Efficiency comparison Lumintop Copper Tool and Copper Worm

[jon_slider]

Both lights are with Nichia LED, and NoPWM from 2016. I bought them new, they are not free samples nor preproduction prototype models.

I ran the lights on High and used a stopwatch and a "calibrated" light meter, and took readings at 10, 20, 30 and 35 minutes, at which point I ended the test because the Tool was down to 3 lumens, while the Worm was still at 78 lumens.:

Tool on Left, Worm on Right in each pic

My ReyLight Copper Tool w LMH modes has the inefficient and unregulated ~30 minute runtime that UPZ reported for his Lumintop Copper Tool w MLH modes. My Worm has the efficient and regulated ~50 minute runtime that UPZ also reported. (maukka reports his Copper Tool is as efficient as UPZ and my Worms.. hmmmm)

maukkas copper tool has the longer regulated runtime

.

I dont know what is different about maukkas Copper Tool.. but Im jealous 🙂

for further visualization, here are some additional driver images (Im waiting on one from maukkas tool)

 

[jon_slider]

So the point of the above post was to show that some Tools have efficient drivers and some do not. I do not know how to tell them apart by looks or release date.

Anyway, I went on to compare another pair of lights I have. A Maratac from Oct 2015 that had NoPWM, and a Maratac from April 2015 that was YesPWM. I had both lights modded to 3000k High CRI. The older light I had the PWM driver removed and replaced with a ReyLight driver, all thanks to gunga.

The net result of my tests is that the ReyLight driver I got from Gunga is the efficient model, that runs with full regulation. This is opposite of the ReyLight tool I tested above.

The conclusion is that Some Tools, all Worms, and Some ReyLights, have the Efficient, regulated driver. Its not a deep data set, just 2 worms (both efficient), 2 Cu Reylights (one efficient), 2 Cu Tools (one efficient), 1 Maratac (not efficient).

Speculation
Maratacs claim higher lumen values than Tools, both in XP-G2 form. in both my tests, the light that started out brighter, was inefficient and fell off rapidly, while the light that started slightly lower, ran regulated and outlasted the light that started brighter..

I have a CuTool coming in the mail. I plan to do a similar test. Basically, put it on my light meter at the start of a timer, and read its value again 20 minutes later. If they are the same (less than 5% difference), its regulated and efficient, if they are significantly different, its the unregulated driver.

the data on my 4 lights
on left note Reylight dropped 20% in 20 min
on right note the Maratac dropped 36% in 23 minutes, it was uncomfortably hot to hold also

Until now I thought it was the driver in the TiTool that was inefficient, but now we know from UPZ the inefficient driver is also in the Brass Tool and in his Copper Tool, and in One of my ReyLights, and in my Maratac.

note this efficiency and flat regulation difference is in regards to High Mode only, so far,
maukka tested his inefficient TiTool and his Efficient CuTool, and found both had flat regulation on Medium..

my lights driver pics sorted by inefficient and efficient.. note there is a ReyLight in both categories

 

[ronniepudding]

This intrigued me, so I did a test with a few of my Lumintops using the 20 minute check for regulation that Jon outlined above. Two worms -- one copper with Nichia, and the other stainless steel with XP-G2 -- both passed the test. Sadly, my ReyLight CU Tool did not, and I didn't need the light meter to reach that conclusion. It was noticeably dim at the 20 minute mark. It's getting late, but I'll try to run another test tomorrow with a 'stock' CU Tool, and a Preon P1 that's been modded with a ReyLight driver. I'm hoping those results will mirror Jon's, and that the modded P1 will exhibit regulation on high output. I don't have much hope for the stock CU Tool, but we shall see.

 

[jon_slider]

Two worms -- one copper with Nichia, and the other stainless steel with XP-G2 -- both passed the test. Sadly, my ReyLight CU Tool did not

Thanks for the data points.. Worms for the Win!🙂

fwiw, worms are on sale,
the copper worm is on sale too

Discount codes and link deleted, Ive been informed Im not supposed to share.. sorry.. contact Freeme and M4D M4X and Pablo

running score
Lights with efficient driver
1 Copper Tool w Nichia (maukka)
1 Reylight Driver from gunga (from the Copper Reylight Run) (jon_slider)
4 Worms (3 copper w Nichia (1 ronniepudding, 1 UPZ, 1 jon_slider), 1 Stainless w XP-G2 (ronniepudding))

Lights with INefficient driver
1 Copper Tool w Nichia (UPZ)
2 Copper Rey Light w Nichia (ronniepudding and me)
1 Copper Maratac (me)
1 TiTool Reylight version w Electronic switch (maukka)
1 Brass Tool w Electronic switch (UPZ)

so far, all lights with Electronic switch have the Inefficient driver, and all Copper and Stainless Worms have the Efficient driver.
Copper Tools (combined ReyLight and MLH versions) are split, 3 inefficient (jon, UPZ, and ronniepudding), 2 efficient (maukka and jon)

 

[kreisl]

(deleted)

 

[gunga]

Good thread. Good info. I'm curious about the variance in the ReyLight driver. I've used and sold many. I did notice a change in inductor size. It's possible that the earlier run had a bigger and more efficient inductor. Unfortunately, of that run I think I had a 40% defective driver rate (2 of 5).

I got more drivers later with no defects but the inductor changed on some or all. I currently don't want to dismantle everything to check but will keep this in mind. Good info.

 

[jon_slider]

i have the Maratac AAA SS, presumably Rev3 because it has PWM.

I bought a Rev 3 Maratac in April of 2015. It had PWM. I bought another still Rev 3 Maratac AAA in October 2015, it has NoPWM.

the Rev 4 AA has PWM, I have no info on the Rev 4 AAA

I bought a Copper Tool in June 2015, it had PWM. I bought the ReyLight CuTool, ordered end of 2015, iirc it arrived in Feb 2016, with NoPWM. imho, around Oct 2015, the Copper Maratac, and Copper Tool became NoPWM. In 2016 I bought a Copper Worm w NoPWM.

I do not think the efficiency problem is on all the NoPWM Reylights, nor on all the NoPWM Tools. maukka got a NoPWM Tool from Massdrop in early 2016, and it IS Efficient.

It seems All the Copper Worms are efficient and have NoPWM (the model with no pocket clip)

I have not tested any of the PWM Maratacs, nor Tools. All my tests are of NoPWM models. Not all NoPWM models are inefficient, some ARE Efficient.

I got more drivers later with no defects but the inductor changed on some or all.

maybe at some point we will learn how to tell the NoPWM Efficient drivers from the NoPWM Inefficient drivers.

thanks for all the shared learning.

 

[jon_slider]

Tested Medium, the worm is regulated and lasts past the 4 hour mark when I ended the test because the ReyLight turned off by then.

speculation, the 4 hour runtime spec on the current Tool is true, however the same specs are posted for the Copper Worm and are lower than in reality, because the Worm has the Efficient Driver, the Tool does not.

here are the Nichia Worm specs per Lumintop
3 lumens (36Hours)
18 lumens (4Hours)
80 lumens (30 Min)

and the Copper Tool w Nichia
3 lumens (60 Hours)
18 lumens (4 Hours)
80 lumens (30 Minutes)

alternate specs for the Copper Tool w Nichia, from Gearbest
3 lumens (60 Hours)
18 lumens (10 Hours)
80 lumens (30 Minutes)

you can also see what I consider a typo in the CopperTool specs, 60 hours on low. I believe that is left over from when the medium spec was double what it is now, and the high spec was double what it is now. The gearbest specs show 10 hours on medium for the Copper Tool and I know that is not right, 4 hours is.. opposite is true for the worm, I know 4 hours is too little, though I did not confirm the 10 hour possibility.

specs are enough to drive anyone batty.. Im grateful to those who take the time to report runtime tests..

My conclusion is that the inefficient drivers in the ReyLight CuTool and regular CuTool (with maukkas being an exception), are inefficient on all modes, basically they run half as long as the Efficient Driver in the Worm. So far none of the lights with electronic switches have the efficient driver.

disclaimer, Im making conclusions based on very limited numbers, and invite others to do their own tests.

The high mode can be tested in 2 hours with a light meter, the medium mode can be tested in 4 hours, no light meter required, the dimmness is very noticeable, and a battery meter will read below 1 Volt.

 

[jon_slider]

fwiw, there is a similar thread here
that has been a few more tests
what has emerged as a consistent pattern is that the Copper and Brass Worms (6 total tested) run regulated on high mode, and have the longer runtime, than the Copper, Brass, or Ti Tools, regardless whether they are Reylight LMH or also standard MLH, and regardless whether they have electronic or mechanical switches

there are two exceptions, Maukka has a CuTool that is Regulated, and I have a ReyLight Driver that is regulated

there IS a visual difference between maukkas Regulated CuTool, and the Reylights. maukkas regulated tool has the very large button, that I also have on my Worm. Not all small buttons are unregulated, but so far all Large buttons are on Regulated drivers.

From the left: Cu Tool, Cu Worm, Ti Tool. No PWM on any of them.

thanks to everyone that has contributed tests

 

[Deleted member 737]

Reading this thread for research. Fascinating and I hope you guys get more contributors to the data and numbers.

My takeaway, hopefully someone can confirm or disprove, is that these companies produce Cu models in volume. It's almost impossible to know whom is making them, at what factory, and it's crap-shoot as to which driver you may or may not get but for some reason going with Worm versions are the "best" bet, as of Feb 2017?

 

[jon_slider]

Lumintop makes the Tool, Worm, and Maratac

atm, the Copper, Brass, or Stainless Worm is the one that offers Regulated output on High.

I dont actually use High much, but when I do, I now know the Worm lasts almost 2x longer than the Tool or Maratac, and the Worm will hold steady brightness for most of its runtime, the other two simply get dimmer and dimmer over time, no Regulation on High mode.

my interpretation of the manufacturing volume is as follows.. this is just speculation
I believe Lumintops are made in batches of 500 minimum, Maratacs are ordered by CountyComm exclusively, who also outlets them to BladeHQ (who sells them for less than CountyComm), and when CountyComm wants to clear inventory, they go to Massdrop.

The Tool is a Lumintop product, the Copper version first came out as a Group buy iirc around Nov 2015, called ReyLight, and featured a Nichia LED and Low mode first ie, LMH instead of MLH of the standard Tools (Nichia and LMH was not previously offered by Lumintop). The group buy format allowed Rey to obtain advance funding for a batch order from Lumintop. This means no lights were produced in volume, until buyers had paid in advance. It took several months for the ReyLight Tools to be delivered.

Lumintop followed the ReyLight Copper Tool with a standard MLH Copper tool with Nichia option, that we can buy today.

Rey followed with a Titanium Tool that offered LMH modes and a Nichia option. It did not sell well. There was a lot of negative press about the electronic switch. And we learned that the TiTool was "inefficient". Turns out the Copper Tools and Maratacs are now also inefficient.

Lumintop followed with an MLH version of the TiTool.. also with Nichia option.

the same strategy of advance funding is being employed by Massdrop with their Brass Tool. they have secured 3600!!! orders, paid in advance, for a light due to ship 2 months from now. You can see Lumintop manages their risk well, they dont have to make larger orders, before they get paid. And Massdrop also manages their risk, by getting advance payment from the consumers.

The Copper Worm is a Lumintop that mirrors their exclusive contract for the Prometheus Beta. The tails are different, the LEDs are different, the drivers are different, but the copper head and body design, are the same.

I see this also in the pocket knife market.. someone comes up with a Special Factory Order (with or without payment in advance from consumers via a group buy format), and the Factory later releases their own version of the knife, with changes to the cover materials, or other aesthetic details, but made from the same tooling..

I personally like to carry a Maratac Twisty in my pocket, and I like to keep a Clicky Tool in my car.

I owned a Prometheus Beta, sold it when I discovered PWM.. replaced it with a Worm, that has no PWM. I found both lights way too heavy for keychain. I like putting the Worm head on my Maratac, in order to get the Nichia LED.. I sometimes put the Copper Tool head on my Copper Maratac body instead. The Tool head is a better match for the Maratac body, the depth of the head threads are more similar. btw, the TiTool head is unique, and does not lego to any other model.. But I digress.

Efficiency wise, yes, the Worm wins. There is no perfect light for all applications.. I tend to do a little mixing and matching to get features I prioritize, NoPWM, Nichia LED, and Medium mode first

Lately, in my pocket is a Maratac body with a Worm w Nichia head. I tolerate the larger headgap, I prefer the smooth head as it lets me know which end of the light Im holding by feel in the dark, as I carry loose in pocket, not on keys

As an aside, since Ive followed your Arc thread…
The light I gave my non Flashaholic college kid though, is not copper, and not a twisty, and does not require replacing batteries. I chose the Manker LAD w Nichia. It is the closest thing to your ARC in terms of brightness of the Lad first mode. I would strongly recommend a LAD over a Copper Worm, for keychain, due to weight, user interface, and battery management

if you want discount codes for Worms, or Tools, PM me.. I recently was asked not to post them publicly

oh and fwiw, for keychain carry, among the Tools, I would choose the TiTool, due to its lower weight than Copper or Brass, and also because I prefer the way the keychain attaches:

I have no love for the keychain attachment of the CuTool

 

[kreisl]

(deleted)

 

[jon_slider]

The Worm is dimmer and has shorter runtime than Maratac Rev3 (my Rev3 and Upz Rev3).
...
You gutted your Maratac Rev3 in order to have a NoPwm-Maratac?

thanks for posting the Maratac runtime chart, I like your clear posting style
Im looking also at the maukka chart of the Worm

The Worm is dimmer because it has a Nichia, the Maratac is only 70 CRI.
The Worm is regulated for 45 minutes, the PWM Maratac for 50 min.. not a big diff

When I had my PWM maratac driver swapped for a ReyLight driver, that light did not become inefficient, I got lucky, and it has a regulated driver that runs for an hour, like the worm, and with NoPWM. I also wanted Warm White High CRI, so it got a 3000k XPG. It is one of my absolute favorite lights for car camping.. I dont edc 3000k, I prefer 4500k for EDC, so my Worm is perfect for that. I have no complaints with those two pills.

When I bought my NoPWM (also Rev3) Maratac, I did not realize it had a driver that was less efficient, I learned that during this thread. I also learned that if I buy a Copper or Brass Worm, w Nichia, I could swap out the Cool White for High CRI, either by Lego, or by pill swap. All good outcomes

Same with my ReyLights and Tools. I did not know they were inefficient drivers, but I was glad they had NoPWM.

If I can have my cake and eat it too, why would I add PWM?🙂.. iow, the Worm has NoPWM, Yes High CRI, Yes "Neutral tint", Yes regulated high mode… whats not to like?🙂

I personally dont consider a 70 CRI, Cool white, w PWM appealing, no matter how long it runs for.. But Im unusual, and Im not saying that the PWM Maratac w XPG2 is bad for you 🙂.. choices are good.. do whatever makes you happiest.. buy them all, mix, match and stir…LOL

Now a question to consider
If you could have a Maratac with an efficient regulated driver, NoPWM, Neutral White, YES High CRI
or
a Maratac, also with an efficient regulated driver, with YesPWM, Cool White, and NO High CRI

which one would you prefer to EDC?
all answers are correct for different priorities

let me add some visuals regarding warm neutral and cool white
left to right ~ 6000k, ~5000k, and ~3500k w "circuit noise" (hybrid PWM)

and Left to R, Stock Maratac w No PWM, Stock Copper Worm w Nichia and NoPWM, Maratac modded to NoPWM ReyLight Driver and High CRI

for my photos, PWM is a real deal breaker.. the PWM on the left is the same on the Rev3 YesPWM Maratac

btw, a tangent about Regulated vs Unregulated output
the case could be made that Unregulated is "better" in that it wont leave you stranded suddenly in the dark (of course thats unlikely for any self respecting flashaholic, as we have spare lights and spare batteries)

personally, Unregulated has little value to me, but I respect that others have totally valid reasons why they might prefer a light that is not Regulated, for example, if they want to run LiIon with less risk of overdischarge.. basically using dimness as an indication of discharge rate..

 

[jon_slider]

fwiw, I tested my Worm and ReyLIght Tool on Medium today.. both ran regulated for over 3 hours and died around the 4 hour window (one had an Eneloop Pro, the other Eneloop, the Pro ran 15 min longer)

my test supports the same conclusion that maukka reached earlier
the drivers we are calling "inefficient", such as in the Tool, because of lack of regulation and shorter runtime on High, are equally efficient on Medium, as the "efficient" ones, such as in the Worm

 

[ronniepudding]

Finally got around to testing my
A) stock driver (M, L, H) Tool CU with 219B, and my
B) Preon P1 modded with ReyLight driver (L,M, H) and 219C...

Both ended up being unregulated on High, and in keeping with the previously discussed findings for "inefficient" drivers. The Preon ran slightly (~5 minutes) longer before I stopped testing due to dimming, but I don't think it's statistically relevant because of the emitter/driver difference, and because I didn't do multiple tests to account for battery performance.

As a sanity check, I retested my CU Worm, which ran consistently regulated for 40+ minutes before dimming.

 

[jon_slider]

sanity check

Well done!

So far Every Tool and ReyLight tested (except maukkas and mine), are Unregulated on High

Every Copper and Brass Worm tested runs Regulated on High.

 

[Woods Walker]

Interesting. Not sure why one would be more efficient than the other if I am reading this right.

 

[jon_slider]

Interesting. Not sure why one would be more efficient than the other if I am reading this right.

post 6 is the nugget

 

[Woods Walker]

post 6 is the nugget

I will take a look. I suffer from chronic low attention span so often miss stuff the first time around.

 

[jon_slider]

fwiw, the Copper Worm with Nichia is on sale. This light has consistently tested as having the efficient driver. Im not affiliated and give no guarantees, but, fwiw, the CuWorm head w Nichia is my favorite AAA EDC with High CRI and NoPWM. I use it on a Maratac Body or sometimes on a Thrunite body. Bear in mind if this lego interests you, that the Worm has shorter threads than a Maratac or Thrunite, so the worm body will not work with my Maratac nor my Thrunite heads.. (I have not tried swapping the pills)

copper worm sale :
http://www.banggood.com/Lumintop-Co...eychain-LED-Flashlight-For-Gif-p-1029865.html
$21.70 w code LUMINTOP

(I dont think Im violating any do not share rules by posting this link, if I am please let me know)