love the CR2 Ion. Perfect size, well machined, fit and finish are really nice. I would buy a second head that has throw similar to my FF if one was offered. Would you?
 

powernoodle

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Billson said:
Which version of the JIL are you referring to? I've never seen a runtime chart of the JIL. Is it as flat as the ION because the ion's is downright flat and that's one of the main reasons I bought it.

I'm referring to the JIL 1.3W. The JIL's chart isn't flat as a tabletop, but its close. See here.

Have you been able to verify that the Ion gives off less lumens than the JIL? I don't think you can properly compare total light output since the beam proflies are totally different.

To my eyeballs, the JIL makes about twice the volume of light. When I shine each at the opposite corner of a 10' x 10' room, for example, it is readily apparent. Lots of light vs. not lots of light. Its a Lux III T-bin vs. a CREE, and a mirrored reflector vs. non-mirrored, so its no shocker. This is neither good nor bad, its just a piece of data. :)

The beam profiles, I think, are not really that different. The floody/spilly portion of each beam covers the same surface area (at the same distance) at about the same level of intensity, if that makes sense. The JIL just adds a big fat hotspot to it, and thats where all of those extra lumens are showing up.

I'm starting to beat a dead one here, so I'll zip it. :nana: :wave:


peace
 

Endeavour

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paulr said:
It also seemed to me from the photos like the Ion's finish isn't quite at the level of some other lights that are out there.

In regards specifically to this comment, I'm sorry, but that one's about the furthest from the truth out there. It's worth noting that most virulent naysayers don't actually own a CR2 Ion to judge for themselves what is and isn't, and I've got very few photos of particularly high detail posted, being far more concerned with building the lights rather than photographing them for the time being. The photos posted by other users aren't of particularly high quality except for a couple of nice ones (Bob_G comes to mind).

For the most part an overwhelming majority of people who have ordered the flashlight have been pleased with their purchase. Flood lights are not for some people, and the Ion is what it is, and has always been advertised as such.

I would like to request that people make at least some minimal effort at comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges... In the case of the Jil flashlight, it's an entirely different light. It may share the same battery, but that's the only similarity between the two, and a comparison between two grossly different lights, with completely different design specifications and beam patterns, isn't much of a good one. Compare an anodized finish on the Ion to an anodized finish; a raw one in Titanium or Aluminum Bronze to a raw finish. Compare the flood beam to another flood beam. The human eye is a grossly inaccurate instrument of measure, and no one is going to be able to tell within a reasonable margin of error how a light with a profound hotspot compares to a light that has its entire output smoothly distributed across a much more broad area. Ultimately, comparing the Ion to any other CR2 based light, just because of a common CR2 power source, will not amount to anything of particular worth, since there simply are no other lights out there except the original McLux TKs that I am aware of that produce a similar beam pattern. The fact of the matter is that there are very few lights out there that are at all similar to the Ion, and the ones that are out there are rather dated now; current comparisons are like a Mercedes being compared to a Hyundai on the basis that they both use gasoline, both have wheels, both have engines, and other such common features, but by no stretch of the imagination are they at all similar vehicles aside from both being under the classification of being an automobile and perhaps having a similar sized engine. Likewise for the existing selection of CR2 based flashlights.

The Ion was designed to be put on a keychain, and used in the dark. It lights up your close surroundings well, and that was always the design objective, which was wholly met. A beam with a reading of 140,000 Lux that has a blinding center hotspot is rather useless if you're trying to get around in the dark; a keychain light isn't needed for lighting up an object tens of yards away, there are other, larger lights, and different light sources all together for that purpose.

To put to rest a few comments that have come up in the past all at once while typing here: About battery rattle - if you turn the light off without twisting it far off the case it's minimal, or gone. The case was left with a relatively generous amount of room in order to accomodate the maximum range of battery sizes, primaries and rechargeables alike, so no one would have any trouble with that factor regardless of the brand used. There have been designs in the past that were limited in the brands of cells they could use, which is a bit of a nuisance if a wrapper ends up being a little thicker than normal. In regards to the reflector - it's polished. To suggest that the reflector is simply machined and has no polishing at all is absolutely untrue. If you don't believe me, take a look inside through the front end; there's a full, yellow die reflected in the entirety of the surface, which wouldn't happen if it wasn't reflective. This "issue" is compounded more for the end user by not being able to view the reflector from as many angles as can be seen during assembly, and that the LED itself imparts a "haze" to the surface that may make it appear different than what it actually is.

All that said, I do take most folks' comments into account, and will remember if there comes a time to make a revision on the Ion. I do, however, hope to keep things reasonably accurate on the portrayal of a product so no misconceptions are made. All points made in the past I do believe I've covered, and I don't suspect I'll be making another post on the matter now that it's been cleared up. Carry on. :wave:

-Enrique
 

yaesumofo

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Thanks for coming out and clearing things up for us. I tend to agree with most points especially about the idea of making comparisons across different types of flashlights. It is not really fair to compare a luxeon III to the Cree emitters. They just don't have that much in common. The CR2 ION is a unique flashlight. Somebody, earlier in the thread somebody mentioned the idea of a second head for the flashlight. I would love to have a second head with a tighter beam, It really isn't a bad idea. maybe making a luxeon version with a reflector or optic....it could be done. Like I said earlier the comparison to the Jil lite had not even occurred to me and I have both lights. When it comes to the finish I am partial to the JIL because it reminds me of the old ARC flashlights. The rattle issue does bother me a bit. I am pretty sure you would be able to achieve a no rattle flashlight without compromise. Believe me I understand the idea of making compromises in projects, it is tough.

The CR2 ION is a fine flashlight. Personally I will hang on to mine.
I also said that if this light were brighter it would have a shorter runtime and that somebody would complain....and they would. It is impossible to please everybody out here all the time. There will always be somebody to complain about brightness or run time. That is part of the nature of the forums. It is part of what makes this place interesting.
Yaesumofo



Endeavour said:
In regards specifically to this comment, I'm sorry, but that one's about the furthest from the truth out there. It's worth noting that most virulent naysayers don't actually own a CR2 Ion to judge for themselves what is and isn't, and I've got very few photos of particularly high detail posted, being far more concerned with building the lights rather than photographing them for the time being. The photos posted by other users aren't of particularly high quality except for a couple of nice ones (Bob_G comes to mind).

For the most part an overwhelming majority of people who have ordered the flashlight have been pleased with their purchase. Flood lights are not for some people, and the Ion is what it is, and has always been advertised as such.

I would like to request that people make at least some minimal effort at comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges... In the case of the Jil flashlight, it's an entirely different light. It may share the same battery, but that's the only similarity between the two, and a comparison between two grossly different lights, with completely different design specifications and beam patterns, isn't much of a good one. Compare an anodized finish on the Ion to an anodized finish; a raw one in Titanium or Aluminum Bronze to a raw finish. Compare the flood beam to another flood beam. The human eye is a grossly inaccurate instrument of measure, and no one is going to be able to tell within a reasonable margin of error how a light with a profound hotspot compares to a light that has its entire output smoothly distributed across a much more broad area. Ultimately, comparing the Ion to any other CR2 based light, just because of a common CR2 power source, will not amount to anything of particular worth, since there simply are no other lights out there except the original McLux TKs that I am aware of that produce a similar beam pattern. The fact of the matter is that there are very few lights out there that are at all similar to the Ion, and the ones that are out there are rather dated now; current comparisons are like a Mercedes being compared to a Hyundai on the basis that they both use gasoline, both have wheels, both have engines, and other such common features, but by no stretch of the imagination are they at all similar vehicles aside from both being under the classification of being an automobile and perhaps having a similar sized engine. Likewise for the existing selection of CR2 based flashlights.

The Ion was designed to be put on a keychain, and used in the dark. It lights up your close surroundings well, and that was always the design objective, which was wholly met. A beam with a reading of 140,000 Lux that has a blinding center hotspot is rather useless if you're trying to get around in the dark; a keychain light isn't needed for lighting up an object tens of yards away, there are other, larger lights, and different light sources all together for that purpose.

To put to rest a few comments that have come up in the past all at once while typing here: About battery rattle - if you turn the light off without twisting it far off the case it's minimal, or gone. The case was left with a relatively generous amount of room in order to accommodate the maximum range of battery sizes, primaries and rechargeables alike, so no one would have any trouble with that factor regardless of the brand used. There have been designs in the past that were limited in the brands of cells they could use, which is a bit of a nuisance if a wrapper ends up being a little thicker than normal. In regards to the reflector - it's polished. To suggest that the reflector is simply machined and has no polishing at all is absolutely untrue. If you don't believe me, take a look inside through the front end; there's a full, yellow die reflected in the entirety of the surface, which wouldn't happen if it wasn't reflective. This "issue" is compounded more for the end user by not being able to view the reflector from as many angles as can be seen during assembly, and that the LED itself imparts a "haze" to the surface that may make it appear different than what it actually is.

All that said, I do take most folks' comments into account, and will remember if there comes a time to make a revision on the Ion. I do, however, hope to keep things reasonably accurate on the portrayal of a product so no misconceptions are made. All points made in the past I do believe I've covered, and I don't suspect I'll be making another post on the matter now that it's been cleared up. Carry on. :wave:

-Enrique
 

luxlunatic

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Well put Enrique, and nice follow-up mofo. This is a unique light with a pourpose, FLOOD. It was designed that way and it functions great that way. I'm loving my TiION, but as was said, different strokes........
 

JJohn

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As one of the earlier battery rattle complainers, let me say that this issue is trivial to solve. Slide a small piece of paper or plastic in along side the battery and the rattle is gone. No need to fabricate any tubes or to tape up your batteries. In my case, I used a 2 cm square of glossy photo paper (just happened to be on my desk) into the tube and there is now no rattle. I have not even thought of it since.

I almost feel like I should retract the original comment as the ability to use any available battery brand is far more valuable than any worries about something that can so easily be made to go away forever.

John
 

karlthev

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I'm with you Enrique. I have an Al-Bronze version and while I have never, never been a floodlight aficiando, that was the reason that I bought this beauty. It has the perfect wake up in the middle of the night level and, when cranked up to the high level, lights up an entire room. It is the perfect size for belt case carry and, has excellent machining. I really didn't know exactly what to expect when I first put my name on the list but, I'm sure glad I did and then later, upgraded to the Al-Bronze. In retrospect, I wish I'd gone the whole nine yards and gotten a Ti although I just may be able to squeak out another Ion and I'm sure trying to do so, most likely another Al-Bronze although I'd sure like that Ti version :broke: If you're looking for throw, ya just gotta go---to some other light! If you're looking for a really nice, high quality carrier that you'll be proud to show and use, this is your ticket! :rock:


Karlthev
 

wasBlinded

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I'll admit that for showing off, or simply for psychological reasons, a tiny light that throws far is somehow more satisfying than the CR2 Ion - at least to me. But, Enrique is quite right - he designed it to be a task light and for that the smooth flood beam is just the ticket. For useability as a personal light this is ideal.
 

paulr

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Enrique is right, I don't own an Ion (yet). I saw one at a CPF get-together and it was very nice. I believe the photo I'm thinking of was not taken by Enrique. It showed an n Al bronze Ion next to one of tvodrd's lights, probably a CR2-II (I don't have the photo url handy). Of course any tvodrd light is an extremely tough act to follow however it seemed to me that the knurls on the Ion just didn't look as precise. I'm thinking now that I was in error calling that the "finish" but I'm not expert at this metalworking stuff. This photo was one of the factors that currently makes me favor an HA or Ti version of the Ion over the Al Bronze (this is more a matter of the color than the knurling though, I especially like the red HA).

I have to say I'm also (slightly) disturbed by the issue of LED centering as discussed in another thread. This was also a problem with the Nichia emitters in the $15 (at the time) CMG Ultra-G and people grumbled about it slightly in that light. But the Ultra-G was a "tool" light (like a Casio G-Shock wristwatch) and users couldn't expect too much fuss over slight cosmetic imperfections. A Ti Ion is almost 20x as expensive as an Ultra-G and people don't buy it purely for its functionality. Their reasons for buying it are partly in common with the reasons why people buy Rolexes, and their expectations are set accordingly. Cosmetic issues matter. A Rolex with a serious cosmetic blemish is defective even if it functions properly as a timepiece. The Ion isn't jewelry and is 1/10th the price of a Rolex, but I'd still feel better about the Ion if LED centering problems were correctable in some way.
 

liteboy

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yaesumofo said:
I have got to say that if I were to compare the JIL to the CR2 ION the fit and finish of the lights while quite close... the edge has to go with the JIL lights ...
Yaesumofo

I find this to be a curious statement. Unless I am misinterpreting your comment. I have owned a Jil (Intelli) and I gave it away b/c the light felt cheaply made to me. The body felt plasticky. The Ion, on the other had looks to be more solidly constructed and machined than any other small light out there (I don't own one and do not plan to b/c I need more throw in an EDC light). I hope others who own both lights can chime in here...
 

Solstice

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Not to stir the pot here, but in this thread we have two very experienced CPFers voicing advantages of the Jil over the Ion (yaesumofo claiming better fit and finish, Powernoodle saying that the beam profile's are similar but the Jil has more output with a similar runtime). Now I don't own the Ion and I don't like smearing products that someone has worked very hard to bring into the world. Here is my problem reading these comments: Price.

Now I'm sure you can start the apples to apples and oranges to oranges comments and all, but the simple fact of the matter is that the aluminum ION costs about TWICE as much as the Jil. For that money, I would expect a hands down, clear supperiority on ALL fronts in favor of the more expensive product. I'm sure the ION is an excellent light for its intended purpose. I'm not even trying to compare it to the Jil (even though I do think such a comparison is fair and to be expected). What I am saying is that I think the ION is too expensive for its "value" and that MAY be the reason for the turnover. I understand that the cheaper lights are mass produced in Asia and the ION is more of a custom run on a production scale, but I think that the high price is the main reason why certain factors aren't being overlooked as much as they would had the light been cheaper. Just my 2 cents- not trying to be a "hater" or start a war or anything.
 

CroMAGnet

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I'll chime in on both. I got to play with the CR2 Ion at the Get-together and really didn't want to give it back. The closest beam comparison is a my McLux TK 1w which uses a McFlood reflector. It's actually even nicer, smoother and of similar tint. I have a bunch of Jil lights and it is NOTHING like the Jil other than same battery and the size is similar. That's about it. If you like a useful low level flood light like a McLux TK then you'll like this light.

I am concerned with the talk of the LED centering being askew on some lights. When showing off the light I'd be concerned with non flashaholic friends being able to nitice it and bring it up to me. That would not be good. Not because of what they think but that they could actually notice it. :shrug:
 

Bob_G

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Powernoodle saying that the beam profile's are similar but the JIL has more output with a similar runtime.
This simply isn't true in my experience, and I was flabbergasted when I first read it. I have a JIL 1.3 UP and a CR2 Ion, one each. The beam of the JIL is well chosen, a nice fat spot as Powernoodle says. The beam of the CR2 Ion is as close as I've seen (along with the McR-19) to a pure flood from a reflectored LED. The spill is obviously brighter with the Ion. Eyeballing it, I would guess their measured output would be about the same (flux not lux.) I'm not saying the spill is a lot brighter, just that it's obvious to the eye, which makes it significant.

Funny, the biggest difference between the two for me, and I don't think it really makes any sense comparing them, except that there are so few CR2 lights available, is the ergonomics. The JIL is a pain to use for me. Very poorly designed knurling, being all placed where you don't need it (in the middle of the light) and none where you do, at the head and tail. Maybe other versions are different, but my JIL rides on my keychain, where I never use it unless I have to, and the Ion is in my pocket.

I'm not saying the CR2 Ion is perfect. Mine has some variation of low beam flicker across three battery brands, Duracell, BatteryStation and Titanium. They each have their own character, which is interesting. Titanium are the worst, a pretty consistent flickering. Duracell flicker occasionally, but settle down when they do, and BatteryStation don't really flicker, more like a flick, until they settle to low.
 

NewBie

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paulr said:
Enrique is right, I don't own an Ion (yet). I saw one at a CPF get-together and it was very nice. I believe the photo I'm thinking of was not taken by Enrique. It showed an n Al bronze Ion next to one of tvodrd's lights, probably a CR2-II (I don't have the photo url handy). Of course any tvodrd light is an extremely tough act to follow however it seemed to me that the knurls on the Ion just didn't look as precise. I'm thinking now that I was in error calling that the "finish" but I'm not expert at this metalworking stuff. This photo was one of the factors that currently makes me favor an HA or Ti version of the Ion over the Al Bronze (this is more a matter of the color than the knurling though, I especially like the red HA).

I have to say I'm also (slightly) disturbed by the issue of LED centering as discussed in another thread. This was also a problem with the Nichia emitters in the $15 (at the time) CMG Ultra-G and people grumbled about it slightly in that light. But the Ultra-G was a "tool" light (like a Casio G-Shock wristwatch) and users couldn't expect too much fuss over slight cosmetic imperfections. A Ti Ion is almost 20x as expensive as an Ultra-G and people don't buy it purely for its functionality. Their reasons for buying it are partly in common with the reasons why people buy Rolexes, and their expectations are set accordingly. Cosmetic issues matter. A Rolex with a serious cosmetic blemish is defective even if it functions properly as a timepiece. The Ion isn't jewelry and is 1/10th the price of a Rolex, but I'd still feel better about the Ion if LED centering problems were correctable in some way.


For people that have an obsession with perfection, like the white wall aficionados, the tint police, and such, a centered emitter would be important. I would have to agree, in the price range, one would expect a centered emitter.

One would have to go back to the comments of an infamous CPF'er, Peter Gransee, and understand that a flashlight for most people is a tool. Something designed to be used. Not set on a shelf as a trophy, or on one's person, like a piece of jewelry. I seem to recall numberous posts about these things being intended for keychains and the like, not something you'd adorn the Queen with. Of course, those ARC4+ lights had an entire pile of issues in their own right, that really shouldn't have been there, in a light of it's price range. Ridges in reflector, dust inside, lots of aluminum shavings in some lights, farkle, tubes that were ground down on grinding wheels at angles (not even flat), the infamous button problems, click deals, lots of pinholes in the HAIII, and a whole host of other issues.

To be fair, I would have to say, wiggling around the emitter in this reflector results in *very* little change in the output beam, even when looking at it with an obsession on a white wall. This is due to the reflector not really doing optical focusing, and the LED not being as much of a point source as the Luxeon.

Remember, this CREE device has a much larger source size than the LumiLEDs part, plus the reflector is just redirecting light (very broad cone), not focusing it.

Thus, technically, centering has little effect on Endeavor's light-from a functional standpoint...Short for the profectionists that need everything absolutely perfect.


Quite honestly, after all is said and done, I'd have to say that even the highly touted Larry light fell short in a few areas....hopefully if someone picks it up, they will figure out how to square those things away, and work out the manufacturing issues of the design.


On to the wall bounce. A person will in fact see more localized reflected light when bouncing a focused beam off a wall. Where, even with the same power, a diffuse beam (flood), will certainly look dimmer for reflected light.

A lot of newbies don't comprehend things like that.

The only real way to judge the total lumens with accuracy, would be with an integrating sphere. Thats why they are used for lumen testing.

Now, if a person had a square room, that was all painted with white, and a white floor the comparision would be alot more accurate.

A fairly far flung comparsion could be done if a light meter was taken all over the room, and all the readings were added up, including the nooks and crannies, as a flood beam would do a better job of lighting everything up off a wall. A white corner isn't that great of a method to use. The reason why, is it acts more like a retro-reflector. Upon immediate glancing around a room, one would quickly judge it to be brighter. But, if you were to go look, you'd noticed everything in the room is filled in with light better. A simultaneous comparison, off two corners would work even worse yet. You'd have the very diffuse source filling in areas all over the room, where the spot light would essentially cast back more of a flood beam.

Thats why they use an integrating sphere, so that it keeps bouncing the light all over the sphere, and causes it to be uniformly lit inside. Anytime it isn't evenly lit, say like not having a highly reflective coating inside, results in errors in your measurements.


Another error that often creeps in, especially with LEDs, is where a person compares LEDs with different tints. LED spectrums even cause havoc with cheap light meters, like the LM631, and will often give you erronous readings. They work for a rough comparision, but they do have errors from meter to meter, especially when the spectral content is changed.


Then there is the human eye and age. A young fella, has a very clear lens and gel in his eye. By the time you hit 40, the lens is already turning brown. As such, the bluish end of the spectrum starts becoming attenuated. What appearred as a nice white at 16, 4500K, to appear the same at age 40, takes 5500-6500K to look the same. Thus a 16 year old would say, for example that a WO is brighter than an XO bin, at the same lumens. But an older gent might tell you on no uncertain terms, that the XO is definitely alot brighter than the WO, since it looks more white to him.

This quickly spins off into the whole field of color science, where plenty of scientist types spend their whole life...

So, to even start upon doing a decent comparision, the LED tint would also have to be matched. But even with two emitters from the XO bin, their actual spectral outputs can be quite different. I've seen LumiLEDs devices that have their blue spike at 430nm, and with another device having a blue spike at 480nm, yet they both are from the XO bin. It is interesting, how it affects the color rendering, but I'll save that for another time.

Anyhow, thats my take on things. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a production version of the CR2 Ion myself, but did get to spend time with one of the prototypes, which I really liked alot. I'll have to see about getting one of the production versions, as I understand there were a number of improvements from the prototype I got to test-which I was pretty pleased with already.

It will be really interesting to seen future versions, and new lights that Endeavor takes on in the future. IMHO, a really good first flashlight, few people hit the mark as high as Endeavor did with this, his first light. For some, it took them years to get to the same point, and others still haven't attained it yet.

Hopefully, Endeavor takes various comments that have been made, to heart, gaining a fuller understanding of what customers really want, and will utilize this experience in his next light.
 

CroMAGnet

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Bob_G said:
Does the divided soul remain the same?
No equation to explain
Destiny's hand
Moved ... by love
Drawn ... by the whispering shadows
Into the mathematics, of our desires
That's pretty kewl. Where's it from, or did you write it? :)
 

yaesumofo

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The Jill lights remind me of my ARC flashlights in terms of their fit and finish. The Hill Light is very well made. Let me preface this by saying that I had in no way even contiplated comparing these two lights until I read some comparisons here.
As I look at the these two lights when I look at fit and finish I can look for battery rattle my Jill has none. I can look at the quality of the finish, the JIL is perfect. Very much like the ARC of the old days. The CR2 ION has a few little problems not the least of which is the poor laser etching of the name of the light. On mine the words seem to have a faded look. Note that I am not comparing function of these lights just how they look and how well they were made and finished.
I like the JIL very much. I also like the CR2 ION very nice flash light.
I still give the edge to the fit and finish quality to the JIL.
These are purely subjective viewpoints. Your opinions will vary. That is good.
Perfect is.
Neither of these lights are anything but close.

Yaesumofo



liteboy said:
I find this to be a curious statement. Unless I am misinterpreting your comment. I have owned a Jil (Intelli) and I gave it away b/c the light felt cheaply made to me. The body felt plasticky. The Ion, on the other had looks to be more solidly constructed and machined than any other small light out there (I don't own one and do not plan to b/c I need more throw in an EDC light). I hope others who own both lights can chime in here...
 
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