Degraded NiMHs charge rate?

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shobhitk

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
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Hi all,
I have read almost everywhere that for NiMHs, 0.5C-1C is the ideal charging current (especially for the higher density ones). previously i used to slow charge them at around 300-400ma. after passage of time the performance started to dip and now am charging them at 0.5C-1C as per the general recommendations. but i have seen that at this stage (ie. degradation), charging rate of 0.5C yields lesser charged cell as compared to 300-400ma charge rates, which gives a more 'fuller' charge.
so my question is what should i do to a degraded NiMH - slow charge or a 0.5C charge? also wouldnt a 0.5C-1C charge rate reduce the number of charge cycles as compared to a 300ma charge rate?

For NiCDs my query is that - whether the MH-C9000's Break-In mode is compatible with these NiCDs or not? if compatible then to what extent?

Thanks
 
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it would be nice if someone could shed light on the above 2 queries...
thnx
 
If your using the (NEWER) maha, charging Faster, is more likly to reach the peak voltage , wherein you wont get the "fuller" charge untill all topping is completed, and even then the topping might not be enough. this is good for the battery actually.

When you charged at 300, and stuff like that, you are less likly to reach the voltage peak, and termination via V-drop itself wont be as easily seen, so you have 2 things going on, and it could charge longer, or overcharge , though its not "good" for the battery.

When you charge at lower currents , the battery CAN handle some overcharge WITHIN the specs for the battery to handle overcharge (usually.1c) THAT isnt as damaging as overcharge that is OVER spec. The current of overcharge handling is the ACTUAL current , not the AVERAGED current. so if you ask me you need to pick one:

FAST with V-drop termination, + newer mahas have peak voltage termination.
or
Slow with the Current NEVER going over the spec overcharge rate when at the end of charge, which some chargers cant even DO, even if they look like they can.
if
you pick medium speed, you need a charger that will still terminate properly within the speed it is going, like when the voltage stops going up (instead of it going back down again)
the parameters that are "Best" are the ones given to you BECAUSE of how the charger itself works, they dont always translate to all other chargers, that cant even DO those things.

Then when you "Form" up the chemicals with fast(er) charging rates , they seem to be more akin to discharging faster, BUT those rates dont need to be continual, wherein it heats up the battery casing the chemicals to burn up, it could potentially be pulsed. The cells certannly dont want to be in overcharge long because at that Rate, it is over the overcharge capability for the cell. so an analisis of the Fast FORMING, is done by the analisis of the ACTUAL current, pulsed or not, the current rate that is actual is what is slapping the chemicals back into place. so potentially you can still get fast forming with an Averaged high current pulse.

What your asking, comes only with WHAT CHARGER, and what you need to know, comes with HOW the things act under different voltages and currents.
If you translate the info to a completly different charger, it will no longer be usefull, there are MANY tricks and rates, and the pulse vrses current control, termination style, and all of that stuff that changes everything.

some of the decline in preformance might be different things
not fully charged (good for the battery bad for extreme capacity) Reaches peak voltage, terminates early due to tight v-drop, battery overheated.
Overcharged (good for the capacity bad for the battery) Rate to slow for termination detection, termination detection set to high.
the cell itself being high self discharge
the cell itself being junk
the cell itself suffering from overcharge
the cell itself just being general junk (ok that was in there twice because it happens more often 🙂

so many things so little time, if you put a METER on this stuff, even just a volt meter, you will KNOW sooooooo much more about it, by viewing the current (ammeter) and its pulses (scope) on both charge and topping you will know the rest.

there is only 6-7 different types of charge termination that are even possible, 3-4 of which are ever even used in these consumer chargers, know those 3 or 4 and then you know everything.

it is very hard to do some PAT stock answer to questions, when you get the answer and they dont translate to the exact charger your using this week, or the exact battery and the way it is acting. the best route around that is to just a FEW times, see what the battery and charger is acting like.

This 9000 charger has only 3 things (for the human to comprehend) wherby it terminates or slows down, those 3 KEYS to how it terminates , are the ONE piece of information you need to know about every battery you put into it, and how that battery will react. . . that and doing a voltage check while running.
max voltage
peak voltage before termination or slowdown
actual current used + how the current is reduced (pulsed or current control) vrses what a lcd display shows you
peak temperature it balks at , and how it restarts

rate your battery can be safely overcharged
rate your battery will V-drop on overcharge
general actual capacity of the battery
rate it hits any peak voltages
general resistance factors (even if they are from the above info and loose)
then adjust all that when the battery goes bad.

if you know all that stuff, which really isnt that MUCh stuff, you can Figure out logically WHY and WHAT occured during each of the charge rates you used. on whatever charger with whatever battery. Plus by knowing what is overcharge, and what is terrible overcharge, for the battery, you can determine what kind of damage you want to do to the battery 🙂 vrses what kind of charge you want it to have.
 
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...I have read almost everywhere that for NiMHs, 0.5C-1C is the ideal charging current (especially for the higher density ones). previously i used to slow charge them at around 300-400ma. after passage of time the performance started to dip and now am charging them at 0.5C-1C as per the general recommendations. but i have seen that at this stage (ie. degradation), charging rate of 0.5C yields lesser charged cell as compared to 300-400ma charge rates, which gives a more 'fuller' charge.
so my question is what should i do to a degraded NiMH - slow charge or a 0.5C charge? also wouldnt a 0.5C-1C charge rate reduce the number of charge cycles as compared to a 300ma charge rate?
Please CLICK on my Sig Line LINK and read the posts in the first section.

Briefly, IMO, you're attempting to get a RE-explanation for something like Crystal Size vs Charging Rate vs Cell Stability vs State of Charge.

As I've posted before, and VidPro has (somewhat) stated:
...it is very hard to do some PAT stock answer to questions, when you get the answer and they dont translate to the exact charger your using this week, or the exact battery and the way it is acting. the best route around that is to just a FEW times, see what the battery and charger is acting like...
STOP looking for 'fast-and-easy' Rules and START gathering 'slow-and-hard' Knowledge.

Once you UNDERSTAND what SHOULD happen, you can then adjust your actions to attempt to achieve the results you desire.
 
it would be nice if someone could shed light on the above 2 queries...
thnx
IMHO, the questions you're asking don't have simple "Yes/No" answers, but are more along the lines of "It depends...".

Also, IMHO, they have already been "Asked-and-Answered" in various versions over the years and are available for the SEARCHING in the CPF Archives.

Thus, as 45/70 recently suggested to another Newbie in another thread, why don't you invest some of your time reading a few of the suggested LINKs and/or FAQs? 😕

Finally, again IMHO, my Sig Line LINK contains LOTs of good info. :twothumbs I was a Newbie last winter and I spent HOURS upon HOURS, WEEK after WEEK reading the CPF Archives :candle:. Instead of creating personal thread Subscriptions of my 'journey', I decided to create a FAQ (i.e. public thread LINKs).

I have to agree. What TTA is trying to do helps out quite a bit. I saw a number of things I didn't notice before. -- And I've been reading CPF-batteries for over a year or so!

I think the way he's organizing the information is quite good. Almost exceptional, if I might say so myself.

Keep up the good work! Don't let any naysayers stop ya!

:xyxgun:
Take a look - see if they help - let me know... 😉 :popcorn:
 
VidPro: thanks for the opinions...am trying to study them carefully.

TakeTheActive: TTA's answers to rechargeable batteries are no doubt extremely helpful and i keep referring to them every now and then. previously i was only on normal time-out termination type chargers....they were doing fairly good job but c9000 is a complete laboratory for nimhs and nicds and some time is needed to get to know how it exactly works.

this forum and u guys are very helpful in shedding light on these tricky situations....thanks.
 
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