E2 disappointment ! ?

brightnorm

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At the risk of being ridden out of CPF on a rail I must get off my chest something which is almost anathema in our forum: criticism of the E2!! (get your tar and feathers ready!!)

Yes; it is beautiful, brilliantly and ergonomically designed, remarkably small and light; indeed almost a work of art. BUT:
That darn beam bothers the heck out of me.
It's so widely dispersed that its brightness at any given point (dare I say that dirty word "candlepower") is IMO seriously lacking.

I know many flashaholics use the E2 as a general purpose light, but I feel that there are other lights with longer run times which are better suited for that function. I expect a SureFire tac-style light to be BRIGHT!.

I would have been really happy if the E2 had a 6P equivalent beam. That's a genuinely bright beam that's moderately dispersed yet retains real "punch". Many Flashaholics have been hoping for a higher output E2 lamp, but I believe a less dispersed 60 LU beam would probably have satisfied many of them.

I'm frustrated because I love the form of the
E2; it's a little beauty, but I find myself carrying the G2 which is almost as light, and much brighter.

Is it not possible to make a P60 equivalent
for the E2, or does the small reflector diameter somehow preclude that?

End of rant.

Best regards,
Brightnorm
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Lux Luthor

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
At the risk of being ridden out of CPF on a rail I must get off my chest something which is almost anathema in our forum: criticism of the E2!! (get your tar and feathers ready!!)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pack your bags Brightnorm, your username and password will be expiring soon!
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Seriously, since I've run a Surge bulb in a Tec 40, and compared it directly with a Surge on 4 batteries, I would say reflector size plays a role. You simply need a certain diameter reflector to really form that beam.

I hate to wake up tomorrow and see what gets posted here. Moderator!! Remember, he posted this not me!
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Brock

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Are you saying the E2's beam is to large? Or just not bright enough?

I would agree that it could be brighter (couldn't any light), oh how we long for the MN04 high output E2 lamp...

I prefer the beam from the E2 over the P60. All the P60's I have are now egg shaped or oblong. That drives me nuts now that I carry the E2 regularly. Oh well...
 

lightlover

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Brightnorm,
you've mentioned before that your E2 is too "dispersed", but never in such harrowing detail.

I've got two MN03's and the beam from both is perfectly round and pure, a 100% success.
I've also tried both MN03's in different E2 heads, with basically the same results.
In all cases, the balance between the hot spot and the surround beam is a marvel of design, combining reach and great all-round coverage.

It's one of the wonders of the torch world, a beam design which doesn't need any adjustment - it would be spoilt if it were altered or focus-adjusted. (For my needs at least) (OK, you can always wish for a slight change ... )

Can you measure the hotspot and surround beam at say 10 feet/20 feet ?

Some people have complained that their E2's have a larger than they prefer hotspot, but that's rare.
Have you tried more than one LA in it ?

And when you say that the G2 is much brighter, exactly how do you mean ? After all, you're comparing a 60 Lu vs. a 65 Lu.

lightlover
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Carpe Diem

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Conversation overheard around the water cooler:


"Wasn`t that something about Brightnorm?

Yah...who would have ever guessed. He seemed like such a nice guy!

Imagine... actually criticizing the E2. The E2! And on the CPF to boot!

Well... it just goes to show you. Even the people who seem to be the nicest persons on the face of the Earth have a moral flaw. Poor Brightnorm... his was just alot worse than anyone would have ever expected.

Yah... you`re right. Who would have figured. It still makes my skin crawl just to think about it.

You know, though... I still think the national news coverage about Brightnorm being hit by all of those lightning bolts was overdone.

Yah... poor Brightnorm. But at least he finally got the brilliant and intense light that he had always wished for."
 

lightlover

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Carpe D,
that was lovely.

Yes, future generations of Flashlighters will hear of *Brightnorm's Topic*, as a cautionary tale.
Hollywood will probably want to make it a movie, a straight-to-video, no doubt.

Lordy Lordy, who next ??

lightlover
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Tree

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I'm no expert on lights by any means. But... (***warning*** my $.02 ahead) I do agree with brightnorm about the E2 not being the brightest light. On the other hand are there any other lights that weigh 3oz and are made of hard anodized aluminum that have a beam like the E2 and function so well? I'm sure the proposed HOLA (with slightly bigger bezel) for the E2 and the E2e's pyrex bezel are a start, but for me the E2's beam, size and functionality (is that a word?) are just right for my needs. 90% of the time at work I need to illuminate things within 10 feet of me most of that within arms reach. When I used the 8NX and Legend LX for this purpose it was too bright and I had to pull out my PT Rage. Now I use my E2 to see everything, and use my Legend LX to peer into the darkness if I need to see something far away. I'll probably get a G2 with pyrex bezel and lockout tailcap with a P61 if and when that comes available to illuminate items far away, but for now the E2 works for my close up needs.

When I show the 8NX and Legend LX to other people and demonstrate how bright they are they usually give me the same look like "yes it's bright" but they would comment on the 8NX being big and the Legend LX would not impress them. Now that I have an E2 and show it or let people (gasp) borrow it they almost all ask about it and want to know how much and where to get one.

I guess the reason for all this is I don't think the E2's reason for existence was to be a long range illumination tool. The G2's lightweight design and P61 capability seems to be built for this.

Wow... I did not even know I had a soap box.
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Please don't take this as an argument, just an opinion.
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Bucky

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Before I gave one E2 away to my friend for a wedding gift, I briefly had two E2s. The two beams were designed to be approximately the same - both being a wider uniformly bright beam, but one of the E2s had a wider beam than the other. Not a huge difference, but it was noticeable to me. I switched the bulbs and there was no change, so it was definitely the reflector not the LAs. Maybe the E2 brightnorm has is an E2 with one of the wider, or wider than normal beam patterns as opposed to most E2s. Then again maybe he is just not happy with the E2 beam bar none. Just a thought.

I also now have an E2e and I have been comparing the P60 of my G2 and the beams of my E2 and E2e quite a bit over the last couple nights. The E2e seems a bit brighter and has a little bit of a brighter center than the E2 (a la the P60). But nothing quite like the P60 which has an immensely bright center and not nearly as much surround light as either 6V Executive light. Let this serve as a disclaimer though: I only have one E2 and one E2e so I am not proclaiming my results and indicative of all E2 and E2e lights - just as my results. That being said, I think my E2e is the perfect compromise between the E2 and the P60 in the G2. So if you don't like the E2 beam, give the E2e a try. In my experience, it is a bit brighter (pyrex) and it has a bit more of P60 style output. (BTW, I did switch the E2 and E2e bulbs and found that the reflector definitely is repsonsible for the output style).

Personally, I like the beam of the E2 and E2e better than the P60 for almost every use. Especially considering the extra runtime from the Executive lights. But, like I said, I do prefer the E2e output to the E2 output as a great compromise between the very tight P60 beam and the very disperse E2 beam.

Bucky
 

brightnorm

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Thanks everybody for your enjoyable and informative replies.

I appreciate the humor and tolerance shown to a member of.... Wait a minute... who are those guys over there in the corner holding that rail and bucket and feathers..........
.....hey...Hey!!....HEY!!!...HELP!!...HELLLPPPP!!!!!......ARGGHHHHHHHHHH


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txwest

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Houston, TX
Just my 2 cents. I compare all my other lights to the output of my E2. Not the brightness, but the quality of the beam. So far, of the 15 or so I have, nothing else compares. But I keep looking. TX
 

Gandalf

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It's been my experience in the 7 or 8 years that I've owned 2 6P's that the lamps are pretty variable. This does not seem to be the case with the beam from the E2: all of the 4 lamps I've used in my 2 E2's have been nearly identical. But the 6P lamps can and do vary quite a bit in what the beam looks like. If you are lucky, you get one with a nice hot spot in the center, surrounded by a beam that is like the E2 beam, but sometimes a little more diffused and larger. But only some of the P60 lamps give this 'ideal' beam; at least half of the 9 or 10 lamps I have used, or have on hand, lack the 'perfect focus' that SureFire touts so heavily. The beam is just a brighter version of the E2 beam. Acceptable, but not what I'd like to get when I pay the cost of a 3D cell Maglite for a Surefire lamp assembly.

Recently, I bought another P60 lamp, and discovered it had a beam like an hourglass: the lamp was so out of focus, that the electrodes were casting shadows. To their credit, SureFire replaced it with just a phone call, and didn't want the defective one returned to them. I don't think anyone can fault SureFire's customer service: they make excellent products, with premium price tags, but back them up with 'premium' customer service. Not every company that makes an excellent, expensive product has this service record. (Anyone here ever needed any customer service for a Heckler & Koch firearm? Opposite end of the customer service spectrum, in my experience.)

So in some respects, I think the E2 has an advantage over the 6P: it's almost as bright, has a significantly longer burn time, and the beam is much more consistant lamp to lamp. And of course, all from a very small package.

I would gladly give up the extra 15 minutes or so of light the MN03 lamp delivers, to get 60 minutes of the best light pattern from a P60 module, but that seems unlikely.

So my vote goes with the majority: I like the 6P beam better, and the lamp in the 6P I carry on my belt has this beam, but I'd prefer to carry the smaller and lighter E2. As soon as Surefire makes a holster for it, the E2 will replace my 6P on my belt.

Another point is that the MN03 lamp costs significantly less than the P60 lamp, so operating cost of the E2, besides battery life, is less expensive per hour: the MN03 lamp costs about $11, and the P60 about $17. That makes the MN03 about 35% cheaper. I'd bet, given the much simpler design of the MN03 lamp, that SureFire's profit on it is much more than on the much more expensive to manufacture P60 module, but that's *my* rant.

I think the E2 was designed primarly for the 'civilian' type, non professional use, market. It's smaller, lighter, and has a longer burn time; it's easier to carry, and somewhat less expensive to use. I don't think the E2 was designed to *replace* the 6P, but to offer a smaller alternative to it; and there are some trade-offs. But you have to admit that the E2 is a masterpiece of flaslight engineering; representing a real pinnacle in design, from a company that makes flashlights that are *each* a masterpiece in their own right.

So, in summary, I agree: I'd love to have a perfect 6P beam from an E2, but that's simply not what the E2 delivers. I think the E2 delivers a very good amount of light and has a very good beam that's excellent for short to medium distance use. It's a great flashlight, but it's not perfect; very close to perfect, though, IMHO.
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And one other thing: I simply can't understand why so many people wnat a higher output lamp for the E2, that will give double the light, but 1/3 the burn time, (if it follows the P61 lamp numbers) It's very, very cost inefficient. I bought a P61 lamp for my 6P; I put it in, ran it for about 45 seconds, and put it in a drawer, where it sat for 2 or 3 years, until I sold it. It's bad enough getting only 60 minutes from the P60 lamp, but 20 minutes for a set of 123's is pretty expensive light!
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End of *my* rant!
Flame away..... I've got asbestos underwear!
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artar

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i agree with brightnorm!
in the e2 60lumen or 5watts are wasted by the reflector/bulb unit. the 5 watts are dispersed in a few meters.
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geepondy

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I think Surefire obviously designed this as a non-tactical light with a less bright but wider beam that is perfect for a household light and around the campfire, etc. I don't own many Surefire lights but when showing my non flashlight savy friends my E1, E2, 8AX and PT Surge, every single one of them is most impressed with the E2. Well one girl like the E1 better.

I love my E2. There are certainly plenty of other choices if one desires a brighter, more tightly focused tactical style beam. I am interested to see if the LOLA for the E2 is significantly brighter then the E1. Also I personally am not interested in a 100 lumen HOLA for the E2. I much prefer a three cell Surefire that will put out 100 plus lumens of light for an hour rather then a two cell Surefire that will only put out the same for 20 minutes. You are talking 20 minutes a light per cell versus 10 minutes of light per cell, a big difference.
 

Carpe Diem

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Watch out Brightnorm!

Some of the SF executives (the REALLY MEAN ONES... the ones who raised the prices on 2/01/02) are each armed with the "Beast"... and they`re looking for you.

Hide Brightnorm... hide!

And watch out, Brightnorm, they get their SF batteries for free... not at the spiked prices we now have to pay for them.

Hide Brightnorm... hide!
 

brightnorm

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Oct 13, 2001
Messages
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bucky:
...Hence I think the perfect blend of runtime and brightness would be the 25 lumen 150 minute runtime MNO2 LA.
Bucky
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bucky,

Do you (or anyone) happen to know how many lumens the UK 4AA/Mini Q40/2L puts out? What about the 4AA/Mini Q40 with lithiums?

I'm curious because I use those lights as my every day + emergency lights. The Mini Q40/4AA on lithiums actually gives 4 1/2 hours of good useable light plus another 1/2 hour + of dim light.

For my "bright" light I use the ASP Triad (Taclite) adjusted to narrow beam for distance. I just don't see where the E2 would fit; what role it would play.

If I want a "relatively" long burn really bright light in a very compact package, I use the "classic" (pre non-roll bezel) 9P with a P90 lamp. It's really tiny considering the amount of light, not to mention the P91 which turns this 6 1/2" x 1" 6.7oz light into an M3 HOLA near-equivalent.

Back to those UK's. Any ideas on lumens?

Best regards,
Brightnorm
 

brightnorm

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *something ridiculous ?:
.
...Have you tried more than one LA in it ?...
And when you say that the G2 is much brighter, exactly how do you mean ? After all, you're comparing a 60 Lu vs. a 65 Lu.

lightlover
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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lightlover,

Sorry I didn't get around to measuring the beam, but your point about trying more than one La is well taken. Perhaps I should buy a couple and check them out.

In terms of the brighter G2 (P60), I don't believe those 5 Lu are significant. It really comes down to beam angle. The E2's dispersion is clearly ideal for the vast majority of Flashaholics who use it as a general purpose light. My general purpose light is usually a UK Mini Q40 with lithiums. It's very bright (but of course, not "Surefire-bright") and lasts for 4 1/2 + hours, not to mention its very small size and negligible weight (3.7oz with batteries). The 2 x Lith light I carry with it must be really bright. Either a Surefire G2/6P etc. or my preferred light, the Asp Triad (Taclite).

Perhaps if I didn't think in terms of these two categories I would feel differently about the E2, which I love nevertheless as a beautiful and outstanding example of successful ergonomic engineering, and it DOES have a very nice well-nigh perfect beam.
It just doesn't "fit" in either of those two categories.

Best regards,
Brightnorm
 

Bucky

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Brightnorm: sorry I don't have a Mini Q40, but I wish I did. Not only for comparison sake, but because it is a really nice light.
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Bucky
 

brightnorm

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bucky:
Brightnorm: sorry I don't have a Mini Q40, but I wish I did. Not only for comparison sake, but because it is a really nice light.
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Bucky
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bucky,

It is, but I admit that those Uk reflector assemblies could stand some re-engineering(They're non-faceted). My way around that has been to buy extra lamps and select the best. I know it seems extravagant, but since I use the light "lightly" they last for years.

Best regards,
Brightnorm
 
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