DX 3.7V Protected RCR123 + P91 = double tapping, any protected cells that doesn't?

stockae92

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last night, i tried my DX 3.7V Protected RCR123 with a P91, and it needs double tapping to fire up.

(is double tapping bad for the cells and the LA?)

i am wondering if there are protected cells out there that will fire up the P91 without double tapping?

i also tried a MN15 (M3T 125 lumen LOLA) and it fired up without double tapping (great throw!)

will i ever get a M4 or M6 LA to fire up with 2 protected cells?
 
From Lumens Factory I was told only AW's protected RCR123 cells would fire up the high output and extreme high output incandescent lamps without double clicks.
I also tried these from Deal Extreme, and had to double click to make the lamp fire up.
Non-protected cells had no problem first time.
The culprit is the protection-circuit in the battery, which prevents too much instant draw at start-up.
 
I just want to give a big :twothumbs to all you guys running 2.7 amp bulbs on RCR123s. Most of the wimps around here say Li ION should stay under 2C. I'm with you guys damn 3C let's go for 4C!
 
can you explain more on C vs. amp drawn (A?) vs. battery's capacity?

i *thinK* the protection circuit of the battery will kick it before anything melt or smoke
 
lol... yea... don't do that. UNLESS:

here's the approximate procedure for using RCR123s at 2.5+amp. (which is 5-6+C BTW).

1. Charge cells to 4.35V (because who cares right?!),
2. Use cells on a P91, Enjoy for 5 minutes.
3. Throw the cells away, they are dead. Buy new cells and repeat.

Ok... here's the deal.. serious now:
You can probably get away with running a lamp like a P91 on RCR123s for a FEW cycles if all you want is a little wow factor job and don't care about replacing the cells frequently. You'll need to really respect the fact that li-ion cells become more and more dangerous as they age internally, and high current configurations will age their internals much more rapidly. An RCR123 really shouldn't be used in a "routine" cycle of anything greater than about 1 amp.

If you do the following:
1. Never use the full runtime available, don't run the cells down to where the low-volt-protection kicks em off. Use no more than the first couple minutes of runtime. I would guess that the total available runtime is less than 10 minutes on most RCR123s driving a P91. Use 2-3 minutes worth tops, then recharge. This will keep the cells within a "range" that it will incur less damage.
2. Use the light in short bursts. Nothing longer than 15 seconds at a time. This in conjunction with limiting total runtime used, will also retard the rate of internal destruction.
3. Test cell voltage coming out of light, and take note of how "out of balance" they are. With only a few minutes runtime used, they should stay relatively close, within a few hundredths. As the cells age, they will more than likely start to come more and more out of balance. Use this as an additional warning sign.
4. Charge with a nice slow charger that cuts off accurately, set charge cutoff to about 4.17V. I would personally charge cells used like this inside of a blasting box of sorts.
5. check cell voltage when cells are removed from charger, and again after a ~30 minute rest. The more voltage lost, the closer to the end of the life the cells are at.. A drop of about 0.2V (or a cell that dips down to 4.00 or lower) should not be used anymore. It's "dead" and dangerous.

I would also suggest a low-current runtime test setup... Something under 1 amp that you can do periodic runtime tests with. Like a setup that drives a 6 cell mag krypton bulb. Measure the runtime when new, and then again after every few cycles. When total runtime drops to 80% of the original test, the cells should be discarded.


Even with ALL these safety regiments in place, there is still no guarantee that the cells will not develop irregular internal aging patterns that could lead to a vent-with-flame event. And even with all these in place, I would still only expect the cell to deliver maybe 15-30 2-3 "minute" runs before it needs to be replaced.

If you were to charge like normal to 4.20V, and run till the protection kicked on in continuous fashion, I would expect the cells to be "dead" and dangerous in less than 5 cycles.
 
so would protected 18650 be better choices for P91?

how can i find out whats the max safe discharge amp for certain rechargeable Li Ion cells?

is it safe to run P90 with RCR123 then?
 
For running a P91 I have use 18500s. These cells have a capacity of 1500 mAh or 1.5 Ah. 2C would be twice the capacity, 3000 ma or 3 Amps. The P91 draws about 2.7 amps so it is under the limit for the 18500s.

Just make sure the current draw of the bulb is less than 2 times the capacity of the cell and you are in the safe range.
 
P90 is generally considered safe on RCR123s. There are lots of others as well. The MN10, MN15, LF ES-9 and SR-9, WE D26 and D36 9V, Pila GL3 9V D26, etc etc. If you want a full list of available configurations, please click on the link in my sig line. Below the guide, there is a compatibility chart. It includes just about every common incandescent tactical li-ion powered configuration imaginable...

Keeping in mind, that any configuration that is listed as having a runtime less than 30 minutes, should be treated with greater care and caution. Combinations of techniques I listed above, but to a lesser intensity should be employed when dealing with high power-to-size ratio configurations (under 30 minutes runtime).
 
that's the best thread ever! :thumbsup::rock:

question: why SF P90 is rated 9W with 2 x RCR123 and 9.5W with 2 x 18650?

in the turbo head configuration with 2 x 18650, the MN16 (M3T 225 lumen) is brighter than MN20 (M6 250 lumen)?

(i still dream on running MN21 (M6 500 lumen) with 2 x 18650 protected cell .. )

is there a list of the voltage and amp drawn by SF LA?
 
question: why SF P90 is rated 9W with 2 x RCR123 and 9.5W with 2 x 18650?

Bigger cells hold higher voltage under a load, so the power consumption and brightness increases with larger cells.

in the turbo head configuration with 2 x 18650, the MN16 (M3T 225 lumen) is brighter than MN20 (M6 250 lumen)?

The MN16 was originally designed to be used with 3 CR123s at about 2.5A draw. At such a current draw, the lamp is really only getting about 6.6V. When you hit the same lamp with a pair of 18650s, you get a lot more voltage at the lamp because the 18650s can deliver more current at a higher voltage. So the MN16 sees about 7.5V instead of the 6.6V it was designed for. So there is significant overdrive there. Overdriving a xenon lamp increases light output to the power of about 3.3. So the ~14% increase in voltage translates to about a 52% increase in brightness from it's original "design."

The MN20 on the other hand, was originally designed to be used with 2 stacks of CR123s at about a 2.5A draw in an M6. So each cell only delivers about 1.25A, and maintains a higher voltage, so The MN20 lamp is DESIGNED to run at about 7.5V, and receives no significant change in "drive" when run on 18650s.

So, to sum it up, the MN16 runs "225 surefire lumens" at ~6.6V @2.5A. The MN20 runs "250 Surefire Lumens" [email protected]. The MN16 runs at [email protected] when driven by 18650s and gains about 50% output.
 
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