Darell
Flashaholic
The Smart was my first thought too, though I guess I never considered it a tall/skinny car. Not when compared to a Tango at least!
EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, part 10
- Thread starter Darell
- Start date
Help Support Candle Power Flashlight Forum
PlayboyJoeShmoe
Flashaholic
I don't THINK it was a smart especially if they are two tone like the link.
This was all silver/gray.
This was all silver/gray.
Darell
Flashaholic
Turns out that they can paint them anything/anyway they like. 
PlayboyJoeShmoe
Flashaholic
I suppose it's POSSIBLE it was a Smart.
I've been watching to see it or another.
I've been watching to see it or another.
PlayboyJoeShmoe
Flashaholic
I have concluded that I MUST have seen a Smart.
I say this because I have since seen two more and I can hardly believe they are safe according to the Gov't!!!!
I say this because I have since seen two more and I can hardly believe they are safe according to the Gov't!!!!
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
Safe is always relative. We have plenty of cars and SUVs that will barely make it around mountain curves at freeway speed. We have motorcycles with so much power that they will pull the front wheel off the ground when you crack the throttle at 90 mph.
My GUESS is that the feds require a certain level of safety equipment, and some level of passenger protection. That's different from requiring a car to actually be safe.
Safety recalls tend to happen when a safety device is badly designed or implemented.
I could, of course, be wrong.
Daniel
My GUESS is that the feds require a certain level of safety equipment, and some level of passenger protection. That's different from requiring a car to actually be safe.
Safety recalls tend to happen when a safety device is badly designed or implemented.
I could, of course, be wrong.
Daniel
Bright Scouter
Enlightened
OK everyone,,, I am wondering if anyone has an electric assist for their bicycle. I am considering that if I can find one that I can modify to assist to any speed. I think most are set to cut off at a certain speed? Like between 20 and 25? Anyone have one or have tried one that actually seemed to work?
HarryN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Hi, I am starting the newish vehicle process. Not that my opinion actually matters since this will be my wife's vehicle, but of course we are "sensitive" to the normal energy / emissions / cost aspects
HarryN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Hi, I am starting the newish vehicle process. Not that my opinion actually matters since this will be my wife's vehicle, but of course we are "sensitive" to the normal energy / emissions / cost aspects.
(Daniel knows what I am talking about :wave: )
Anyway, we are looking around for a 6 passenger plus baggage vehicle to replace our 96 Dodge Caravan. Please don't bother suggesting cramming us into a Prius.
One of its very useful features of the old Dodge is an "almost real time" miles per gallon indication - which actually is pretty good. Using this "indicator", syn oil, good tires, and driving at at the mpg sweet spot of 68mpg, in cruise control, I manage to eek out around 24 - 25 mpg on the hwy. City driving, which is actually more of our use, is a different matter.
I managed to average 25 mpg on a rental Caravan on a recent drive to AZ and back to the Bay Area, but - for some reason, it did not have the real time mpg indicator.
With this in mind, it is interesting that a hybrid GMC Yukon would actually be a better choice (for fuel consumption) than any of the new mini vans on the market. The SO is not convinced
I am actually interested in the potential of using a plug in hybrid to help offset my home electricity cost. I work from home, so we are always here, and our electric bill shows it. It isn't the 11 cent / kwh tier that is a problem, it is the 33 cent / kwh tier that hurts. At 33 cents / kwh, that is almost burn gas to make electricity territory - not that I want to, but reality is reality.
Anyway, I wonder if any of the plug in hybrids are set up to provide back up power instead of just sucking it down ?
(Daniel knows what I am talking about :wave: )
Anyway, we are looking around for a 6 passenger plus baggage vehicle to replace our 96 Dodge Caravan. Please don't bother suggesting cramming us into a Prius.
One of its very useful features of the old Dodge is an "almost real time" miles per gallon indication - which actually is pretty good. Using this "indicator", syn oil, good tires, and driving at at the mpg sweet spot of 68mpg, in cruise control, I manage to eek out around 24 - 25 mpg on the hwy. City driving, which is actually more of our use, is a different matter.
I managed to average 25 mpg on a rental Caravan on a recent drive to AZ and back to the Bay Area, but - for some reason, it did not have the real time mpg indicator.
With this in mind, it is interesting that a hybrid GMC Yukon would actually be a better choice (for fuel consumption) than any of the new mini vans on the market. The SO is not convinced
I am actually interested in the potential of using a plug in hybrid to help offset my home electricity cost. I work from home, so we are always here, and our electric bill shows it. It isn't the 11 cent / kwh tier that is a problem, it is the 33 cent / kwh tier that hurts. At 33 cents / kwh, that is almost burn gas to make electricity territory - not that I want to, but reality is reality.
Anyway, I wonder if any of the plug in hybrids are set up to provide back up power instead of just sucking it down ?
Brock
Flashaholic
Ummm, just so you know some of the best gasoline gensets make electricity at about $1.50 per kw. So using gas to generate power, even with a good genset is out of the question. Typical Home Depot backup generators run about $3.00 per kw. You can get some of the larger diesel generators in the $.70 range. Of course this is all at $3.75 for gas and $4.50 for diesel.
A car engine falls somewhere in the $1.50 to $2.00 per kw range, which is why plug in hybrids are gaining in popularity, you can replace that $1.50 of gas with $.11 of electricity from the grid, even your on peak rate of $.33 is WAY cheaper then burning gas.
And if you take in to consideration the emissions from burning gas compared to even the dirtiest diesel fired electrical generating station (Hawaii) is still four times cleaner then a gas car. The typical power plant in the US is about 15 times cleaner then an automobile engine. Just think of the scrubbers and efficiency you can get in a stationary location compared to on a car.
A car engine falls somewhere in the $1.50 to $2.00 per kw range, which is why plug in hybrids are gaining in popularity, you can replace that $1.50 of gas with $.11 of electricity from the grid, even your on peak rate of $.33 is WAY cheaper then burning gas.
And if you take in to consideration the emissions from burning gas compared to even the dirtiest diesel fired electrical generating station (Hawaii) is still four times cleaner then a gas car. The typical power plant in the US is about 15 times cleaner then an automobile engine. Just think of the scrubbers and efficiency you can get in a stationary location compared to on a car.
HarryN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Hi Brock - thanks for the reminder to double check my math on using a car to make power. Maybe I missed a zero somewhere. Cars actually are remakably clean when measuring "conventionally regulated" exhaust emissions. Yes, I know CO2 is a different matter.
Unfortuneately, you are almost right about the dirtiest power generators - around here (SF / Oakland), the absolute dirtiest power comes from all of the container ships coming in burning heavy fuel oil - with absolutely NO cleaning of the exhaust. The particulate from this is a major health problem in Oakland, SF, and Long Beach.
We can thank these ships with their "denser than water tar fuel" for the persistent forever spill here in the bay - which largely sank to the bottom and tarred over everything there.
Sorry for the rant - anyway, thanks for pointing out the questionable use of a car for regular power generation. Maybe save it for emergencies.
Unfortuneately, you are almost right about the dirtiest power generators - around here (SF / Oakland), the absolute dirtiest power comes from all of the container ships coming in burning heavy fuel oil - with absolutely NO cleaning of the exhaust. The particulate from this is a major health problem in Oakland, SF, and Long Beach.
We can thank these ships with their "denser than water tar fuel" for the persistent forever spill here in the bay - which largely sank to the bottom and tarred over everything there.
Sorry for the rant - anyway, thanks for pointing out the questionable use of a car for regular power generation. Maybe save it for emergencies.
BB
Flashlight Enthusiast
Can you do Grid Tied solar? Without any of the rebates, you can probably do $0.25 per kWhr or better... With the old CA $2.50 rebate and the 10% federal, I am down somewhere around $0.14 per kWhr)...
However, the rebates are down to the $1.19 or so per kWhr, and the federal tax credit is about to go away too (IIRC).
There are other issues with adding solar grid tie now in California--you probably have to go with the PG&E E6 time of use plan--and if you can't put off using power in the middle of the day (because of your home office)--your bill may suffer.
Take a look at your monthly/yearly power bill and see how many kWhrs per month/year you use and how large of solar Grid Tied system it would take to offset your usage. This tool does a pretty good job of estimating the output of a grid tied solar array.
Conservation (insulation, ground sourced heat pumps, double pane low E windows, using lower powered computers--like laptops, etc.) can help. Although, if you are in a newer home--your insulation and appliances may not need improvement.
You might want to pickup a Kill-A-Watt meter to look at some of your 120 VAC 15 amp loads (standard wall outlet). At that high of power usage--sounds like you have some large AC loads (like air conditioning) and/or some large office equipment that you use during the day...
Regarding mpg gauge, you might look at the ScanGauge II 3-in-1 Compact Multifunction Vehicle Computer with Customizable Display... Have not tried one myself--but it may fill your need.
-Bill
However, the rebates are down to the $1.19 or so per kWhr, and the federal tax credit is about to go away too (IIRC).
There are other issues with adding solar grid tie now in California--you probably have to go with the PG&E E6 time of use plan--and if you can't put off using power in the middle of the day (because of your home office)--your bill may suffer.
Take a look at your monthly/yearly power bill and see how many kWhrs per month/year you use and how large of solar Grid Tied system it would take to offset your usage. This tool does a pretty good job of estimating the output of a grid tied solar array.
Conservation (insulation, ground sourced heat pumps, double pane low E windows, using lower powered computers--like laptops, etc.) can help. Although, if you are in a newer home--your insulation and appliances may not need improvement.
You might want to pickup a Kill-A-Watt meter to look at some of your 120 VAC 15 amp loads (standard wall outlet). At that high of power usage--sounds like you have some large AC loads (like air conditioning) and/or some large office equipment that you use during the day...
Regarding mpg gauge, you might look at the ScanGauge II 3-in-1 Compact Multifunction Vehicle Computer with Customizable Display... Have not tried one myself--but it may fill your need.
-Bill
Brock
Flashaholic
I would second the scangauge. I have an older SG1 now in our van and the SG2 in our TDI. It really helps you understand how driving style can affect fuel economy. Honestly I think my single biggest improvement in MPG was when I bought the SG 1. It has become sort of a game to see how high I can get my mpg numbers on trips to or from work. You hit one red light at the wrong time and game over
Harry I didn't mean to knock you I was just pointing out that isn't the best way to produce electricity. Actually in our last home I had a line from our garage (4 aut) to my 2000 amp 12v battery bank which in turn fed our 5kw of inverters. In an extended power outage I could idle the TDI and generate 100amps at 12vdc or 1200w. I only had to do this once, the TDI is much more quiet then a genset as well
Darell
Flashaholic
Yeah, as Brock pointed out, this is the sure way to make your electricity MORE expensive. But, modern EVs will have V2G option - so in a pinch you can do it - and doing it with an EV means that you are just storing your cheap electricity for use later - not making it with gasoline.
Darell
Flashaholic
Cars have become remarkably clean at the tailpipe, as you point out. Please do NOT ignore all the upstream pollution of making and delivering that gasoline to your corner station. I'm not railing on you here - but how often do I hear how dirty EVs are because of the power plant emissions (though no tailpipe emissions) and how clean the tailpipe emissions of gasoline cars are today. Oops... what happened to the creation-of-gasoline emissions (including all the electricity that goes into the process!)????
HarryN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Hi BB - I looked at grid tied solar, and just cannot make it a win for me. Selling power at more or less whole sale, then buying it back for retail is not a win. At least using my variation of math, it seems more likely that a solar tied to a few specific "often on" appliances / lights would have more impact on the bill - at a lower cost than a grid tied setup. Plus, the potential benefit of having some back up power. (the grid here is remarkably unreliable)
As far as loads - we do have A/C, but none used in Feb / Mar / Apr, and we have no large computer loads (laptops and LCD screens only). Frankly, if I could buy 5 cent / kwh electricity like my Dad does, I would look strongly at an EV - but it is not even on the radar at this point. I do believe in it strongly enough to go down a PHEV vs HEV though - just in case.
There are times when my driving needs might actually be below 10 kwh / day, so the idea of charging up the PHEV batteries with a solar panel could be interesting at some point, esp if it were car roof mounted. Not sure if that is viable yet.
We do have electric wash / dry / cook, so that is a factor with a family. Hot water is gas.
I don't think our loads are really that high - we even cut our electrical power useage 25 percent compared to last year in April, but still hit strongly into the second tier price. (which is just BS in IMHO)
As far as loads - we do have A/C, but none used in Feb / Mar / Apr, and we have no large computer loads (laptops and LCD screens only). Frankly, if I could buy 5 cent / kwh electricity like my Dad does, I would look strongly at an EV - but it is not even on the radar at this point. I do believe in it strongly enough to go down a PHEV vs HEV though - just in case.
There are times when my driving needs might actually be below 10 kwh / day, so the idea of charging up the PHEV batteries with a solar panel could be interesting at some point, esp if it were car roof mounted. Not sure if that is viable yet.
We do have electric wash / dry / cook, so that is a factor with a family. Hot water is gas.
I don't think our loads are really that high - we even cut our electrical power useage 25 percent compared to last year in April, but still hit strongly into the second tier price. (which is just BS in IMHO)
BB
Flashlight Enthusiast
Harry,
Actually, PG&E sells and buys the power at "retail"... They actually look at the usage and if you used more power, they charge you $0.11 / kWhr, and if you made more than you used, they put $0.11 in the "bank"... At the end of the year, you either pay the negative balance in the bank, or if a positive value, it is set to zero (they will not cut you a check).
Generally, you generate power during the day (meter runs backwards) and use power at night (meter runs forward)... Rates tiers are the same buying or selling. Ideally, you can move your tiered pricing down (say from 100 kWhr per month to 300 kWhrs per month)... You still pay, but know it is at $0.11 per kWhr.
Now, that is the simple explanation... The real one is that you will probably put in E6 Time of Use metering (PDF file)... Charge more for power usage during the day/evening, and less at night. Ideally, you turn the meter backwards at $0.29 per kWhr during the day and run it forwards at $0.09 / kWhr at night.
Because of the TOU pricing, tiered pricing, weekday vs weekend/holiday pricing, and seasonal pricing, the E6 plan is a pain to try and predict how it will affect your bill (should save money over E1 flat rate residential--especially if you can load shift your power to off peak use and turn the meter backwards during the peak times).
If you do it right--you may be paying $0.09 per kWhr for that EV... Much better than $0.33... Plus you have to pay about $5-$6 per month minimum connection charge (that is all I ever pay for the last 2.5 years) to use the utility as a 1 year capacity storage battery...
Going with an Off-Grid system to generate power is a real killer for cost--instead of ~~$0.25 / kWhr for Grid Tied Solar power cost, you are probably looking well north of $1.00 per kWhr for Off Grid power (cost of extra charge controller/off-grid inverter, batteries, battery replacement every 5-10 years, loss opportunity charging--3 day storage vs 1 year "storage" for Grid Tie).
Over on the west side of the bay--we have had a couple hand full of power outages over the last 5 decades that have lasted, at most, a few hours... I like the idea of an off grid capable system--but it was not worth the costs... I just purchased a Honda eu2000i generator, hooked up a manual transfer switch for a few circuits, and store some gas (1-2 gallons per day) for it (or siphon the car if I need more). The last long outage (5 days on the coast) was over fifty years ago.
There are hybrid Grid Tied / Off Grid systems now available--probably a bit more cost effective in the long term. The Xantrex XW system looks pretty nifty.
-Bill
Actually, PG&E sells and buys the power at "retail"... They actually look at the usage and if you used more power, they charge you $0.11 / kWhr, and if you made more than you used, they put $0.11 in the "bank"... At the end of the year, you either pay the negative balance in the bank, or if a positive value, it is set to zero (they will not cut you a check).
Generally, you generate power during the day (meter runs backwards) and use power at night (meter runs forward)... Rates tiers are the same buying or selling. Ideally, you can move your tiered pricing down (say from 100 kWhr per month to 300 kWhrs per month)... You still pay, but know it is at $0.11 per kWhr.
Now, that is the simple explanation... The real one is that you will probably put in E6 Time of Use metering (PDF file)... Charge more for power usage during the day/evening, and less at night. Ideally, you turn the meter backwards at $0.29 per kWhr during the day and run it forwards at $0.09 / kWhr at night.
Because of the TOU pricing, tiered pricing, weekday vs weekend/holiday pricing, and seasonal pricing, the E6 plan is a pain to try and predict how it will affect your bill (should save money over E1 flat rate residential--especially if you can load shift your power to off peak use and turn the meter backwards during the peak times).
If you do it right--you may be paying $0.09 per kWhr for that EV... Much better than $0.33... Plus you have to pay about $5-$6 per month minimum connection charge (that is all I ever pay for the last 2.5 years) to use the utility as a 1 year capacity storage battery...
Going with an Off-Grid system to generate power is a real killer for cost--instead of ~~$0.25 / kWhr for Grid Tied Solar power cost, you are probably looking well north of $1.00 per kWhr for Off Grid power (cost of extra charge controller/off-grid inverter, batteries, battery replacement every 5-10 years, loss opportunity charging--3 day storage vs 1 year "storage" for Grid Tie).
Over on the west side of the bay--we have had a couple hand full of power outages over the last 5 decades that have lasted, at most, a few hours... I like the idea of an off grid capable system--but it was not worth the costs... I just purchased a Honda eu2000i generator, hooked up a manual transfer switch for a few circuits, and store some gas (1-2 gallons per day) for it (or siphon the car if I need more). The last long outage (5 days on the coast) was over fifty years ago.
There are hybrid Grid Tied / Off Grid systems now available--probably a bit more cost effective in the long term. The Xantrex XW system looks pretty nifty.
-Bill
Darell
Flashaholic
OK, not really an "Alt" vehicle, but at least topical from a previous sighting. Turns out that the Smart is a safer car than it looks.
Link to Smart safety rating
Link to Smart safety rating
HarryN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Hi BB, I am going to try to put some numbers together assuming
- a $ 2 K investment in solar panel
- my "real" useage - which frankly, is not easily time shifted from peak
- grid tied vs just using PV to power a few specific loads with enough battery for each day of operation.
I have heard numbers like 20 K plus for a PV system, and for me, that is just not an option. Being an old school project engineer, and the expected life of PV components, I do the math based on 5 year cost basis - and that is really generous. A real company will not survive doing doing an operational change with long pay backs unless it is VERY strategic.
What I am expecting, is that grid tied is good for PGE, but not for me. It seems like if I can get some relatively moderate but constant draws usually off of the grid (like a frig, some lights, furnace, A/C fan - not compressor), then I can potentially stay away from the 33 cent power and maybe some of the 22 cent power.
I don't trust PGE to be looking out for my best interest on a "timer" basis. The obvious one is their latest gig - trying to get us to go to a tiered system of time dependent use - with no real incentive. So far , lots of complaints that bills are going up. Gee - I wonder why PGE is so excited to push the program. :sick2:
Sorry if this more home ish useage is somewhat OT.
Just curious - has anyone had success with using abut 1 sq meter of PV to charge up a hybrid battery to reduce fuel use ? In other words, if I mounted a panel on a plug in hybrid, could I drive 3 - 10 miles day around town and notice a difference ?
- a $ 2 K investment in solar panel
- my "real" useage - which frankly, is not easily time shifted from peak
- grid tied vs just using PV to power a few specific loads with enough battery for each day of operation.
I have heard numbers like 20 K plus for a PV system, and for me, that is just not an option. Being an old school project engineer, and the expected life of PV components, I do the math based on 5 year cost basis - and that is really generous. A real company will not survive doing doing an operational change with long pay backs unless it is VERY strategic.
What I am expecting, is that grid tied is good for PGE, but not for me. It seems like if I can get some relatively moderate but constant draws usually off of the grid (like a frig, some lights, furnace, A/C fan - not compressor), then I can potentially stay away from the 33 cent power and maybe some of the 22 cent power.
I don't trust PGE to be looking out for my best interest on a "timer" basis. The obvious one is their latest gig - trying to get us to go to a tiered system of time dependent use - with no real incentive. So far , lots of complaints that bills are going up. Gee - I wonder why PGE is so excited to push the program. :sick2:
Sorry if this more home ish useage is somewhat OT.
Just curious - has anyone had success with using abut 1 sq meter of PV to charge up a hybrid battery to reduce fuel use ? In other words, if I mounted a panel on a plug in hybrid, could I drive 3 - 10 miles day around town and notice a difference ?
BB
Flashlight Enthusiast
Harry,
I have tried many times to cost out an off-grid solar system, and assuming 20 year life for everything...
Lets say you drive to Florida and get the cheapest (still very good quality with 25 year warranty) and get $2.50 per watt solar panels (cheap price this week...). 1kWatt worth of Sun-170 watt panels, Get 6 of them (1,020 watts). $467.50 * 6 = $2,805 for a set.
And you get a good quality charge controller (MX 60 by Outback) for $500.
Power wise, you really should use a pure sine wave inverter for your loads (stay away from the cheap Mod Sine/Square wave inverters). Exeltech XP1100 24-volt 1100 watt sine wave inverter for $612.
Lets guess that you will want ~1kW of solar panels--That will give you about 80-140 kWhrs per month of useful energy at SF, CA (using 52% as the derating factor for off-grid systems with 120 vac inverter. Or 2.67 to 4.67 kWhrs per day (winter-summer). The system will generate a total of 1,446 kWhrs for an average year...
Batteries, wet cell lead acid, 3 days of no sun, 50% max discharge level, 4.67kWhrs per day, 24 volt inverter.
Bat AH = 4,670 WH/24v * 3 days * 1/50% discharge = 1,168 AmpHrs of battery (24 volt pack).
Crown Industrial Battery 6-125-15 12 Volt, 1090 Amp-Hour is close enough. Very good quality battery, will last 20 years. $5,200 for a pair. 850 lbs each.
Add 20% for sales tax, shipping, wire, hardware (SWAG)...
So, for a 1kW simple off grid system, in San Francisco CA, with 3 days of off-grid battery and a 600 watt pure sine wave inverter and 20% adder for misc stuff = $10,904 in parts costs (no labor, permits, etc.).
Cost per kWhr = $10,904 / (1,446 kWhr/yr * 20 years) = $0.38 per kWhr
You should add some more costs, transfer switch, backup charger/generator. Also a battery monitor (look at the XBM model) to make sure you don't kill your $5,000 battery bank.
So, that $0.38 per kWhr is the cheapest I can see making this system... $2.50 is a great price (6 panel minimum order to ship). Normally they are closer to $3.75-$5.00 per watt. If you miss the good deal, add another $2k or so to the price (another 20%).
Also, with an off grid system, you cannot use 100% of your power every day--you only have three days of storage, and you cannot leave the battery flat ever (or even below 75% charge for more than a day or so) without risking dramatically shortening the life of the battery.
If you can only use 50% of the power every day (on average), your costs will double. If you need permits, labor, add a few more $k. Want a better inverter (one with automatic transfer switch to AC mains and mains capable battery charger, add another $1,200 (or another 10% cost increase to your power)...
Anyway, this is about the optimum priced off-grid capable system that I can think of at the moment. You can try making a 1/5 sized system ($2k instead of $10k), but you will also end up with, roughly 1/5 the usable power (and the smaller/fewer pieces may cost you more money anyway as the economy of scale drops). That will give you about 500 W*H to 900 W*H per day of energy...
A standard Energy Star 15-18 cuft fridge would be close to 1 kWhr per day.
A $2k system would not even be able to really power your single average fridge/freezer. You could try modifying an Energy Star rated chest freezer with a new thermostat that can keep the temp between 33 and 38F--it might work on that small of system...
I probably forgot something, or made a stupid mistake somewhere--but I think that this is as good an estimate as I can do tonight.
Regarding a single solar panel on a car--basically a 66"x33" 205 watt ($1,000) BP solar panel mounted flat (zero degrees) in San Francisco will generate about 8-30 kWhrs per month (deep winter-summer peak)--at 2-3 miles per kWhr for an electric car, that would range between 16-24 miles per month (deep winter) to 60-90 miles per month (peak summer months). Or a maximum of 2-3 miles per day in the summer... Ignoring any conversion losses from the low voltage solar panel to the high voltage Hybrid battery pack.
In the end, the current solar electric program, IMHO, is a pain in the butt for PG&E. They are buying and selling electricity at retail prices. Basically, not getting any money for moving the energy from my house to my neighbor's home... And they still need to supply all of us power when the sun sets or the clouds come in (in the summer, peak power usage in around 6-9 pm at night--not during the middle of the day).
And with TOU charges--I sell my power at $0.29 per kWhr (summer peak) and my neighbor is buying it at $0.12 (residential flat rate). And I get to "buy" my power back during the night and weekends at $0.09 per kWhr...
I would not want to go into that business without massive government/"other customer" subsidies (which is exactly what they are doing) and limiting it to a maximum of 1% of my customer base (which is also true). And if it gets too out of hand, reserve the right to change all the rules and create a new "real time pricing system" which I will force my solar PV customers on to (also true--in my PUC rate schedule)...
-Bill
I have tried many times to cost out an off-grid solar system, and assuming 20 year life for everything...
Lets say you drive to Florida and get the cheapest (still very good quality with 25 year warranty) and get $2.50 per watt solar panels (cheap price this week...). 1kWatt worth of Sun-170 watt panels, Get 6 of them (1,020 watts). $467.50 * 6 = $2,805 for a set.
And you get a good quality charge controller (MX 60 by Outback) for $500.
Power wise, you really should use a pure sine wave inverter for your loads (stay away from the cheap Mod Sine/Square wave inverters). Exeltech XP1100 24-volt 1100 watt sine wave inverter for $612.
Lets guess that you will want ~1kW of solar panels--That will give you about 80-140 kWhrs per month of useful energy at SF, CA (using 52% as the derating factor for off-grid systems with 120 vac inverter. Or 2.67 to 4.67 kWhrs per day (winter-summer). The system will generate a total of 1,446 kWhrs for an average year...
Batteries, wet cell lead acid, 3 days of no sun, 50% max discharge level, 4.67kWhrs per day, 24 volt inverter.
Bat AH = 4,670 WH/24v * 3 days * 1/50% discharge = 1,168 AmpHrs of battery (24 volt pack).
Crown Industrial Battery 6-125-15 12 Volt, 1090 Amp-Hour is close enough. Very good quality battery, will last 20 years. $5,200 for a pair. 850 lbs each.
Add 20% for sales tax, shipping, wire, hardware (SWAG)...
So, for a 1kW simple off grid system, in San Francisco CA, with 3 days of off-grid battery and a 600 watt pure sine wave inverter and 20% adder for misc stuff = $10,904 in parts costs (no labor, permits, etc.).
Cost per kWhr = $10,904 / (1,446 kWhr/yr * 20 years) = $0.38 per kWhr
You should add some more costs, transfer switch, backup charger/generator. Also a battery monitor (look at the XBM model) to make sure you don't kill your $5,000 battery bank.
So, that $0.38 per kWhr is the cheapest I can see making this system... $2.50 is a great price (6 panel minimum order to ship). Normally they are closer to $3.75-$5.00 per watt. If you miss the good deal, add another $2k or so to the price (another 20%).
Also, with an off grid system, you cannot use 100% of your power every day--you only have three days of storage, and you cannot leave the battery flat ever (or even below 75% charge for more than a day or so) without risking dramatically shortening the life of the battery.
If you can only use 50% of the power every day (on average), your costs will double. If you need permits, labor, add a few more $k. Want a better inverter (one with automatic transfer switch to AC mains and mains capable battery charger, add another $1,200 (or another 10% cost increase to your power)...
Anyway, this is about the optimum priced off-grid capable system that I can think of at the moment. You can try making a 1/5 sized system ($2k instead of $10k), but you will also end up with, roughly 1/5 the usable power (and the smaller/fewer pieces may cost you more money anyway as the economy of scale drops). That will give you about 500 W*H to 900 W*H per day of energy...
A standard Energy Star 15-18 cuft fridge would be close to 1 kWhr per day.
A $2k system would not even be able to really power your single average fridge/freezer. You could try modifying an Energy Star rated chest freezer with a new thermostat that can keep the temp between 33 and 38F--it might work on that small of system...
I probably forgot something, or made a stupid mistake somewhere--but I think that this is as good an estimate as I can do tonight.
Regarding a single solar panel on a car--basically a 66"x33" 205 watt ($1,000) BP solar panel mounted flat (zero degrees) in San Francisco will generate about 8-30 kWhrs per month (deep winter-summer peak)--at 2-3 miles per kWhr for an electric car, that would range between 16-24 miles per month (deep winter) to 60-90 miles per month (peak summer months). Or a maximum of 2-3 miles per day in the summer... Ignoring any conversion losses from the low voltage solar panel to the high voltage Hybrid battery pack.
In the end, the current solar electric program, IMHO, is a pain in the butt for PG&E. They are buying and selling electricity at retail prices. Basically, not getting any money for moving the energy from my house to my neighbor's home... And they still need to supply all of us power when the sun sets or the clouds come in (in the summer, peak power usage in around 6-9 pm at night--not during the middle of the day).
And with TOU charges--I sell my power at $0.29 per kWhr (summer peak) and my neighbor is buying it at $0.12 (residential flat rate). And I get to "buy" my power back during the night and weekends at $0.09 per kWhr...
I would not want to go into that business without massive government/"other customer" subsidies (which is exactly what they are doing) and limiting it to a maximum of 1% of my customer base (which is also true). And if it gets too out of hand, reserve the right to change all the rules and create a new "real time pricing system" which I will force my solar PV customers on to (also true--in my PUC rate schedule)...
-Bill
