Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 8/27/2010 (Newer Info Added)

LuxLuthor

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

I did two sets of bulbs of each. Lux and flash points were very very close. Remember there is very little resistance (29 mOhm) in this setup.

First 3853-L flashed going slowly (I use coarse knob to go to 6.0V, then switch over to fine tune voltage knob) between 8.0 & 8.1 which surprised me. So I did the 2nd test even more carefully, and as soon as it went over 8.1V it flashed too. I run this linear (vs. switching) power supply through an APC UPS, so the delivered power should have been smooth.

I do have two more 3853 dual bulb packages, so I could check a 3rd without any pauses for Lux measurements...just slowly ramping up until it flashes. Hold on....I can do this now.

Edit: OK, here are more results for you to digest:


Since I didn't plan on using my Low bulbs, I just ran another new 3854-L & 3853-L slowly but continuously (after using coarse knob to move up to about 6.0V) with fine adjusting voltage knob to find flash points.
3854-L Flashed at 9.9V
3853-L Flashed just over 8.8V
When I take the Lux readings, there is about a 10-15 second pause at each voltage setting while I look & write LUX, Amps, & Temp readings. So while this repeat rampup just now shows it as a higher flash point, it only took about 10-15 sec to do this last test...so my guess is the bulb life is catastrophically & proportionately lowered as 3853-L overdrives above 7.2V, and my Lux delayed readings cascaded the stress.

Of note was the higher 3854-L flash point, and its closer correlation to OP posted chart (with Lux/Amp/Temp measuring delays) flash point of 9.7V--especially when you consider that the 3854-L has a default 6.0V and 3853-L a 7.2V default.

Certainly, a case could be made that all three of my 3853-L were from a bad manufacturer lot, but these are my observations.
 
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lctorana

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

It does seem to suggest that the 3853L, despite the packaging and marketing, is a 6V bulb that is normally overdriven in 7.2V service, not a true 7.2V bulb.

Surprising that the overdrive capabilities are so much less than the 3854L. This suggests that it doesn't possess the long-life characteristics of the 3854L either.

Still, it's a reasonable substitute for either the HPR71 or the 3854L for 6-cell use.

Thanks for the tests, as usual.

Last night, I graphed the Lux-vs-Volt curves for all 5 PR bulbs - is that of interest to anyone?
 

LuxLuthor

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Last night, I graphed the Lux-vs-Volt curves for all 5 PR bulbs - is that of interest to anyone?

Did you put them all on the same graph to view simultaneously? That would be interesting to see what that looks like. I'm not an Excel whizz, and can see how to do graphs within each spreadsheet, but not sure how to combine 5 different sets of data into a single grapsh.
 

lctorana

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

LuxLuthor said:
Did you put them all on the same graph to view simultaneously?
Yes.

Oh, and speaking of Excel manipulations, I have been tracking the Claimed Lumen : Measured Lux ratios since you started.

As the sample size grows, the variance shrinks, and I can now say with more than 95% confidence that this ratio is 10.4.

So if you measure 100 lux, that's 1040 lumens. Give or take about 4%.
 
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lctorana

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Here 'tis:
PR.jpg
 

LuxLuthor

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Yes.

Oh, and speaking of Excel manipulations, I have been tracking the Claimed Lumen : Measured Lux ratios since you started.

As the sample size grows, the variance shrinks, and I can now say with more than 95% confidence that this ratio is 10.4.

So if you measure 100 lux, that's 1040 lumens. Give or take about 4%.

WoW! No kidding! Now that's also a useful rule of thumb. I have each bulb on its own sheet, which is getting to be a boatload of files. Regretfully I'm not an Excel whizz.

I love that graph. Do you use some other graphing program?
 

lctorana

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

I have used many graphing programs over the years, but prefer native Excel. It's handy at work because you can combine data storage with quite sophisticated VB code (e.g. macros) and generate Excel charts on-the-fly in the code. Excel, since release 5, has had good graphing capability.

The other thing about graphing the lux-vs-volts curve of every bulb is that I can calculate the hotrating exponent.

It varies wildly, but not with voltage, current, wattage, fill gas or anything else I can think of. But what I can say it is mostly around the 2.9 to 3 mark, not 3.5. Not one single bulb you have tested has been anywhere near 3.5.

I can post more about the statistical methods involved in this analysis, but I bet nobody's interested...
 

sami_voodoo

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

The other thing about graphing the lux-vs-volts curve of every bulb is that I can calculate the hotrating exponent.

It varies wildly, but not with voltage, current, wattage, fill gas or anything else I can think of. But what I can say it is mostly around the 2.9 to 3 mark, not 3.5. Not one single bulb you have tested has been anywhere near 3.5.

Maybe it's already been discussed, but has anyone tried relating filament length and wire diameter to the lumens vs. volts relation? That is to say, bring it down to the basic physics. Of course filament material maybe a very important unknown variable.
 

LuxLuthor

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

A silence overcomes the crowd, anticipation is the feeling of the moment and it's thick in the air.

As long as I don't notice any enexpected loads in my pants, I think we are in good shape.
 

LuxLuthor

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Maybe it's already been discussed, but has anyone tried relating filament length and wire diameter to the lumens vs. volts relation? That is to say, bring it down to the basic physics. Of course filament material maybe a very important unknown variable.

Well it filament lengh, thickness, configuration is a factor, but I'm convinced that gas fill, pressure, and alloy compositions are a complex witches brew of variables. Then you have things like the IRC coated bulbs introducing a whole other wild card.

One thing I have not mentioned in a while, which this girly man 3853-L bulb reminds me about is that certain bulbs have dramatic Lux drop off at certain overdrive levels. So if a 7V xxx bulb puts out 150 Lux at 8 volts, that can drop off after 30 mins, so that even though it doesn't flash for 3 hours later, the lumen outputs piddles away like an old man with an enlarged prostate.
 

lctorana

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Well it filament lengh, thickness, configuration is a factor, but I'm convinced that gas fill, pressure, and alloy compositions are a complex witches brew of variables. Then you have things like the IRC coated bulbs introducing a whole other wild card.
None of which are measureable.

This is why I advocate the simple use of curve-fitting to the third power of the voltage rise. A nice, simple cubic spline approach, and accurate to at least a first approximation.
 

petrev

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Hi Lux


My Favourite Bulbs
LuxLuthor-LUX vs Vbulb
+Current at ~ 10Hr life
graph122.gif

Excel + PSP6

and

Do You Concur ? ? ?
My best guess for Regulator settings for Vlow - set as CellVlow x Cells
Hi

Thanks for the input to my guide chart - JM and Lux

Corrected and updated with reference to JM and LL comments
abatterylow3.gif



Cheers
Pete
 
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ElectronGuru

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

I have each bulb on its own sheet, which is getting to be a boatload of files. Regretfully I'm not an Excel whizz.

Starting with a bit of vocab, a Workbook is the largest Excel unit, a computer file composed of any number of sheets. A Worksheet is the part inside the file/book that contains the cells/grid. Have a read through here, with particular attention to the tab system along the bottom (Sheet1, Sheet2, Sheet3):



You can copy/move all of your 1-workbook with 1-worksheet bulb profiles so its 1-workbook, many-worksheets. Then everything will be in one big file. Or better yet, group them by brand:

workbook / worksheets
WA / 1111, 1331, 1185, etc
Osram / 64250, 64430, 64275, etc
Pelican / 3854H, 3853H, etc
Carley / 1057, etc
Other /​


Then ship the finished books over to lctorana for high level anlysis :whistle:


Pete, this graph is very easy to ready. The 64633 looks sick!
 
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LuxLuthor

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Hi Lux



Do You Concur ? ? ?
My best guess for Regulator settings for Vlow - set as CellVlow x Cells
abatterylow2.gif


Cheers
Pete

Pete, you have two numbers in the Vlow row. I would pick the top one for low voltage (probably 3.3V for both Li-Ion and Li-Mn) regulator setting, as when they are in series, some will drift lower than others, and having a bit higher than the bleeding edge gives a bit more protection for the 'low ball hitters.'
 

petrev

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Pete, you have two numbers in the Vlow row. I would pick the top one for low voltage (probably 3.3V for both Li-Ion and Li-Mn) regulator setting, as when they are in series, some will drift lower than others, and having a bit higher than the bleeding edge gives a bit more protection for the 'low ball hitters.'

Hi Lux

Yep - 2 numbers . . . Upper and Lower limits.

Pick the high one for protection in multi cell configs and to be sure in all configs, the lower value in 1 or 2 cell configs was my thought. People will no doubt make their own decisions but I thought it handy to have some sort of a guide.

Cheers
Pete
 

petrev

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

. . .

Then ship the finished books over to lctorana for high level anlysis :whistle:


Pete, this graph is very easy to ready. The 64633 looks sick!


Hi EG

64633 will be the bomb with a PhD regulator :D

IRCs are good for lower current apps - no need for special switches and work with LIon C-Cells.

64623 + 64625 are just great and the 64458 has the sweetest hot-spot with it's axial filament :cool:

Hope to see some amazing analysis and graphs when an Excel master gets hold of the original data.

Cheers
Pete
 

ElectronGuru

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Here's a photo study of both bulbs. Blue is the 7.2v 3853L and red is the 6.0v 3854L. The 3853L has angled (not parallel) supports and looks cheaply made overall. I'm not sure which bulb came first but it looks like the guys Pelican hired didn't do nearly as good a job hitting the specification:


13ym07k.jpg
 

LuxLuthor

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Now THOSE are some primo closeup views!!! I remember another interesting thing. All the 3853-L melted on one of the sides as it attached to the post, whereas the 3854L melted in the middle of the coil. I would take pix, but I threw them in the trash, and then this morning emptied two packages of partially melted bacon grease which they are somewhere in the middle of.

It seems funny that everyone is focussed on the 3853-L, rather than the 3853-H which I thought was the main bulb of interest, and how it fared vs. 3854-H. I never even thought about using the Low bulbs, and only tested them because they were in the packs. :crackup:

I wonder if any of these bulb manufacturers have any idea how much we push and psychoanalyze their bulbs here at CPF! I'm sure their engineers would at least appreciate our enthusiasm.
 

petrev

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Hi

Thanks for the input to my guide chart - JM and Lux and AlanB

Corrected and updated with reference to JM, LL and AlanB comments
abatterylow3.gif

Thanks Lux
Posted a revised Guide

Cheers
Pete
 
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^^Nova^^

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Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 5/15/09 (Newer Info Added)

Here 'tis:
PR.jpg
Wow, that is a really cool graph.

What would be really useful is to see similar bulbs grouped by output/voltage. This would make it really easy to compare bulbs for a given application.

Some groups that come to mind - sub 800-900 lumens, 1000 to 2000 lumens, over 2000 lumen; then voltage groups - 6v bulbs, 12v bulbs etc.

Voltage would be useful as it allows someone to easily see the options for something like 2x liIon bulbs (with the new regulators there are now more options without flashing bulbs).

Really great work lctorana. :twothumbs

Cheers,
Nova
 
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