Dead Eneloop :(

Mr Happy

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I had a set of four Eneloops in a kitchen scale, and today the scale wouldn't turn on. I checked the batteries and three were at 1.25 V, one was at 0.85 V. Uh oh. I wonder how that happened? These are 2006 vintage cells, and maybe one of them just upped and died? I guess even Eneloops might die sometime.

I'm recharging and testing now, so I'll see what the story is...
 

Mr Happy

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Well, I've charged them. The three good ones took about 1550 mAh of charge, while the bad one took 2100 mAh. I think perhaps it has developed high self discharge. I'll monitor the cells now they are charged and see what happens.
 

samgab

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Surely not an eneloop died in action on the watch of the venerable Mr Happy? I await the results of your recovery attempts... :)
 

Norm

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The same thing happened recently to one of my 2006 eneloops, :(
Norm
 

45/70

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If three of the cells were 1.25 volt and one read 0.85 Volts, it's likely that it was reverse charged. eneloops just as traditional NiMh cells, are not tolerant of that. Mario JP is having the same trouble, but in his case, I think it's happening more often than he realizes.

When I use cells in series, I always try to stop the discharge well before I would with cells used in single cell applications, regardless of how well matched the set is. This goes a long way towards preventing a reverse charge situation, and prolongs cell longevity. Mind you, I didn't always do this. Back in the NiCd days, it wasn't good for them either, but I wasn't aware of the problems of reverse charging cells. Then when NiMh cells came out, I learned the hard way, that they are much more sensitive to this type of abuse.:)

Dave
 

Papuga

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Well, I've charged them. The three good ones took about 1550 mAh of charge, while the bad one took 2100 mAh. I think perhaps it has developed high self discharge. I'll monitor the cells now they are charged and see what happens.

very interesting, I have had a few from my original 2006 purchase do exactly the same thing. i am wondering whether we are starting to see the EOL for these 2006 generation cells.

The 6 that I have had do this are showing <65% capacity when you test them on a CBA3. They still charge,but their capacity has diminished greatly. Not bad for a group of cells with 200+ cycles on them.

I will relegate them to my daughter's WII remotes until the are completely done.
 

45/70

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very interesting, I have had a few from my original 2006 purchase do exactly the same thing. i am wondering whether we are starting to see the EOL for these 2006 generation cells.

Do you use these cells in series applications? Just curious. As I alluded to before, in the early days of NiMh, I killed many cells way before their time, simply due to the fact that they are easily abused compared to the NiCd cells I was familiar with. You have to be careful running NiMh cells in series. I'm sure that's why many tools and such still use NiCd, rather than NiMh cells.

Wouldn't a kitchen scale be a very low drain device? Maybe it has a high parasitic draw?

Good point, Sam. Still, with that much voltage difference, I would consider a reverse charging "event" a possibility. It's true that the problem is more pronounced at high discharge rates, but......

Dave
 

Illum

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Wouldn't a kitchen scale be a very low drain device? Maybe it has a high parasitic draw?

if its switch is not the physical rocker/toggle type it could mean the electronic switch does draw power even when off... in the case it'll act like a quartz clock:duh2:
 

Mr Happy

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I think this kitchen scale has almost no drain when switched off. Three of the Eneloops still had 500 mAh of capacity remaining and they had been in the scale for months. The scale is switched on briefly when used and spends most of the time switched off. Last week it worked, this week it didn't. Unless the failed Eneloop was seriously out of balance in its capacity, it is hard to imagine this as a reverse charging event.

In any event, I am watching the Eneloops after recharging and I will see if the bad one holds its charge.
 

Lynx_Arc

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I think this kitchen scale has almost no drain when switched off. Three of the Eneloops still had 500 mAh of capacity remaining and they had been in the scale for months. The scale is switched on briefly when used and spends most of the time switched off. Last week it worked, this week it didn't. Unless the failed Eneloop was seriously out of balance in its capacity, it is hard to imagine this as a reverse charging event.

In any event, I am watching the Eneloops after recharging and I will see if the bad one holds its charge.

At 0.85v it was just weaker than the other batteries and depleted first. If it measured close to 0 or 0, or negative volts that would be a worrisome sign of reverse charging which can damage LSD nimh permanently. I have had several rayovac hybrids reverse charged that lost at least 1/3 if not up to 2/3 of their capacity from being reverse charged by overdischarging.
From what I have seen if the charge time equates to the lower voltage (takes longer to recharge than the other cells) it probably is ok with possible exceptions of perhaps higher self discharge (which I am not sure if it does happen or not).
 

45/70

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At 0.85v it was just weaker than the other batteries and depleted first. If it measured close to 0 or 0, or negative volts that would be a worrisome sign of reverse charging which can damage LSD nimh permanently.......

I think many do not realize just how easy it is to reverse charge a cell. The voltage reading you obtain from a cell after being used in series really doesn't tell you very much, however it can provide a guideline as to whether reverse charging might have occurred.

An example. Within the last week I discharged 4x 10Ah NiMh D cells that I always use in a series application. I discharged the cells in series on my CBA II. Since it is not possible see what the voltage of the individual cells is during discharge, when the discharge is nearing the end, I check to see if the cells are discharging evenly with a DMM.

The discharge was done at 1A (0.1C) and the cutoff set at 4.00 Volts (1.00 Volt/cell). When the "pack" had discharged to about 4.6-4.7 Volts, at which point the plot was well into the "knee", I began checking the voltages of the individual cells under discharge. I immediately noticed that cell #1 was reading lower than the other three, about 0.940V vs. 1.20-1.25V for the other three. Just before the discharge terminated, Cell #1 was at 0.234 Volt, the other three ranged from 1.12-1.18 Volt. The voltage of cell #1 during the final minutes of discharge, obviously, fell much more rapidly than the other three cells. I've noted this before, when discharging NiMh and NiCd cells (or any cell, really). When the voltage of a NiMh, or NiCd cell drops to ~1.00 Volt under discharge, the bottom literally "falls out". In this case cell # 1 came very, very close, to being reverse charged.

What I want to mention, that I think is important, is that the voltage of all 4 cells, within a couple minutes after the discharge, all read 1.20-1.25 Volts OC. Granted my discharge test was at a much higher discharge rate than Mr H's scale likely draws, I still think that it is entirely possible that the one cell that read 0.85 Volt was likely reverse charged. That is especially true with the amount of OC voltage spread observed between the four cells.

My main point being again, that the voltage observed after a discharge really doesn't tell you very much. A cell that has been reverse charged will almost never read a negative voltage after reverse charging has occurred. In fact, the only cells that I have ever seen that measured a negative voltage, were cells that had been left in a device for weeks, or months, that had a parasitic drain. Normally a cell that has been reverse charged will nearly always recover to a positive voltage when the discharge has stopped. I suspect this happened in Mr H's situation, as well.

Dave
 

Lynx_Arc

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I suspect the scale isn't a high current device and if it were to be used till the battery was damaged via reversal it would probably measure less than 0.8v. If it was a heavy current I could see it reversing easier. I only have experience with hybrids reversing and in the cases I have they hit 0v or less than 0.5v measured after trying them the ones that measured 0.8v or higher were not damaged but then none of the devices I use draw more than about 0.75A.
 

Glasstream15

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I use alkalines in my kitchen and bath scales and replace them about every 4 years. I just can't see using rechargeables in that type of device.
 

Mr Happy

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I use alkalines in my kitchen and bath scales and replace them about every 4 years. I just can't see using rechargeables in that type of device.
Alkaline batteries leak. I found a ruined light just recently that I foolishly left with alkaline batteries inside. They spewed their guts and completely destroyed the light. I don't put alkaline batteries inside anything nice if I can help it.
 

Lynx_Arc

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I use alkalines in my kitchen and bath scales and replace them about every 4 years. I just can't see using rechargeables in that type of device.
It only takes one nasty alkaline cell leak to change your mind forever. I still use alkalines in some devices but I monitor them more than I used to for leaks. I just noticed I ditto'd Mr Happy :D
 

samgab

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Yeah, as soon as eneloop lite are released in New Zealand, I'll be getting a bunch of those for my low draw devices: remotes, keyboards, mice, kitchen scales... I think they're the perfect cell for that sort of application. At the moment in NZ, we can only get the standard 1500 cycle eneloops, the Australian market version via **** Smith. But I'm never going to get Alkalines again.
 

czAtlantis

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I just can't see using rechargeables in that type of device.
I use Eneloops lite in low drain devices because
-->Alkalines leak
-->Alkalines are not so super cheap - I can get 2-3 alkalines for the same price as one eneloop lite.
-->It is hard to check remaining capacity of alkalines - Voltage under load, open circuit or short-circuit current don't always tell everything. With rechergeables just charge /discharge and ready to go!

-->I don't want to have 30 alkalines at bad condition but not so bad condition to throw them away in my drawer. It is mostly 1,3V OCV with 1-2A shortcircuit current. I can't rely on them, I can't use them in flashlight but they works fine in wireless keyboard etc...I said myself stop with this and bought bunch of Eneloops Lite and I'm now raplacing them almost everywhere. I hope I did right :thumbsup:
 

beerwax

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+1 on the eneloop lite.
an eneloop lite aaa is 600mah only 20% less than an eneloop aaa at 750mah , and only half the price and possibly more durable.
 
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