Electric & Alt Fuel Vehicles (part 2)

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Cornkid said:
What is the average MilePerGallon rating you get on gasoline? Well Hydrogen can get 80 MILES PER GALLON!!!
Do some research... It helps

http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/article_588.shtml

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Good lord. Is this the line where you get that factoid:
"Some believe that the first serious U.S. effort for Hydrogen-vehicle-use started ten years ago with the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV) with Los Alamos and Sandia National Laboratories effort to design an 80 mpg hybrid Hydrogen engine. "

Some believe? And excuse me - that's a *hybrid* H2 engine. Not a FCV. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif This is your research. This is what you're hanging your FCV hat on?

Tom - have you yet "researched" the document in the link I provided? Any comment?

OK, to change the subject back to the real world where we are forced to live, last weekend I drove 80 highway miles on about 60% of by State of Charge in the Rav. My Rav stores the energy equivalent of about 1 gallon of gas. Driving 80 miles on 60% of my "gallon" means I was doing about 130mpg. (Some folks regularly achieve 150+, so I pretty much suck). And this in a battery car that was developed ten years ago, using ten-year-old battery technology. A car that was built under duress. By all means, let's take a giant leap backwards to the future.

Research means more than reading a few articles on the Web, I'm afriad. Most folks who have contributed to this thread HAVE done extensive research. Some of us are actually living our research. To me, this is not an academic study, it is my reality.
 
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markdi said:
I have owned my grand am since 1993

extreemly reliable and fun and cheap car to own.

I am still waiting for the dangerous gasoline in my car to explode.


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My point here was that it could explode if the gas tank was ruptured either in an accident or intentionally. Sure, batteries can explode too but the energy contained in a battery for a given range is much less than in gasoline because ICEs only turn about 20% of the energy in the gasoline into motion whereas the EV uses nearly 100%. Also, newer chemistries like lithium polymer are practically explosion proof. If they short you might start a fire but that's about it.

Not to get too off-topic but for a graphic demonstration of the dangers of fuels like gasoline and kerosene just look at pictures of downtown Manhattan post 9/11. That never would have happened if all our transportation were based on electricity (EVs, electric railways, maglevs).

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I would still probably rather have the electric car.


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I'll go one better. The only type of car I would ever consider buying would have to be electric. I like the convenience of home "refueling". Also, lack of fumes is a big plus to someone like myself. Auto exhaust has a really bad effect on me to the point that I can't take car trips over about 30 minutes long without feeling ill.
 
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What is the average MilePerGallon rating you get on gasoline? Well Hydrogen can get 80 MILES PER GALLON!!! Do some research... It helps

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It does help, but then again I drive a car that over 30,000 miles has an average of 52.84 mpg over those 30k miles, many of them on bio-diesel. And Darell just told us he is getting about 130 mpg equivalent. This isn't research from the internet, this is real world results. We live with this stuff, we don't just read about it.

I have to ask since you are so sure about what the future holds and how good FCV will be, what are you driving now? How are you living that leads us towards this goal? How many solar panels are on your roof, how many incandescent’s are in your house?

Oh and how much is this car going to cost, what about all the toxic waste catalyst from the fuel cells, how much energy goes in to making the fuel cells in the first place.

Here is the way I think of a fuel cell car. Think of power as water. A fuel cell can produce a very small stream of water, about 20 hp worth. When you accelerate you need about 100hp to get to speed. So the FCV takes the power it makes and stores it in batteries (just like a true EV) and then feeds it to the electric motor driving the car. All a FCV is, is an EV that can charge itself via what ever the fuel cell is fed, be it hydrogen, propane, or heck even gasoline, but what’s the point. Just add more batteries and forget the fuel cell all together. Then you get a cheaper, lighter, safer, more economical car.
 
We will see. Europe has seen the light at the end of the tunnel. As long as the Bush family, being the oil tyrants they are, rule this country.... There will always be gas polluting this "free" country.

-tom
 
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Cornkid said:
...Europe has seen the light at the end of the tunnel..

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Got a link that tells all about that? I'm curious to read up on that.
 
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...Europe has seen the light at the end of the tunnel..

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Got a link that tells all about that? I'm curious to read up on that.

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Marc I am sure he has done his homework and knows Europe is going the diesel and bio-diesel route. Heck over 40% of the cars over there are now diesels and the number just keep going up. So they are moving in the right direction. As I am sure Corn also know because of his research they use far more bio-diesel then the US.
 
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Cornkid said:
Europe has seen the light at the end of the tunnel.

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Two questions.

1. How many European drivers are tooling around in FCV's? Last I checked, they had the same number of retail FCVs in Europe as we have here in the USA. Zero.

2. Do you read any of my posts?
 
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Brock said:
they use far more bio-diesel then the US.

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When I visited Germany last year, it was awesome to see that the cheapest liquid fuel you could purchase was biodiesel. They are being proactive (at least in Germany) and subsidizing the fuel that makes the most sense. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I was staying just across the street from the local Mercedes dealership, and fully 3/4 of the vehicles for sale were diesel. Of course I also have a Mercedes spokesperson on tape saying, in 1997, that by the year 2004, they would have 500,000 FCV's in private hands. Oops. Zero isn't quite close enough, but I guess it is a start. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif
 
Man, I crave for this kind (high efficiency in transportation) of reading. As for my situation, living 6 miles away from work, I keep going back to my bike as my primary tranportation. I know...I know I am off topic.
But, I just want to thanks you all for this very informative reading.
 
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RewopEldnac said:
Man, I crave for this kind (high efficiency in transportation) of reading. As for my situation, living 6 miles away from work, I keep going back to my bike as my primary tranportation. I know...I know I am off topic.

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Not off-topic at all! In my mind, the superior alternative fuel is NO fuel! Bicycles rule! Seriously, our bigger problem is the personal automobile, not just which type of fuel to use in it. I talk lots about EVs (have you noticed? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif), yet most of my travel time is spent on the saddle of my bicycle, typically pulling a trailer with my daughter in it.

The beauty of riding is that you also save on gym membership fees. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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Cornkid said:
We will see. Europe has seen the light at the end of the tunnel. As long as the Bush family, being the oil tyrants they are, rule this country.... There will always be gas polluting this "free" country.

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I guess you've missed the last few State of the Union addresses - Bush has made mention of the "hydrogen economy" in all of them. Of course the oil companies won't complain about hydrogen - they would supply it. You didn't think they were going to produce all that hydrogen from electrolysis when they can extract it from hydrocarbons much more efficiently... did you?

In fact, I remember hearing that GM's "HyWire" concept car was slated to get an onboard fuel processor that would convert octane and/or methane to hydrogen for the fuel cell... and dump the carbon as CO2. So much for non-polluting. Most commercial fuel cells on the market feature fuel processors since bulk hydrogen just isn't something you can buy from your local fuel distributor, but natural gas is.

Specs and operationl information for a commercial 200kW fuel cell.

Same company talking about its fuel cells in busses. Looks like methanol and methane are popular fuels.

But you want to know about cars? UTC has very little detail about automotive applications, but I'm sure they're wonderful!

GM's specs on the HyWire. Didn't believe me when I said it weighed in at over 4000 lbs? It only gets about 40 MPG with a range of 80 miles. I think I can beat that with some of VWs lower-end offerings...

Oh well - maybe I'll just have to settle for a Civic Hybrid with its measly 46/51 MPG when it's configured with a pedestrian 5-speed manual transmission. Sure, it costs less than $20k, is more fuel efficient, weighs less, isn't as sexy, is crash-rated, and available for purchase right now, but ... uhm ... oh wait - those are all advantages.
 
idelprocess I agree I am willing to buy a vehicle very soon that is either a BEV or a hybrid. I would prefer a diesel hybrid so that I can do the bio-desiel thing.

Yes sometimes I am at work for 32 + hours. Used to be more like 72+ hours but that was crazy!!

Ok a bev sounds good to me. !!!!!!!!!! Still I want a hybrid dielsel minivan
 
Darrel said:[ QUOTE ]
Zero isn't quite close enough, but I guess it is a start. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

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Hehe, I had to laugh reading that one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
I also very much enjoyed Brock's pragmatic hydroelectric solution to our energy problems /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Olivier
 
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Darell said:
The HyWire (a second generation of the thing is being built now - sure wish we ever had a second generation of any of the production EVs!) is an execellent example hype vs. reality. Most folks think that BEVs are way too heavy, and that somewho FCVs will be featherweight (hey, they're just filled with that light H2, after all!). They think FCV will have superior range. They think FCV will have superior power.

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Eh, more than a few of us read Natural Capitalism and paid particular attention to the "Hypercar" chapter that is likely responsible for most of the FCEV myths. It was an attractive picture that bordered on being too good to be true... and was. I know that the authors were dreaming of something that Detroit was never going to produce - personal FCVs made of carbon fiber weighing in at ~700 lbs and needing at most 40kW peak power. I'm not sure how they were envisioning the hydrogen storage - I think it was all to be in the fuel cell itself in some distant breakthrough were FCs are more efficient and energy-dense than they're ever likely to be. I do know that they were dreaming up a "solid state" FC that was a closed-loop system and was "charged" by applying outside power to generate H2 via electrolysis.

There was some inspiring line in there about "designing ground vehicles to be more like aircraft than cars." It was a beautiful dream of efficiency built on some really bad calculations about FC efficiency and worse assumptions about the nature of H2.

I don't doubt that it might someday be possible, but for now cars need to be about as heavy as they are regardless of powerplant and energy storage - barring some miraculous (and admittedly bizzare) removal of all the SUVs and large trucks out there (owning a Ford Ranger, I'm part of that problem).
 
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idleprocess said:
It only gets about 40 MPG with a range of 80 miles.

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Only thing missing here is the blistering top speed of ~30mph. I've heard the range quoted as anywhere from 60-120 miles, and the reality of it all is that it never has travelled more than about 35 miles between fillups... and again - at a top speed of 30mph. AT 30mph, my Rav will go 165 miles...
 
Hey Cornkid, did you know we can make plastic these days from corn instead of oil? It's a magnificent example of what can be done with modern technology.

Here's the low down on Fuel Cell's, they're just insanely complex, and inefficient batteries. You 'charge' them by putting in Hydrogen. Unfortunately, although Hydrogen is the most abundant element around it's always mated to something.

So we both have $100 to spend on energy. You're in a HyWire , and since you're in a futuristic vehicle, I'm in a Volvo 3CC.

Your car will hold 2 kg of H2. IdleProcess is saying that will take you about 30 miles, but I'm going to be fair and say it will take you 50 miles. This Forbes.com article says H2 is currently about $4-$10 a kg, so we're going to say it takes you $10 ($5/kg) to fill your HyWire and go 50 miles.


Volvo says my car can go 180 miles on a charge. I'm going to grossly over-estimate and say it takes about $6 to charge my 3CC

So out of our $100 I can refuel 16.5 times. If I drive a little aggressively and only get 100 miles on a charge that's 1,650 miles for my $100.

On your $100 you get to refuel 10 times. If you get the full 50 miles every time than that's 500 miles.

Even grossly under-estimating the capabilities of my car, and over-estimating the capabilities of yours I still get to go a little over 3 times as far for my $100. Not to mention that my car cost much much less to buy in the first place.




Which is easier, ordering a CD from Amazon.com or just downloading it from the internet? To be even somewhat efficient, Hydrogen has to be produced in mass quantities, loaded on a truck, and unloaded at a fueling station. Then you have to go to the fueling station and pump it into your car. It takes a lot of time and energy to move all this Hydrogen around. Lets say have to refuel your HyWire once a week. Lets say you do it on your way to school, it probably only takes 5 minutes or so a week to refuel.

Electricity, on the other hand, goes wherever your direct it. It can easily be moved over long distances using the power lines we already have in place. My cell phone battery is never dead because I pop it on the charger every night. My 3CC (I wish) is the same way. Take 10 seconds or less to plug it in at night and 5 seconds or less to unplug durring the day. Even if it takes me 15 seconds to plug in and 15 seconds to unplug, I've only spent 3.5 minutes per week worrying about charging.

Half way through the week you're half way out of fuel, to take a longer trip you might have to stop off and fuel up, adding more time to your fueling duties. I start every day with a full tank, so if I need to run some extra errands half way through the week it's no big deal.

You're more than welcome to keep your HyWire, but I"ll stick with my 3CC any day /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
funny this is beaten in all aspects by a lowly oil burning moped.i got 50+mpg from my last modded puch.top speed of 46mph.chases away mosquitos too.
a fcv has a long ways to go.

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Darell said:
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idleprocess said:
It only gets about 40 MPG with a range of 80 miles.

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Only thing missing here is the blistering top speed of ~30mph. I've heard the range quoted as anywhere from 60-120 miles, and the reality of it all is that it never has travelled more than about 35 miles between fillups... and again - at a top speed of 30mph. AT 30mph, my Rav will go 165 miles...

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idleprocess said:
Oh well - maybe I'll just have to settle for a Civic Hybrid with its measly 46/51 MPG when it's configured with a pedestrian 5-speed manual transmission.

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If only Honda (or Toyota for that matter with the Prius) Made them so that they could run on renewable fuels like E85 or biodiesel. >sigh<

Great fuel economy is wonderful (wish we had more people focused on that) but it won't get us off of imported oil. E85, biodiesel and green electric drive will get us off of imported petroleum.

There was a feature on NPR recently about NeoCons that are for high efficiency... they see the way oil imports put our country at risk.
 
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Wolfen said:
...Still I want a hybrid dielsel minivan

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Daimler/Chrysler is got a prototype right now in the field being tested in Kansas City.

Its a delivevy van but the concept is there.

hybrid_sprinter_1.jpg
 
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