credit card FRAUD at botach.com

hmmwv

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 27, 2000
Messages
155
Location
Santa Clara, CA USA
Well - I'm just now getting calmed down enough to WARN the other users about this latest www.botach.com problem.

A few days ago, I decided it would be good to have duplicates of my two favorite flashlights, the 9N and the M6 for my cabin, so if I arrive and forget to bring one, it's already there.

Despite my better judgement from ***ALL*** of the people who've gotten F***ed at botach, I saw they had a 15% off advertisement, and since these were expensive flashlights, 15% was (at the time) worth the risk.

I used their website, ordered, got my discount, and went to bed a happy camper. Next day - jfaeivae from botach calls, and says the M6 is not in stock [GEE FOLKS, HAVE WE HEARD THIS STORY SOMEWHERE BEFORE], but that it is not a problem - ne noted that I demanded in the (comments) field in their website to have a UPS tracking number emailed to me [AGAIN - ESPECIALLY AFTER **ALL** THE PROBLEMS WITH BOTACH] - so he was just calling to tell me that it would take two days to get a tracking number since they were going to "drop-ship" the M6 from surefire, but ship the 9N from botach. Then he decided it would save shipping to just drop ship the entire order from surefire, so he set it up that way, and let me know I wouldn't get a UPS tracking no. for 2 days.

Now at this point, I'm really surprised, impressed, and glad I gave them a second chance - after all - they are doing what I asked with respect to the tracking no, and they called back -two problems we've all heard before about botach - maybe things are getting bette.....

ring.

Must have been 45 seconds. My phones ringing again.

Alex calls (or alan - something like that) from botach - he lets me know there's been a mistake - since the items are technically not "in stock", they can't give me the 15% discount, and must charge full price. I tell Alan this is called "BAIT AND SWITCH" AND that the practice is illegal in California. So Alan Cancels the order. But conveniently neglects to cancel the nearly $400 charge on my credit card.

So I go call surefire and tell them this latest botach incident - they add it to the pile of complaints, and give me the customer service numbers of two other reps for their product - I ordered a 9N from brightguy (who isn't their rep) - and a 9N / M6 for the cabin from their rep nearby.

Now - here's the fun part -all these charges - all between 300 and 400 dollars - and all in a 24 hour period - this sets off the FRAUD ALARM at wells fargo bank, who calls today, who asks if I've spent $1000 in the last 36 hours - I said, no, more like 600, so we go through all the "companies" listed - brightguy, etc, and among them much to my surprise is www.botach.com!

I told them this was pure and simple fraud - after bait-and-switch tactics that failed, and a request to cancel the order, they left the credit card charge in place - I told them I wanted to file FRAUD charges with the district attorney in LA, and I wanted a police response to the locked doors at botach.com. Unfortunately, all wells fargo's fraud department could do was cancel my card, issue me a new number, and block the charge from botach from hitting my account.

First they nailed Brock - now they nailed me with credit card fraud - there seems to be a patter forming here - are there any LAPD officers that read these forums who could go take their SL-35x's and "knock" on botach's locked, bar'ed up doors and have a chat with these folks?

With the way they treat their customers, it's a good thing they do have locked doors all day long with bars on the window.

NEVER AGAIN.
 

Bucky

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 31, 2000
Messages
432
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
I see that this has managed to be posted at many a place, which is good, but perhaps THE best place to add this post is at the Good, Bad & Ugly forum on Bladeforums located at http://www.bladeforums.com/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=25&SUBMIT=Go . That forum was specifically designed to address problems such as this.

BTW, I am currently experiencing a similar problem with Botach and I have already sworn off them after placing an order BEFORE Christmas that has still not been resolved. Ironically enough though, it was the fault of UPS this time (at first at least) after they left a package at my house without a signature and it was either delivered to the wrong house,stolen from my doorstep or never delivered. The problem arose when Botach started to seriously drag their feet in getting me a refund. Unortunately, UPS refunds the shipper not the person to whom the package was to be shipped when a loss claim is filed. That means Botach needs to be credited first before I get my refund. Well to make a long story short, Botach is not refunding my money even after being paid for my lost package by UPS. In essence they have made their regular profit on my $120, then received another free $120 by keeping my refund from UPS.

Of course I call and call and every time they tell me it is being processed. What can I really do from here though? Any action that I would take would cost more time and effort then it is worth - literally.

We all think that even though many here and other places have posted about how bad Botach is that it won't happen to us. But like every important lesson, it has to be learned first hand. This post nor any other will deter all people from buying from Botach. Some will heed this warning and take their business elsewhere, but most will not. The prices at Botach are too tempting, even for people who should know better
smile.gif
, like me.

I will never place an order with them ever again.

Bucky
 

AlexGT

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 15, 2001
Messages
3,651
Location
Houston, Texas
And thinking I WAS going to make an online order with them ! NO F!"$#ING WAY, 1.7 Dlls 123´s won´t do it.

I have an Idea Why don´t we start "Burning" this guy with all his distributors ? we can go to his site to "shop" around for manufacturers and then mail them about this "wonderful" business that´s called Botach, his even better communicating and service oriented owner, and direct them for "further assistance" all these this honest to God Forums full of nice people who are desperate to get quality products without having to put up with E-holes like this one!

Or maybe, just sue the guy! Read someone here that "has a lawer that makes the OJ dream team look like Larry Curly and Moe" You could definetly use that one.

Thanks for the warning, I sure will comply.

Ps. Botach, FY! You´re not getting my $
 

axolotls

Enlightened
Joined
Jan 31, 2001
Messages
354
Location
Zone III
Thank you for your post. I have read Brock's comments previously, as well as a few others. But, last week I decided to get in on their 15% deal to get some L1's and a Streamlight. I tried to get through their system but it kept giving me some stupid Credit Card error (even though I was trying to pay by PayPal or MO). After seven tries of backing up and fiddling with entries, I called them. I was transferred on the phone and it rang about 300,000 times before someone picked it up. He said, the server was acting funny and to try back in 30 minutes. I did an hour later, still all fouled up. Tried it later that night and selected PayPal. I got an order receipt, but no instructions to use PayPal.

So, I just waited for an e-mail invoice or a msg.. whatever... It's been five days and after reading the bull$(*! you've and other people have been through. I'd rather get this stuff from Glowbug, BrightGuy or whoever else has good CS. It ain't worth saving $$$ on this. So they ain't getting a dime from me.

I feel for you man. Give it to them.
tongue.gif
 

dano

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 11, 2000
Messages
3,885
Location
East Bay, Cali.
In my last job, I was a senior loss prevention agent for a major dept. store, and specialized in credit card fraud, mainly counterfeit cards, but also with employee involved credit card fraud...and the original case above sound VERY suspicious.

I could assume that the order was cancelled, but the card was still charged because someone over at this place (name withheld)is taking the merch., or taking the $$$ in an amount equivalent to the charge.

Your best bet is to notify the LA county district atty., fraud dept. They may be able to at least log the complaint, as i'm positive there must be more complaints that the LA DA has heard about. LAPD won't do anything, unless you live down there; they wont do a telephone report for something like this. Did Wells Fargo do a chargeback? Small businesses dont like chargebacks...

If anyone has any credit card related questions, or wants info emailed, feel free to email me...

--dan
 

hmmwv

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 27, 2000
Messages
155
Location
Santa Clara, CA USA
Botach has been described as a closed-down pawnshop with bars on the windows/doors and no business hours (i.e. locked all the time - likely so angry customers can't get in and beat the crap out of them)

Their pawnshop status was one of the database triggers that the credit card company used to flag the transaction as "suspicious" - my guess is that they mark pawnshops as suspicious places - if they only knew about botach.

I do think I'll call botach's merchant bank and make sure they know that even though there's a "storefront" - there is no business hours that it's open - this makes them a mailorder house only, and raises their risk on the FRAUD database considerably.

What really irked me was that surefire is still selling product to botach. With SO many people having SO many bad experienced with the hell-hole - you'd think that SF would say, "we don't want our product represented this way" - It would be like gucci shoes allowing both nordstroms and the local fleamarket to sell the same item.

I do think that as more and more people read about botach's problems, they *WILL* LOOSE customers, or potential customers. The pen is mightier than the sword, which makes the internet a thermonuclear device.
 
D

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
well, last time I talked to someone at Botach THEY call ME because THERY 'were having a problem with credit card fraud' -- (and the last time I was at the site I couldn't get it to work either) -- so I don't know, if they're really all bad guys I don't think they'd bother calling you in the first place..maybe they ARE having an internal problem...
...and by the way...why not contact them about the 'false' charge and give them a chance to credit you? Evidently even the FBI has a mole, or two....
...I dunno, I've had, with an exception or two, that was taken care of, smooth sailing with Botach, (...I'm sorry...forgive me...is this why one of my stars has faded?)
 

Brock

Flashaholic
Joined
Aug 6, 2000
Messages
6,346
Location
Green Bay, WI USA
Hi Ted, I think the problem is that they are doing something illegal right from the start. Yes, people should call them and give them a chance to redeem themselves. I feel like that is asking a car thief to give the car back. They broke the law already, is it our job to correct it?

As far as my situation is concerned I have called, emailed, even written a certified snail mail letter. I still haven't gotten the situation corrected. I do agree that a lot of the problem is just Botach being confused and disorganized on a lot of things, but they make it my problem when it is theirs.

Seriously though it is just $30, but I can't let it go on the principal, it isn't about the $ anymore, it is them getting away with it.

Brock
 

hmmwv

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Oct 27, 2000
Messages
155
Location
Santa Clara, CA USA
Brock has it exactly right - BOTACH is counting on people not complaining much about a small order, and getting by with breaking the law because the LA district attorney's office isn't going to go after a pawn shop that sells flashlights on the internet. I'm sure there are much larger problems to deal with in LA than BOTACH.

The only way to "deal" with botach is to make sure the word gets out. Make sure that the next botach webpage sale is a going-out-of-business sale. (I'd say closing our doors for good -but hey - their doors are already closed for good - something I'm going to report to merchant card services since it'll up their rates for taking credit card transactions).
 

Brock

Flashaholic
Joined
Aug 6, 2000
Messages
6,346
Location
Green Bay, WI USA
All I can say is I am still working to get a credit for the light I ordered in December. I will have to try Jessie, but I still am never ordering from them again and would not recommend them to any friend of mine. If other people feel lucky try your shot, but for the most part I have found other places that come very close in price and I don't have the Botch factor, oh I mean Botach.

Brock
 
D

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
same here i am going with Brock on this one for sure thay got me os i know and in time thay will get you too thay are real bad you'll see

i am going with
Arizona Gun Runners for now i just got a 8AX415HA and a lot of accessories from them
 

paranoid9999

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20
Location
Hawaii
Two days ago I received two Hard-Anodized E2's from Botach. They do have them at 56.25 plus $6 for the HA version. Yes, their service borders on the criminal...but the more orders you do, the better their service gets. Don't ask me why, it doesn't make sense to me either. I was one of the first to complain bloody murder on Bladeforums about them so you know that I'm not coming from the "never-been-screwed-before" camp.
 

paranoid9999

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20
Location
Hawaii
Wow, I guess I've had good luck since my first botched order. I really don't think that they [botach] means to screw people...I think that they just have inexperienced personnel who just happen to speak english as a second or third language. I cannot place the accent, but it makes me think middle eastern. I wish all of those who have been wronged by Botach, a speedy refund or resolution. After five separate orders, only one of which went badly, I will continue to throw some business their way. I can think of at least one online business (which will remain nameless) whose personnel can speak perfect english but are rude and have such *strong* personalities that dealing with them is a exercise in frustration. If the administrator of this board has a big problem with my personal endorsement then I encourage him or her to let me know via email. I have had such vigorous responses from the membership that I think that I make this post at my own risk. The major point I wanted to make is that they do indeed have the Surefire E2 at a killer price. Botach I think has received the bulk of the bad press but has the best prices that I have found bar none. Check out these threads!
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000059
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000043
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000064
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000148
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000150
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000271

I think that with all the bad press that they get that a single opinion that expresses the opposite of the majority [mine], the desire to "cap" my post with a "just-wait-until-you-get-screwed" is pretty overwhelming. I mean, I'm sure people can decide for themselves after a search of posts whether they want to do business with them or not.

P.S I think if I really wanted to promote Botach AKA Botched I would have started whole new threads, not just responded to original complaint threads. Just something to think about.

More data or as someone has put it, 10,000+ "centers of influence"
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000413.html
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000936.html
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/001179.html
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/001228.html
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/001350.html
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/001487.html
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/001533.html
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/001593.html
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/001663.html
 

Chinook

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 31, 2001
Messages
46
Location
southern Oregon coast
The message below was the last thing I heard from them regarding this order... no shipment of the missing items, no further emails, no credit card reimbursement. And all the while they were running ads and even special sales on the same items that they claim were backordered. After one small order then another botched order that finally came thru, and then this one that still has not been resolved. I gave up and will never again be stupid or greedy enough to reward incompetence or dishonesty because of maybe a couple bucks lower prices.

------------from Botach-------------
we just run out of stock the items that you did not receive. as soon as we got the item from the manufacturer. we will send it to you as promptly as we can.

thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Chin ook [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 5:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: inquiry on order #14736 ----- 2nd request


I first sent the below inquiry on 10/12/00
please respond.......

I just received part of my order #14736 by UPS. It says nothing about a backorder for the remaining items. I did not receive the SureFire R60 or the SureFire P61 that I ordered and apparently was charged for.
There were two large padpacks, each with one of the other items on my order in them, and plenty of empty space in the box.
Please let me know the status of the rest of my order.
Thank you
Darrell Collins
 
D

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
ok is it just me or is paranoid9999 starting to look like some one who works for them in some way or something like that ?

your not saying there bad people i don't think they wanted to up set you do you ?

("I can think of at least one online business (which will remain nameless) whose personnel can speak perfect english but are rude and have such *strong* personalities that dealing with them is a exercise in frustration. ")

i am happy you got your stuff and feel bad for those who did not! like me
 

paranoid9999

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20
Location
Hawaii
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cme:
ok is it just me or is paranoid9999 starting to look like some one who works for them in some way or something like that ?

your not saying there bad people i don't think they wanted to up set you do you ?

("I can think of at least one online business (which will remain nameless) whose personnel can speak perfect english but are rude and have such *strong* personalities that dealing with them is a exercise in frustration. ")

i am happy you got your stuff and feel bad for those who did not! like me
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey,

Tried to send you a personal message that would have said, "Guess what, I gave you your single five star rating almost a week ago. No hard feelings, eh." But your "accept personal messages" option is turned off in your preferences. Somehow I thought this gesture would be less meaningful if I posted publicly but I am unable to. In any case, I live in Hawaii, my e-address is listed in my profile. I don't think Botach has "affiliates" in Hawaii. I'm a little bothered that people try so hard to squelch my one positive post. I try hard to be fair and probably this why I posted. But you know what, if you have a problem maybe you should try private email? Maybe we can come to some sort of understanding?
 
D

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
To paranoid9999 - sorry, I lost my head misjudged your origninal posting concerning Botach.
 

paranoid9999

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20
Location
Hawaii
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cme:
To paranoid9999 - sorry, I lost my head misjudged your origninal posting concerning Botach.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem. CME, you are cool. Double cool because you can admit when you are wrong. Believe you me, I was screaming at probably seven people on the phone with my first order at Botach. I really wanted everyone at Botach to die horrible deaths that somehow involved exploding craniums. At that time, if I could throw the concentrated animosity I had for them, I would have nuked all of Los Angeles. Because of my cheap charlie-ness, I tried them again and they have not let me down since. In any case, I have nothing but respect for your opinion and others but I only ask that people respect my opinion and the right to that opinion.
 
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