Don't costly CR123 reduce the use/value of flashlights?
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was.lost.but.now.found
Enlightened
To each their own. For some who want the absolute most energy possible for max runtime, the choice clearly goes to primaries (CR123). For the more econimical fellow who always wants a fresh battery and can compromise a little on runtime, rechargeables make sense (that is RCR123).
The debate has fought over and over for 123 form vs. AA and I don't see there ever being a winner. You cannot with a straight face argue primary CR123 vs. primary (alkaline) AA, it just does not compute. No one on this forum actually believes you can use alkaline batteries in a high end flashlight and get any kind of respectable performance. ANY AA form flashlight SHOULD always be used with Energizer Lithium (1.8V) or NiMH as a first consideration.
You can try to make an argument for primary CR123 vs. secondary AA (which is a little closer comparison in terms of watt hours in a high drain device), but they you are still not comparing on an even playing field.
The debate has fought over and over for 123 form vs. AA and I don't see there ever being a winner. You cannot with a straight face argue primary CR123 vs. primary (alkaline) AA, it just does not compute. No one on this forum actually believes you can use alkaline batteries in a high end flashlight and get any kind of respectable performance. ANY AA form flashlight SHOULD always be used with Energizer Lithium (1.8V) or NiMH as a first consideration.
You can try to make an argument for primary CR123 vs. secondary AA (which is a little closer comparison in terms of watt hours in a high drain device), but they you are still not comparing on an even playing field.
Dark Laser
Newly Enlightened
It always depends...CR123s have their place, as do Alkalines. They both have (dis)advantages that are relevant in a particular situation.
EDIT: was.lost.but.now.found is completely right.
EDIT: was.lost.but.now.found is completely right.
For my uses CR123s work fine.Purchased online in bulk they aren't prohibitavely expensive.Even in the lights I have that are AA I am loathe to use alkalines that may leak and lithium AAs are as expensive as CR123s.
Rechargables have thier place, especially in constant use lights but there are drawbacks there too.Even rechargable batteries will fail eventually and in some cases they are fairly easy to ruin.Getting a good quality charger and batteries can be expensive in its own right.
Rechargables have thier place, especially in constant use lights but there are drawbacks there too.Even rechargable batteries will fail eventually and in some cases they are fairly easy to ruin.Getting a good quality charger and batteries can be expensive in its own right.
etc
Flashlight Enthusiast
They increase the use / value of lites.
I hardly ever use disposable cells in any platform... With AAs, for a long time I used NiMh.
When I moved to 123's, I started using Li-Io 18650 cells, which are superior to NiMH. More compact, more power, and yes demanding - needing more attention, no discharge / overcharge situations. I have some premium ones and also AW cells and also a ton from old laptop cells packs. With 1x18650 I can use any cell, protected or not.
But for serious business, I would switch to 123s.
2x123 or 1x18650 in Surefire 6P size is the ultimate compact EDC lite, more compact than 2xAA and more power.
3x123 holds much more power than 2xAA, almost as compact and easier to hold. 2xAA is too thin.
There is really no reason to use AA Alkalines at all, ever, haven't used them in years except in remote controls. Same thing for Mag D lites, just laying around unused. I guess the only thing I would use them for is when I need lots of throw.
Now a lite that can take any kind of cell, use a FiveMega body like 3x123 and a low powered P60 drop in module like M60LL and you can use:
2x18500
1x18650 with spacer
3x123
2xAA of any chemistry
Brightness will vary based on the cells installed, so yes you can have it all. Use either 123s or AA (NiMH or Alks or Lith) in the same lite.
I hardly ever use disposable cells in any platform... With AAs, for a long time I used NiMh.
When I moved to 123's, I started using Li-Io 18650 cells, which are superior to NiMH. More compact, more power, and yes demanding - needing more attention, no discharge / overcharge situations. I have some premium ones and also AW cells and also a ton from old laptop cells packs. With 1x18650 I can use any cell, protected or not.
But for serious business, I would switch to 123s.
2x123 or 1x18650 in Surefire 6P size is the ultimate compact EDC lite, more compact than 2xAA and more power.
3x123 holds much more power than 2xAA, almost as compact and easier to hold. 2xAA is too thin.
There is really no reason to use AA Alkalines at all, ever, haven't used them in years except in remote controls. Same thing for Mag D lites, just laying around unused. I guess the only thing I would use them for is when I need lots of throw.
Now a lite that can take any kind of cell, use a FiveMega body like 3x123 and a low powered P60 drop in module like M60LL and you can use:
2x18500
1x18650 with spacer
3x123
2xAA of any chemistry
Brightness will vary based on the cells installed, so yes you can have it all. Use either 123s or AA (NiMH or Alks or Lith) in the same lite.
L91's will trump both.
You definitely have a point here. I don't use my Fenix P1D and Surefire L1 Lumamax much, just because they can't handle the higher voltage of Li-ion rechargeables... I now ONLY buy two cell lights, these can handle the higher voltages... even the ones with incandescent bulbs, just replace that P60 with a P90 
Timmo.
Timmo.
Are 123 primary cells a cost problem? No! It's all a matter of application. I run Mini-mags with old 3 x 5mm LED conversions on alkalines for the grandkids play with. They tend to leave them on. No sense wasting an expensive battery or killing a rechargable. Most lights need high current capable batteries for maximum output; NiMH, lithium primary of lithium rechargable cells. If I'm going to use a light a lot, work or play, I'll pick an AA Quark or Zebra and drop in some Enloops. I want the most reliable lights possible for emergency applications. These lights may sit for months at a time in the heat or cold without use. I don't want self discharge or corrosion. For these I want lithium primary cells. I can get quality 123s for less than the cost of Energizer L91s, so my emergency lights are C-series Surefires with twist switches and Malkoff dropins. Here the 123s add value not reduce it.
L91's have about the same volume, weight, and energy capacity as 123's, so it's sort of a wash. L91's tend to cost more if you buy online, but less if you buy in drugstores.
slightly higher power capacity, higher power/weight ratio, and double the shelf life vs CR123's
Chauncey Gardner
Enlightened
I just opened up a box full of pictures from a Grand Canyon trip over a decade ago. It had a couple of old Energizer CR123's in it for my old Olympus.
Both were still, amazingly to me, about 90% compared to new, fresh cells.
Wish I'd saved the packaging now...
Both were still, amazingly to me, about 90% compared to new, fresh cells.
Wish I'd saved the packaging now...
because of the longer runtimes of LED's, the cost of using cr123 primaries is not an issue to me anymore...the only hassle is having to buy them online to get them a dollar apiece...but it's only a minor hassle...my surefire products get a lot more use then they did years ago when they had incan bulbs...
Tuikku
Enlightened
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2010
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I have some CR123 lights. I use them only every now and then. At summertime, almost not at all since its not dark even at night...
My problem with primaries is, that in local small market (or hardware store) Duracell CR123 costs about 7-9$ each.
So, I use cheap no-quality DX-rechargeables even though they slowly self-decharge since I use them only a little.
I have to upkeep them by charging every now and then.
Primaries (with my amount of use) would definitely be more reasonable if cost would not be issue...
I could always order CR123 abroad quite cheap but then again, you usually get a bit more lumens with RCR´s :naughty:
My problem with primaries is, that in local small market (or hardware store) Duracell CR123 costs about 7-9$ each.
So, I use cheap no-quality DX-rechargeables even though they slowly self-decharge since I use them only a little.
I have to upkeep them by charging every now and then.
Primaries (with my amount of use) would definitely be more reasonable if cost would not be issue...
I could always order CR123 abroad quite cheap but then again, you usually get a bit more lumens with RCR´s :naughty:
Let It Bleed
Newly Enlightened
Haven't read all the replies so someone may have already made this point. Lithium batteries cost more whether it's a CR123, AA, AAA or whatever. From the prices I've seen they're all $1.50 to $2.50.
I use Nihm, Li-ion, and lithium and have no use for alkaline in high drain applications. Less performance and probably just as costly isn't better to me. AA alkalines are usually about $0.50 a piece. If a AA lithium lasts just 3X longer, then it's a break even proposition in cost. If they last longer, lithium batteries would be cheaper as well as providing better performance.
Therefore, comparing apples to apples or in this case lithium to lithium, CR123 batteries are smaller and have a higher voltage compared to AA or AAA.
Alkalines are great for remotes and smoke detectors, but they're not getting inside any of my lights. Little *******s are like suicide bombers seeking to kill as many flashlights as they can!
I use Nihm, Li-ion, and lithium and have no use for alkaline in high drain applications. Less performance and probably just as costly isn't better to me. AA alkalines are usually about $0.50 a piece. If a AA lithium lasts just 3X longer, then it's a break even proposition in cost. If they last longer, lithium batteries would be cheaper as well as providing better performance.
Therefore, comparing apples to apples or in this case lithium to lithium, CR123 batteries are smaller and have a higher voltage compared to AA or AAA.
Alkalines are great for remotes and smoke detectors, but they're not getting inside any of my lights. Little *******s are like suicide bombers seeking to kill as many flashlights as they can!
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I have never owned or even seen a decent incandescent flashlight that ran on alkanlines so I choose to use lithium and lithium ion batteries.
Cr123 abillity to power a P60 or MN03 makes them increase the use/value of my lights...
Cr123 abillity to power a P60 or MN03 makes them increase the use/value of my lights...
Chrontius
Flashlight Enthusiast
O RLY? I beg to differ. And in a high-performance incan, no less.
Li-ion vs. LSD NiMH is actually not such a foregone conclusion. Add in the NiMH safety factor, and it's a dead heat, IMHO.
Oh, full disclosure? I use a lot more primaries than I'd like to admit to, but I also have transitioned to a majority of rechargeables of easily five (or more?) chemistries. The only place I use alk... no, actually, those are heavy duty AAs in a Rayovac Industrial for when I want something discreet.
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That's only 7.5W with 8 AA cells, it doesn't sound so great if compared with bulbs made for cr123 cells eg p91 which uses 2Xli-ion cr123 or 3Xcr123 and runs with 20W....
Mike Kerr
Newly Enlightened
I have read this thread and appreciate the things I have learned. In answer to the OP I beleve that CR123 primary's have expanded and increased the VALUE and use of flashlights - not reduced VALUE. The key word in my opinion is value not cost.
Regards,
Regards,
Price can be very subjective. CR123 cells aren't expensive to me. Buy online, buy in bulk, buy quality cells that are Made in America. Not expensive at all. If the only source for CR123 cells were B&M shops that often sell them for $9 each, then I'd stick with AA lights too.
Still, if you use cheap alkies in your AA lights, you risk having the cells leak and ruin your light. Then you have to replace the light itself. Even something inexpensive such as a stock Mini-Maglite costs more than one CR123 cell at a B&M shop, if you have to replace an old one due to battery leakage.
I have several AA and AAA lights. All of them contain either a Duraloop rechargeable or an E2 Energizer lithium primary. Alkies just aren't worth it. And if I'm going to pay more for E2 Energizers, I might as well just use my CR123 based lights anyway.
