Energy : Production, Storage, Efficiency, Solutions

fulee9999

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Mar 3, 2021
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I did not want to start a new thread just for this, but this seems like a mildly suitable topic, so here goes:
Duracell Procell CR123 Made in USA... How 'bout that?! Other than the SureFire and Battery Station batteries I don't recall ever seeing one made in the US. All my other CR123s are usually china, indonesia or japan. Supposedly it's a 1400 mah battery, which should be plenty for flashlights as well.

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1666117129102.png
 

fulee9999

Enlightened
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Mar 3, 2021
Messages
717
Huhh, interesting... My other Duracell and Panasonic are not US made

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But I've checked my Streamlight, and that is, in fact, "Made in U.S.A.".
 

knucklegary

Flashlight Enthusiast
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NorCal, Central Coast
I did not want to start a new thread just for this, but this seems like a mildly suitable topic, so here goes:
Duracell Procell CR123 Made in USA... How 'bout that?! Other than the SureFire and Battery Station batteries I don't recall ever seeing one made in the US. All my other CR123s are usually china, indonesia or japan. Supposedly it's a 1400 mah battery, which should be plenty for flashlights as well.

View attachment 33602

View attachment 33601
Very cool! I believe Procell comes in D & C cells. Good chance they're also USA. Did you find those at Z-Battery?
 

raggie33

*the raggedier*
Joined
Aug 11, 2003
Messages
13,499
Filled up my tank today for less then 2 bucks lol . God I love this gas bike. The other day I was in traffic jam some moron wrecked . I just turned of engine and peddled right buy on the side of the road
 

KITROBASKIN

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Could not decide on a better place to put this information coming from a member of diysolarforum. It is about lithium batteries and their ¨best" use by consumers:

¨In most Li-Ion chemistries, the cathode material is the weakest link. LFP cathode is the most rugged of all lithium-ion batteries. LFP strength is the iron which provides vertical lattice support after most of the lithium has been removed from cathode near full charging. LFP downside is the cathode produces less electrode voltage so cell has less overall voltage. Other Li-Ion cathode lattices become weak and vulnerable to collapse damage when cell is fully charged. This is why EV's avoid fully charging their batteries as it reduces their battery longevity.

LFP electrode potential is almost perfectly flat across its discharge. Most of the SoC voltage change in LFP vs SoC is due to graphite electrode potential change. Graphite electrode potential ranges from about 0.25v at full discharge to near zero volts at full charge. Negative anode potential subtracts from positive cathode electrode potential to yield battery terminal voltage.

The lower overall voltage of LFP also provides more margin to high voltage limit of electrolyte which has greater decomposition breakdown above about 4.3-4.4 vdc of cell voltage.

Most all lithium-ion battery electrolytes and graphite anode is pretty much the same. The improved fire resistance of LFP is due to LFP cathode releases less oxygen when a thermal runaway occurs, bursting the cell.

For LFP, the anode graphite is the weakest link. Graphite expands about 11% in volume when a cell is fully charged. This puts stress on the graphite lattice and fractures the Solid Electrolyte Layer (SEI) which coats the graphite to keep electrons in graphite from escaping into electrolyte which causes chemical decomposition of the electrolyte.

SEI protective layer is regrown during subsequent charging cycles but consumes some of free lithium and electrolyte to rebuild the layer reducing cell capacity over cycles. This is the normal inevitable cause of cell aging. The SEI repair also thickens the SEI layer which increases cell impedance over time causing greater terminal voltage slump for given cell current.

Only LTO cells have greater cycling lifetime on anode. LTO is the negative anode, replacing graphite, and has little expansion due to full charging. Downside is LTO anode has a large electrode voltage which subtracts from positive cathode voltage. LTO cells are usually made with NMC or LFP cathode material. LTO anode and LFP cathode gives the best longevity but lowest cell voltage.

LFP can be run over a wider SoC range than most other Li-Ion chemistries. Stressing of graphite at full charge, and lithium metal creation near negative anode at very deep discharge are the two most damaging abuse factors. High charge and discharge current on LFP cells is more degrading than SoC range but this can be mitigated by electrode thickness of given cell design.

Most of the DIY'er 'blue' prismatic cells are thick electrode design to give highest capacity for weight and volume to the detriment of peak discharge and charging current capability. On these cells it is better not to regularly exceed 0.5C cell current than worry about SoC range.

Many DIY'ers do more damage to their LFP cells by reducing peak charging voltage thinking it helps extend battery longevity which results in cells not getting sufficient cell balancing by BMS causing them to age unevenly. It is okay to do this, but they need balancing periodically, like once every month, to avoid getting too out of balance on cells. Greater discharge and charge current usage accelerated misbalance of cells by amplifying any mismatch between cells.

Match cells are not just cells with same capacity. Matched cells also have similar cell voltage slump (overpotential voltage) for same cell current. Series cells also need to be kept at similar temperature as cooler temps have a big effect on cell overpotential voltage versus cell current.¨


Post #3
 

Burgess

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USA
Streamlight, Rayovac and Panasonic 123's are US made as well.
Same factory as the SureFire, Duracell and Battery Station numbers.

True !
ALL CR-123A cells Made in U.S.A.
are produced in this factory:

Panasonic Energy Corporation of America
1 Panasonic Dr Columbus GA 31907
 

orbital

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+

All good Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) brands have very high quality Battery Management Systems.
Basically a small motherboard, the BMS controls charging & all safety perimeters.

example: If you have your battery in a below freezing situation, they can be connected to solar panels, but NO current is going the cells.
You may think it's charging, but it's not,,,, and that's a good thing.

LFPs' are expensive; but with their strong performance complimenting a long service life, nothing is even close.

Currently have approx. 7.7kWh of LFP in 24V configuration.
 
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Assuming any technical problems are ironed out, this looks extremely promising. It ticks all the boxes:

1) 5 minute recharge via fluid exchange, not much more cumbersome battery swapping
2) Ability to recharge at slower rates without swapping the fluid. This is a biggie for me because without it you would be tied to service stations for recharging. As we all know, they take you to the cleaners.
3) High energy density. An 85 kW-hr battery at the low end of the estimated energy density would only weigh about 155 kg (340 lbs), or the same weight as a very fat person. On the higher end you're talking only 110 kg or so. Considering the rest of the drivetrain of an EV is lighter than the engine/transmission of an ICE, this means EVs will weigh the same or less as equivalent ICEs.
4) Potential to electrify commercial aviation. Surprisingly, the economics for short haul electrified aviation already pan out. This would make longer haul flights viable.
5) Ability to cater to the ~⅓ of Americans without potential access to home charging, mostly apartment dwellers.
6) Lower cost. The battery is the single most expensive part of an EV. Get the price down enough, EVs could end up costing less than an equivalent ICE.

I just hope this isn't like lots of other promising battery tech that never saw the light of day.

It is really just a matter of time before we have 600 mile ranges. I like the liquid "fuel" w.r.t. batteries. A fuel station likely only needs to infrequently top up. It would need massive electrical supply though. A heck of a lot of energy is dispensed at a gas station.
 

idleprocess

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Could not decide on a better place to put this information coming from a member of diysolarforum. It is about lithium batteries and their ¨best" use by consumers:

¨In most Li-Ion chemistries, the cathode material is the weakest link. LFP cathode is the most rugged of all lithium-ion batteries. LFP strength is the iron which provides vertical lattice support after most of the lithium has been removed from cathode near full charging. LFP downside is the cathode produces less electrode voltage so cell has less overall voltage. Other Li-Ion cathode lattices become weak and vulnerable to collapse damage when cell is fully charged. This is why EV's avoid fully charging their batteries as it reduces their battery longevity.
All good Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) brands have very high quality Battery Management Systems.
Basically a small motherboard, the BMS controls charging & all safety perimeters.

example: If you have your battery in a below freezing situation, they can be connected to solar panels, but NO current is going the cells.
You may think it's charging, but it's not,,,, and that's a good thing.

LFPs' are expensive; but with their strong performance complimenting a long service life, nothing is even close.
I've pondered a moderate LFP battery bank for UPS purposes. EG4 seems to make reasonable modular units and good inverters to pair with them.
 

KITROBASKIN

Flashlight Enthusiast
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New Mexico, USA
I've pondered a moderate LFP battery bank for UPS purposes. EG4 seems to make reasonable modular units and good inverters to pair with them.
Best I can tell, the forum owner is very big on EG4 stuff, as are his acolytes. Know that their inverters are meant to be used; their standby draw is totally lacking in appeal.

Victron is a choice for low standby consumption.

LFP batteries are not indestructible. For optimum use some finesse is involved. Best to avoid batteries in series unless under the control of an overall battery balancer, thinking.
 

Dave D

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Andalusia, España
For over 12 months we've been running solar production and storage, which during 2022, enabled us to produce 88% of all the electricity that we used.

We have 11 x 540w Solar panels and a BYD 16kWh Lithium Phosphate battery. We are grid tied but in the event of blackouts the Fronius inverter, after about 40 seconds, switches the house to battery back up.

I have been very pleased with the system and during 2022 we used 566kWh and produced 519kWh.

We also have a single solar water heating panel with a 200l storage tank.

IMG_5604.jpeg
 

idleprocess

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decamped
Best I can tell, the forum owner is very big on EG4 stuff, as are his acolytes
Like almost anything enthusiast - people tend to hitch their identities to their choices.

Given that this decision is a long ways out I should perhaps be less interested in specific components at this point.
 

orbital

Flashlight Enthusiast
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Feb 8, 2007
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WI
Best I can tell, the forum owner is very big on EG4 stuff, as are his acolytes. Know that their inverters are meant to be used; their standby draw is totally lacking in appeal.

Victron is a choice for low standby consumption.

LFP batteries are not indestructible. For optimum use some finesse is involved. Best to avoid batteries in series unless under the control of an overall battery balancer, thinking.
+

You do alot in powering your house via solar. If I remember right, you have a 24V AGM bank.
In however many years you need to replace your storage, you can get away with four 12V 300Ah LFP batteries, keeping the 24V base.
Wiring would be super straightforward w/ just four LFP & those units would take every bit of your panels juice.

Four 300Ah will give around 15~16kWh,, that'll run for years & years..
figure a bit north of $3600 keeping an eye on deals.

That may be a bit more storage than what you need, you can always do four 200Ah

=the BMS will take care or your balancing, you can also connect 2 in series directly to each other to balance,,, that's actually written in my manual.
 

turbodog

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Jun 23, 2003
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central time
For over 12 months we've been running solar production and storage, which during 2022, enabled us to produce 88% of all the electricity that we used.

We have 11 x 540w Solar panels and a BYD 16kWh Lithium Phosphate battery. We are grid tied but in the event of blackouts the Fronius inverter, after about 40 seconds, switches the house to battery back up.

I have been very pleased with the system and during 2022 we used 566kWh and produced 519kWh.

We also have a single solar water heating panel with a 200l storage tank.

This is your heater and tank?

1675808623274.png


I had a relative that did this. He used copper pipe, painted black, in his gutters. Water got to scalding temps.
 

KITROBASKIN

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New Mexico, USA
Thanks orbital. These days have been taken up with the idea of getting one of two LFP batteries to be better balanced internally. Reading up on diysolarforum is very helpful but detailed.

The forum owner over there has some really nice videos. His enthusiasm is really nice.
 

orbital

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Just that the LFP need to be the exact same batteries in series for a number of reasons.
The balancing is really not an issue.

For my series, initially checked my voltage to see they were within .oxxV they were.
Connected them together & function 100% as expected.
 

KITROBASKIN

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New Mexico, USA
Checking at high knee (near 100%) for balance will show if cells are closely balanced. Because of the low resistance of LFP, their charge/discharge curve is quite flat and in that flatness imbalanced cells will not be apparent. But then again, the system works; all good. I am wanting to have more usable capacity, even if it is only a few percentage more.
 
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