Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 8/27/2010 (Newer Info Added)

lctorana

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
2,123
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)

Currently working on the current - lux relationship, which is looking even more promising!

After a very promising-looking start, the lux-as-a-function-of-current relationship turned out to have even more spread as the voltage one.

Back to the drawing-board. For the statistically minded, I can report that the lux appears to rise with the fifth power of the current rise - give or take a LOT. There is so much uncertainty in this data that I cannot use it for any predictive modelling.

It was worth a try.
 

LuxLuthor

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
10,654
Location
MS
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)

After a very promising-looking start, the lux-as-a-function-of-current relationship turned out to have even more spread as the voltage one.

Back to the drawing-board. For the statistically minded, I can report that the lux appears to rise with the fifth power of the current rise - give or take a LOT. There is so much uncertainty in this data that I cannot use it for any predictive modelling.

It was worth a try.

You need to insert Planck's Constant into your formulas. :devil:
 

EvilLithiumMan

Enlightened
Joined
Nov 20, 2003
Messages
613
Location
Chula Vista, CA
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)

After a very promising-looking start, the lux-as-a-function-of-current relationship turned out to have even more spread as the voltage one.

Back to the drawing-board. For the statistically minded, I can report that the lux appears to rise with the fifth power of the current rise - give or take a LOT. There is so much uncertainty in this data that I cannot use it for any predictive modelling.

It was worth a try.

Efficacy is how efficient a lamp is at producing visible light vs. heat. IE - a 20 watt bulb with an efficacy of 20(%) is converting 4 watts of that power to visible light, the remaining 16 watts being given off as heat. Welch Allyn halogen lamps range from the single digits (8-9%) to just over 30% for the 1166 lamp.

http://www.walamp.com/lpd/webstore/...71&cart=11916866532825259&divnum=2&startat=31

That's a 3 to 1 ratio and without factoring it in, it's why (as you have noted)
it is virtually impossible to correlate power to lux.
 

RoyJ

Enlightened
Joined
Feb 19, 2006
Messages
295
Location
Vancouver, BC, White North
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)

Efficacy is how efficient a lamp is at producing visible light vs. heat. IE - a 20 watt bulb with an efficacy of 20(%) is converting 4 watts of that power to visible light, the remaining 16 watts being given off as heat. Welch Allyn halogen lamps range from the single digits (8-9%) to just over 30% for the 1166 lamp.

http://www.walamp.com/lpd/webstore/...71&cart=11916866532825259&divnum=2&startat=31

That's a 3 to 1 ratio and without factoring it in, it's why (as you have noted)
it is virtually impossible to correlate power to lux.

You get a much stronger correlation when you throw in the color temp facotor in there: i.e. the lumens output as a function of power consumption @ a given color temp becomes very comparable.

We all know this experimentally of course - the harder you drive a filament closer to its melting point, the higher efficiency (and lower life) you obtain. It'll be interesting to include that factor in a formula though.
 

lctorana

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
2,123
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)

Perhaps in my efforts at economy of words in my last post, I misled the witnesses.

I wasn't graphing Lux vs Power - we all know that varies with bulb efficiency, but rather the pro-rata lux increase as a function of the pro-rata current increase, to attempt to learn a new hotrater exponent.

Doubtless there are many other factors involved, but the point of this, or any hotrater exercise is to arrive at a rule-of-thumb for lux/lumens after overdrive.

I'm not keen on colour temperature as a hotrater variable, even if it is a significant contributing factor, simply because I know of no reliable, repeatable and objective way of measuring it.

At this stage, and as I posted above, the best I can suggest is to reduce the 3.5 voltage exponent to 3. Still not accurate, but closer to the observed data.

Please keep the suggestions coming.
 
Last edited:

LuxLuthor

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
10,654
Location
MS
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

OK, got new bulbs posted - All bulbs now tested (still have to post Carley 809 & 1057 results from Litho)
  • WA-1160 (5V 17W) -- Thanks Lips!!!
  • Osram 64432 (IRC 12V 35W) - Uses latest AWR Hotrater Spreadsheet Lumen Prediction formula
  • Osram 64633 (15V 150W) -- Thanks sylathnie !!!
Ictorana, I used the more complex "S" curve formula which I have in the latest Hotrater spreadsheet for the IRC-35W bulb for predicted Lumens. You can see how it compares to other results.
 
Last edited:

rizky_p

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Messages
1,440
Location
13th Colony
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

finally the bulb that i've been waiting , IRC 35 watt and 633 :)

Lord! that IRC 35 is an excellent hotwire bulb.
and i am quite surprised that 633 can be pushed that far. Since i have been using it in my 623 setup...The tungsten wire is a bit bigger compared to 623's though!

Lux how white is the IRC35 before flashing? compares to 623 maybe?
 

LuxLuthor

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
10,654
Location
MS
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

The IRC bulbs are the "Cadillac" of incan bulbs....although I'm not sure that car brand's reputation is all that it used to be. They are beautiful bulbs, and the best place to get them is www.svetila.com which I have ordered from at least 7 times.

Just make sure you limit your quantity to between 9 - 10, beyond which your shipping rate triples from $15.75 to $45.43 once you go over a threshold number....you'll see the shipping price change.
 

Timaxe

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
42
Location
ID
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

Ictorana, I posted some thoughts on similar things on page 4 while searching for an exponent and my conclusion was that a single number as an exponent, especially applied to voltage, just won't work very well given that formula. We need something else.

Have a look at https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/179748&page=4#post2345381 to see that even for a single bulb, the exponent changes depending on overdrive.

I'm thinking that we may need to know more about the bulbs under test...such as the filament size. But I haven't figured out if LuxLuthor's testing method allows us to ignore the filament size of the bulb under consideration, or if it causes other unwanted trends in the data that we need to account for. I'm currently not sure how this data would correlate with what has already been collected, but the result of that type of study could help us infer the effects of filament size on LuxLuthor's tests so we can look at the data better. If anyone knows, please post something about this topic that uses some of LuxLuthor's collected data. It would at least save me time looking at it.

And given the wide range of technologies employed by different bulbs...I see a monster of an equation if we want to be able to use the same formula for all incan bulb types, from colored christmas lights to hundred watt projector bulbs... :candle:
 

LuxLuthor

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
10,654
Location
MS
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

Now that I figured out how to accurately measure milliohms, I posted a new pix in first post that gives milliohm losses in each bulb holder setup.
 

mdocod

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
7,544
Location
COLORado spRINGs
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 2/21/08 (Info Added)

interesting, I was just studying the charts and noticed that the "^3.5" for re-rating that we have often used for estimating is probably very rarely true, and then did a little reading through the thread and found I am not the only person to realize this... In studying the charts, it appears that this exponent can be anything from about 2.6-3.4 depending on the bulb. I remember having a discussion with Mark over at LumensFactory, he told me that for the compact xenons he deals with, it's closer to ~3.3 give or take. Which seems about right, I'm trying to remember the explanation, something to due with the higher pressure of the fill gas reduces the "overdrive-exponent."
 

Mr Happy

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
5,390
Location
Southern California
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

On bulb re-rating, there are different factors at work.

In terms of plain power consumption, it goes up with the square of the voltage. So if you increase the voltage by 1.1 (or 10%), you will increase the power by 1.21 (21%).

Playing against that slightly is the increased filament resistance from the higher temperature. But at bulb working temperatures I think this effect is small and can be ignored.

Another thing the higher filament temperature does is shift the radiation spectrum to shorter wavelengths, out of the infra-red (heat) region and into the visible light region. So this gives relatively more light compared to the increase in power, as you get more visible lumens and fewer infra-red lumens.

The shifting of the emission spectrum is probably the main thing that increases the power law from ^2 to around ^3.

Working against the increase in filament temperature is heat loss by conduction. In small high pressure xenon bulbs, the xenon gas conducts heat away from the filament to the glass bulb and the surroundings. The heat conducted away can't be radiated and is energy lost. This causes a reduction in bulb efficiency and will reduce the power law a bit compared to larger bulbs with lower pressure gas fills.
 

mdocod

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
7,544
Location
COLORado spRINGs
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

sounds perfectly logical to me :)

On another note:
Have you (LuxLuthor) or anyone experimented with a 64607?

It comes in a MR-16, but I wonder if there is a bare bulb equivalent sold somewhere... It's an 8V, 50W, 50 hour bulb. I have one on order supposed to show up tomorrow. I'm planning to test it on 8 rested eneloops and see how it looks. I'm not sure what kind of beam it's going to have, but I am optimistic, with any luck it will be something useful. If the beam pattern is good, then this might be a way to build an ROP-high killer for similar price :)
 

LuxLuthor

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
10,654
Location
MS
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

On bulb re-rating, there are different factors at work.

In terms of plain power consumption, it goes up with the square of the voltage. So if you increase the voltage by 1.1 (or 10%), you will increase the power by 1.21 (21%).

Playing against that slightly is the increased filament resistance from the higher temperature. But at bulb working temperatures I think this effect is small and can be ignored.

Another thing the higher filament temperature does is shift the radiation spectrum to shorter wavelengths, out of the infra-red (heat) region and into the visible light region. So this gives relatively more light compared to the increase in power, as you get more visible lumens and fewer infra-red lumens.

The shifting of the emission spectrum is probably the main thing that increases the power law from ^2 to around ^3.

Working against the increase in filament temperature is heat loss by conduction. In small high pressure xenon bulbs, the xenon gas conducts heat away from the filament to the glass bulb and the surroundings. The heat conducted away can't be radiated and is energy lost. This causes a reduction in bulb efficiency and will reduce the power law a bit compared to larger bulbs with lower pressure gas fills.

I am guessing there is a myriad of additional factors that are involved...off the top of my head:
  • Accuracy of default specifications that we use as foundation in overdrive tests. (Huge factor in some cases)
  • Fluctuation from one company's engineering & manufacturing standards & QC to another brand
  • Within a specific company, the variations in assembly, component QC, manufacturing, by location, age of facility & equipment
  • Personnel training and methods used in all phases of a bulb's design & manufacturing
  • Variations in batch runs
  • Design changes over time for a given model within the same company
  • Purity, type, and concentrations of gas in bulb envelope
  • Purity & quality control of filament, glass, ceramic components,
  • Component shapes, thickness, coatings
  • The age/stress (degree of overdrive & run time) before performance is evaluated
  • Ambient temperature, barometric pressure
  • Heat transfer efficiency (i.e. my open air destructive tests vs. enclosed reflector-glass lens space), etc.
  • Care, transport, packaging, storage, age of bulbs after leaving factory.
I mention some of these factors because I have three different boxes of a particular Osram bulb 64430 model. One box style has a percentage of glass stem fractures/visible cracks around bipins while still in sealed plastic wrapper. Another Osram brand 64430 box style has dramatically better Lux performance and overdrive voltage tolerance, and slight variations in measured amp at a given voltage. The 3rd box outputs more Lux at specific voltages, but flashes at lower voltage. I tested about a dozen of these bulbs before determining that these were consistent within Osram brand of 64430 box style.

Then there are Tungsram version of 64430, and a Chinese generic version that is 2-3 times as expensive, sold by Top Bulb that had a preposterous default 650L rating that I estimate should have been more like 1/3 of their value --down to a more realistic 230L at 6V.

Remember, people are taking the given default rated values to plug into the Hotrater...and some of those ratings are obviously pulled out of thin air....and trying to figure the corret Hotrater exponent from them.

Without any hesitation, and by far the and most impressive design, manufacturing, and consistently high quality bulbs are the Osram IRC 35, 50, 65W bulbs.

Next, I would put the Philips 5761 & most of the WA bulbs....but I am hesitant about the WA only because they are not in any kind of sealed or labeled container/box. Almost all of us have obtained our WA bulbs from Litho123, and it's hard to be sure of exactly what you are getting & specific details when only provided with hand labeled plastic envelopes. I'm not saying anything negative about Litho, rather it is just not the same "standard" as getting an individual bulb in a sealed envelope/box.
 
Last edited:

Mr Happy

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
5,390
Location
Southern California
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

... myriad of additional factors ... three different boxes ...
Wow. You really make bulb buying sound like a bit of a lottery :D

When you buy bulbs by the box load, I have to think you are a bit serious about this flashlight thing... :grin2:
 

LuxLuthor

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
10,654
Location
MS
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

LOL! I make sure it remains a fun hobby....but my main point is not to disparage my beloved incans, rather to underscore what I believe is the near futility in searching for the "Holy Grail of Hotrater Lumen Overdrive Rating Exponent."

Big thanks to Techjunkie who found this bulb from a company I had not tried before....Hikari. He scored some of them on eBay which has the darker blue box. I then scored a bunch from another bulb company I had not ordered from because their web search system if you don't have a part number is abysmal. Bulbtronics #JC5033

What is so great about this bulb? It costs 87 cents, and takes some unimagineable abuse before buckling under. It is a 12V 35W G4 bulb rated at 650 bulb lumens, 2,000hr life. Here it is at Bulbconnection for $2.00

I'll post the charts after I get some sleep....but default 12V 650L gave 50 Lux....and this little sucker didn't flash until I got up to 22.5V and 315 Lux before flashing at 22.8V. Here's some eye candy of these and a few others.

 

Wattnot

Enlightened
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
976
Location
Lake Norman, NC
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

I would like to volunteer a new 1185 if one of you needs it for a test. It only has a few minutes of use but I did a home-made potting job with JB Weld. I un-potted it after buying a socket but could not get the JB Weld off!!

So it would make an excellent test subject as it still works and the leads are accessible.

mdocod and LuxLuthor get first crack.

:thumbsup:


EDIT: PM me if anyone wants this. I'm unsubscribing now.
 
Last edited:

LuxLuthor

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
10,654
Location
MS
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

I would like to volunteer a new 1185 if one of you needs it for a test. It only has a few minutes of use but I did a home-made potting job with JB Weld. I un-potted it after buying a socket but could not get the JB Weld off!!

So it would make an excellent test subject as it still works and the leads are accessible.

mdocod and LuxLuthor get first crack.

:thumbsup:

Ummm.....I already tested an 1185...and I only test brand new bulbs.
 

Fulgeo

Enlightened
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
467
Location
Michigan USA
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

Still a great thread. I check it every day. Ordered a bunch of lamps from http://www.bulbconnection.com/ a while back. In the order I picked up a few Osram 64440. This one http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewItem/bcrw/itmid/1494/oc/64440/item.html. When I examine the lamp it has the more common horizontal filament. I tend to be more of a fan of the tubular or axial filaments. Like what is found in the Osram 62138. I am wondering if this one http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewItem/bcrw/itmid/2381/oc/64440S/item.html is of the tubular/axial filament type. It is specified as 64440S. Also was wondering if all the Osram IRC lamps are of the tubular/axial filament type?

As a side note I placed a call to the bulbconnection a while back and talked to one of their sales types. I asked them if they carry Welch Allyn bulbs. They said no but they were thinking about it based on requests. I replied that I was formally requesting they carry the WA1111 and WA1185 lamp. I also explained what we CPFs were doing out here. In retrospec I should have asked about a CPF discount at the same time. Anyway just went to their page and notice they are now carring the WA1111 and WA1185 lamp. Not saying it was all about me just wanted to share the info;)

Happy Modding and keep that info coming in.
 
Last edited:

TKO

Enlightened
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
204
Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 3/11/08 (Info Added)

Fulgeo,


The "S" is axial:

produktbild_gross.gif



The IRC bulb is, also:

64440.jpg
 
Top