Emoli and LiFePo4 cells

[rizky_p]

Ok i just realized that Emoly and LifePo4 are not the same. Geez!

But why arent many online dealers selling emoly? it seems to be a good lithium and good capacity too compared to LiFePo4 cells.

Thanks.

 

[mdocod]

Good question, these ought to be available as raw cells from RC hobby sites and stuff.

 

[Fallingwater]

Emoli cells were supposed to be the newest hotness in the RC world, but most people were disappointed. Apparently they can't handle the high discharge rates many models need. Some people keep using them in low power planes, but A123/LiFe cells blow them into the weeds.

Read this thread I opened on RCG some time ago for more info.

 

[rizky_p]

thanks for the link.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Emoli cells were supposed to be the newest hotness in the RC world, but most people were disappointed. Apparently they can't handle the high discharge rates many models need. Some people keep using them in low power planes, but A123/LiFe cells blow them into the weeds.

Read this thread I opened on RCG some time ago for more info.

I don't do RC, but it is pretty obvious that the A123's are not necessary for our light hotwires. We don't use anywhere near the amp output of the Emoli, nor need the ultra fast recharging in the field they desire.

With our flashlights, there is an advantage in being able to charge Emoli cells with any of the typical 3.7V Lithium chargers, rather than the different charging requirement of the A123 cells. The Emoli have a higher battery capacity, and a more rigorously constructed can....and as a result are a bit heavier.

You need to bore out a C Mag slightly with a KD Brake hone for either A123 or Emoli cell. If you use them in a D Mag, easiest thing is to buy a segment of white PVC 1.25" pipe. Cut it lengthwise to make a clamshell, & tape it holding your A123 or Emoli cells. You have to get the right length for the mag you desire since they are longer than a typical "D" cell. You can use battery magnets to hold the cells in contact with each other if more than one in your light.

Emoli's became harder to find because several of the individuals who were selling them as new, unused (not welded or soldered) cells were shut down when manufacturer discovered they were being diverted for RC unintneded use, instead of in Milwaukee V28 drill packs. This posts discusses it.

I had bought 10 from this guy who was selling them as individual new cells before he got shut off. So the biggest issue for us flashlight modders is getting the cells in good condition. There have been some selling them to our community after finding them on EBay. They are in varying degrees of having been used/abused/soldered/welded, so take that into account.

You can buy them on Ebay as the V28 Battery Pack, such as this listing and take it apart yourself.

Here is a pdf several page testing resource for the Emolis.

 

[Fallingwater]

Do they have the legal right to shut down people selling parts of their products?
That seems a bit weird.

I agree on A123 cells being overkill for most flashlights, of course.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Do they have the legal right to shut down people selling parts of their products?
That seems a bit weird.

I agree on A123 cells being overkill for most flashlights, of course.

When I spoke with the guy from Big E-RC, after he stopped selling them, he had been getting them "under the table" through a manufacturing distributor with a specific intended end product. Since they were pristine, new cells, Emoli felt they had legal exposure if anything went wrong--espeiclally when they heard these were being back-channeled to RC guys who abuse the hell out of their batteries.

Essentially if they didn't cut off this channel, they would have been seen as implicitly endorsing their use/abuse by the RC crowd. In the Milwaukee V28 packs, there is a PCB that protects them against overcharging/discharging and does balance charging...so if people rip them out of that pack, at least they had some defeated safety measures in place that would be a liability defense.

 

[Northern Lights]

Jim Jones and I have found emoli and A123 particuliarly useful for high amp bulbs e.g. 5761 and 64430 when a small diameter light is desired and there are other advantages of the "safe' lithium. These two cells can handle a lot of amps and do not drop voltage, A123 discharge curves on the 5761 look similiar to regulated versions. That means a bright steady output. Jim has a lot of posts about his mods and sells some mods with these batteries, he also sells some emoli and A123 cells loose.

A 3C size 5761 powered by A123 is my favorite hot wire at the moment.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello LuxLuthor,

I have to agree with Northern Lights. I just finished testing some of the 18650 A123 cells and I am very impressed with their performance. In addition, they are safe to use.

To put them to the test, I charged them like a normal Li-Ion cell. After a series of test runs up to and including discharging at 20 amps, I ran another test at 1 amp and observed no degradation at all.

The kid gloves are off with these cells. They can take abuse similar to what we put NiMh cells through, and they just keep coming back for more.

In multi cell applications, these cells provide performance and safety without the added complexity of protection circuits. Unfortunately, they suffer from fairly low capacity.

I might also add that Emoli has been non cooperative in providing me cells for evaluation. They may consider it, once they have visited my factory to evaluate my battery production facilities... They are very protective of who gets their cells.

Tom

 

[Northern Lights]

The BC-6 I have been happy with and posting about has charging programs specifically for A123, Lipo, and li-ion; you can change the amps and voltage paramaters and make custom presest for packs in all 6 chemistry modes that the charger handles too. lipo is 3.7 so should handle the emoli from what I read. I charge my light with a jack, no series charging problems with these cells, at 5 amps! I get back into service in about 15 minutes. That is quick.

 

[Fallingwater]

Essentially if they didn't cut off this channel, they would have been seen as implicitly endorsing their use/abuse by the RC crowd. In the Milwaukee V28 packs, there is a PCB that protects them against overcharging/discharging and does balance charging...so if people rip them out of that pack, at least they had some defeated safety measures in place that would be a liability defense.

I don't get it.
If a liability issue popped up, couldn't they just go for the "it's your own damn fault" line, since the user has disabled the factory safety circuitry?
I don't see how they could be held liable for a user who uses a pack in a way it was never intended to be used.
Car manufacturers aren't held liable if the end user installs a huge turbocharger, blows the engine and smashes the car against a tree. And they must know that many end users do just that...

 

[LuxLuthor]

I don't get it.
If a liability issue popped up, couldn't they just go for the "it's your own damn fault" line, since the user has disabled the factory safety circuitry?
I don't see how they could be held liable for a user who uses a pack in a way it was never intended to be used.
Car manufacturers aren't held liable if the end user installs a huge turbocharger, blows the engine and smashes the car against a tree. And they must know that many end users do just that...

Two things.

Welcome to the legal nightmare of America, where frivolous suits are handed out like candy corn.

These were not "former pack cells" where people were defeating safety measures. The cells I got were new, individual cells. They were supposed to have gone into packs with safety protection PCB's, only they were diverted by the now shut down distributor into the Big E-RC individual cell sales primarily to RC users.

I'm not saying the A123 cells aren't also great, but this topic was started by someone asking about the Emoli in particular....which have a more durable can, higher mAh capacity, normal Li-Ion/LiPo 3.7V nominal charging protocol, and virtually the same size as their A123 counterparts. The higher amp output of the A123 is just not needed by the flashlight modder, so that's not a reason to promote them selectively. It's more a question of availability...but there are plenty of Emoli V28 packs being sold on EBay.

 

[Northern Lights]

One difference between emoli and A123 was the nominal voltage. A123 was very good with the 5761 but a soft start is needed with the emoli., Two A123 are 10 mm shorter than two emoli and allowed the room for a charging jack in the body. The difference in amp output was never part or consideration in the mods I have made. Very similiar, yes, but the differences are not necessarily negligeable, depends on what you set out to do. I agree with Lux, it depends on what you want to do, both cells have different good qualities with some interchangeability.

 

[Fallingwater]

Welcome to the legal nightmare of America, where frivolous suits are handed out like candy corn.

Yeah, your country is sort of famous for this stuff, but I thought there might have been a tiny bit of sense in all the madness

These were not "former pack cells" where people were defeating safety measures. The cells I got were new, individual cells. They were supposed to have gone into packs with safety protection PCB's, only they were diverted by the now shut down distributor into the Big E-RC individual cell sales primarily to RC users.

So I take it that if the distributor went to buying finished battery packs, ripping them open and selling the individual cell the whole issue wouldn't exist, right?
I'm not asking from a practical point of view, as doing that would have probably caused costs to go up too much. I just want to understand the legal issue.

I'm not saying the A123 cells aren't also great, but this topic was started by someone asking about the Emoli in particular....which have a more durable can, higher mAh capacity, normal Li-Ion/LiPo 3.7V nominal charging protocol, and virtually the same size as their A123 counterparts. The higher amp output of the A123 is just not needed by the flashlight modder, so that's not a reason to promote them selectively

Right. If it wasn't for the hugely increased safety, I don't think anyone in the flashlight world would care about A123/LiFe. Not at the current energy density, anyway.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Yeah, your country is sort of famous for this stuff, but I thought there might have been a tiny bit of sense in all the madness

Fat chance. The legal community writes the laws to protect their own self interests, and are "in bed" with the national Democratic party, so nearly impossible to enact any serious legal reforms or cutbacks in their power.

So I take it that if the distributor went to buying finished battery packs, ripping them open and selling the individual cell the whole issue wouldn't exist, right?
I'm not asking from a practical point of view, as doing that would have probably caused costs to go up too much. I just want to understand the legal issue.

I think ripping open a V28 pack which can be obtained readily at hardware stores, EBay, online tool stores, and selling them would not have allowed Emoli to find the raw cell distributor to cut them off...but if there is a USA/Canada online "storefront" that is selling their products, Emoli could easily hire an attorney and shut them down.

Major corporations like McDonalds, Disney, Apple routinely pursue legal action against people/small companies who are doing things with their corporate name/image/products that they dislike. Who knows if Emoli would bother Big E-RC.com if they started selling them from packs.

The biggest issue with getting either Emoli or A123 cells from used packs on Ebay, etc. etc., is the reasonable chance that these are end-life packs being dumped with very few cycles left on them. You just don't know one way or the other....and they are not cheap.

 

[ICUDoc]

Hello LuxLuthor,

I have to agree with Northern Lights. I just finished testing some of the 18650 A123 cells and I am very impressed with their performance. In addition, they are safe to use.

Tom

SilverFox I thought that A123 didn't make 18650 sized cells?
It was my impression that these are LiFePo4 chemistry but made by a different company or companies. The trick is to get the chemistry you want: F series cells have a 5C discharge, FP are 20C. A123s are different.
I have used the 26650 A123s a lot in RC and they are unbelievably good. I routinely draw 40 to 60 amps for minutes at a time and no problems. Some setups are 1500-2000 watts (peak) on 10 cells!!! Or more!! They recharge fast and seem to handle deep discharge just fine (so far). And unlike the LiPolys a decent crash won't make them blowup.
Edit: Ooops- Just saw your post elsewhere- as usual SilverFox you know all this already!!

 

[SilverFox]

Hello David,

A123 finally released their 18650 sized cells. I believe the Black and Deker VPX? battery packs have 2 cells in each of their tool battery packs.

They have the same performance as the 26650 cells, but their capacity is only 1100 mAh.

Tom

 

[rizky_p]

...

 

[ICUDoc]

Hi Tom
Excellent I'll chase it up and see what I can find!

 

[SnowplowTortoise]

If I understood correctly, Northern Lights is writing that you can charge these cells in a pack without balancing? This would be a big advantage in that you could use very cheap lithium pack charger. I'm very attraced to the safety aspect but am not ready to pony up the cash for a good balance charger.

Also, hope this isn't too far off topic, but FYI, Home Depot is dumping the B&D VPX combination charger and 1 cell pack for $25. Not a terrible deal for two 18650 A123s and a dedicated charger.