Energy : Production, Storage, Efficiency, Solutions

kerneldrop

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fuel increase solution

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idleprocess

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It's not a traditional hybrid in that the ICE* engine only generated electricity for the electric motors to use.
.. there is also batteries to be a buffer/aid the electric generation.
That would be a variant of the strong series hybrid where the engine exists to spin the generator although perhaps more of an EV with a range extender. Concept didn't really take off in the automotive world, however as jtr has mentioned this has been standard in diesel-electric locomotives for going on a century (albeit mostly for reasons of packaging - a mechanical transmission up to the task would be impractical). The Volt was initially proposed to have this arrangement but instead opted for the ubiquitous parallel hybrid (strong-parallel hybrid in the Volt's case) to improve efficiency when operating on gasoline. The BMW i3 REX used this arrangement with the engine operating purely as a range extender for what was otherwise am EV, but its popularity in the market was meh.

I've always been puzzled myself why automobiles use huge engines which output many times the average power the car needs
Peak demand vs average demand. While it might take a mere ~20HP for a modern ~1½ ton vehicle to maintain highway speeds, it would take an unacceptable period of time for that same ~20HP engine to accelerate to highway speeds.

and have a highly complex multi-gear transmission.
Low RPM limits on reciprocating-piston engines relative to electric motors. Stress on the crankshaft scales to something like rotational speed to the fourth power, putting a hard limit on how fast the engine can turn.

That said, the aforementioned system would have been the way to go until we had batteries of suitable energy density to give vehicles adequate range.
Took the development of NiMH with sufficient energy/power density to make that juice worth the squeeze. I gather that power electronics also weren't compact/cheap/capable enough until about this timeframe to manage the DC:AC conversion gracefully.
 

scout24

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The required current draw, the heat, the gigantic safety concerns vs. the current accident protocols for safety workers and crews, nevermind the actual fanbase. I'm sure there's an OEM push to develop this, but can't see it in my lifetime. It'ss bad enoigh now, this would push viewership into CNN territory.
 

bykfixer

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Noise, the smell of spent fuel and burnt rubber has a huge affect on NASCAR fans at the track. First time I went to the track I thought "man this is bad" but next day I thought "man I'm going back there" and did for years.

Take away the sound of unmuffled V8 engines screaming at 8000 rpms, along with the aroma of spent racing fuel wofting in the air and you end up with what pretty much amounts to 40 drivers making left turns over and over in a life size remote control cars. Boooooooring!

But if it leads to being able to swap out a spent battery for a charged battery in the time it takes to change out 4 wheels, which then leads to me being able to do same in my car in a few minutes……that would be ok with me.
 
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jtr1962

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You'll still have the burnt rubber smell, perhaps even more so given the huge torque of electric motors. And don't kid yourself, electric motors putting out something like 700 HP continuously in a small package aren't exactly quiet. Far less noisy then V8s, but far from quiet. The burnt fuel smell, whatever it may do to create "atmosphere", is a carcinogen. Better off without it, especially for the people that work there. Indy car fans live without it given that the cars burn ethanol.

Don't people go to races for the crashes, even if they won't admit it? Those will still happen, regardless of how the cars are powered.

Yeah, this is either going to involve lots of battery swapping, or using inductive pickup at speed. Formula E is working on the latter, but so far only in stationary applications. If they can get it to work at racing speeds, the cars would likely charge in one section of the track. They'll still need to pit for tires and broken parts. Inductive charging on the fly will be far more useful to you than battery swapping, if they can get it to work. That said, battery charging in a few minutes is going to happen fairly soon.
 
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orbital

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In twenty years, nascar may have a small electric motor to help get out of pit stalls.
When I say small electric motor, I'm saying the stater motor ..:yellowlaugh: lol
Nascar will never go electric, ever.

Sports car racing, which is more of what I'm into, there's lots of hybrid tech & that's increasing.

Nearly 10 years ago the Porsche 919 hybrid prototype used a V4 twin turbocharged engine,
one turbo to force air, the other spun a small generator to constantly charge the battery unit.
The first time heard this , it blew my mind....
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idleprocess

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The required current draw, the heat, the gigantic safety concerns vs. the current accident protocols for safety workers and crews
Formula E seems to have figured this out in 2014.

nevermind the actual fanbase
This is the real impediment to development of NASCAR electric series. I could imagine an arms-length support series being embraced by NASCAR as a hedge, but not as a replacement.

Glancing at Chauncy's link, it seems more likely that hydrogen-fueled V8s will be demonstrated - simpler development path and keep much of the visceral sensation associated with stock car races.
 

jtr1962

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Glancing at Chauncy's link, it seems more likely that hydrogen-fueled V8s will be demonstrated - simpler development path and keep much of the visceral sensation associated with stock car races.
That seems more plausible. Keep everything but the toxic gasoline fumes. The loud V8s are probably the biggest draw anyway.
 

turbodog

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Ok, I heard back on the geothermal question. I can't copy/paste the email in its entirety, but will see what I can do.

This is coming from probably the best petroleum engineer specializing in drilling, hole integrity, etc on the planet.

Executive summary: pipe dream, no pun intended.

Issues:
1. energy delivery that far underground from surface
2. if deliver energy via downhole device, electronic component integrity at those elevated temps
3. since no casing is installed, wall stresses will implode hole at point of penetration
4. heat loss as thermal fluid comes back to surface will be massive
5. heat transfer in granite is low... this leads to rapid thermal depletion of the surrounding area
6. if anything like this was to work... it would need to be twin horizontal bores with a large fracking field between them to give a larger flow and large enough heat producing area
7. issues with elastomers & production equipment working at those temps

As an aside to #2, NASA is developing silicon carbide chips good to 500C for the venus proble.
 
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jtr1962

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Ok, I heard back on the geothermal question. I can't copy/paste the email in its entirety, but will see what I can do.

This is coming from probably the best petroleum engineer specializing in drilling, hole integrity, etc on the planet.

Executive summary: pipe dream, no pun intended.

Issues:
1. energy delivery that far underground from surface
2. if deliver energy via downhole device, electronic component integrity at those elevated temps
3. since no casing is installed, wall stresses will implode hole at point of penetration
4. heat loss as thermal fluid comes back to surface will be massive
5. heat transfer in granite is low... this leads to rapid thermal depletion of the surrounding area
6. if anything like this was to work... it would need to be twin horizontal bores with a large fracking field between them to give a larger flow and large enough heat producing area

As an aside to #2, NASA is developing silicon carbide chips good to 500C for the venus proble.
If I understand the technology correctly, they claim the device will "cauterize" the walls, effectively making a casing as you go along. If so, then #3 is less of a concern.

#4 would be addressed by #6. Make lots of small horizontal bores, or a few very large ones, at depth, but have only one bore to get to the surface. The fluid will flow up rapidly, giving it less time to lose heat. This is the same principal as water cooling where a high flow rate through any given size pipe has a smaller temperature rise, except here we're concerned with temperature drop.

That said, I tend to agree that there are loads of practical problems to solve here, not the least of which is having a fluid loop with a length of tens of miles. We might well develop working fusion before we can make this work.
 

turbodog

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If I understand the technology correctly, they claim the device will "cauterize" the walls, effectively making a casing as you go along. If so, then #3 is less of a concern.

...

Well we've got a disagreement between 'they claim/project/anticipate' with literally the top downhole guy on the planet saying a flat 'nope'.

Additionally... the rock has to go somewhere. I'm envisioning more of a sandblasting process (as per the video) where the ablated material would attack the walls as it exits the borehole.
 

KITROBASKIN

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Seems like drilling issues will keep this from blossoming. "Tip of the Spear" working conditions in such an enclosed space, feedback questions with regard to determining rate of drilling, irregular 'cauterizing' with the difficulty of keeping the working tip centered in hole? Cost/benefit ratio? Hopefully it will work.

Thanks Turbodog.
 

jtr1962

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Well we've got a disagreement between 'they claim/project/anticipate' with literally the top downhole guy on the planet saying a flat 'nope'.

Additionally... the rock has to go somewhere. I'm envisioning more of a sandblasting process (as per the video) where the ablated material would attack the walls as it exits the borehole.
I don't disagree with any of that but it'll be interesting to see what this leads to. It still sounds very promising for less ambitious drilling projects than what they're attempting. Maybe Elon Musk should fund this since he's already looking at new technologies for boring holes.

BTW, when you said the top drilling/downhole expert on the planet, a picture of Bruce Willis in Armageddon popped into my mind. ;)
 

kerneldrop

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If they find something that can take the heat then they'll figure out the rest.
 

idleprocess

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5. heat transfer in granite is low... this leads to rapid thermal depletion of the surrounding area
Drilling new boreholes practically on a schedule is a fact of life for existing geothermal that's not next to near-surface magma ala Iceland's plants.
 

turbodog

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Seems like drilling issues will keep this from blossoming. "Tip of the Spear" working conditions in such an enclosed space, feedback questions with regard to determining rate of drilling, irregular 'cauterizing' with the difficulty of keeping the working tip centered in hole? Cost/benefit ratio? Hopefully it will work.

Thanks Turbodog.

His words are (relating to improving existing versus possible new tech/processes):

"We will fund new science, even if there's zero chance of it working. We will not fund enhancement of existing tools or deployment of knowledge or practices. The low hanging fruit in that is massive. How you use a tool is always more important than the tool you use."

This person is on the DOE FORGE team. Please do not try to unearth their identity. Just so happens that they are working on improving geothermal by working on the 'making a hole' component of it.

 
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