Feedback/impressions on the PhD-M6 custom battery pack

[wquiles]

so when I look for one, I just need to specify "PhD M6 Black Edition Standard Values," right?

The standard values were:
Level 1 = 5.0 volts
Level 2 = 6.8 volts
Level 3 = 7.5 volts
Level 4 = 10.8 volts

The MN61 (my favorite on the PhD-M6) at anywhere between 9.0 - 9.2 volts would be awesome.

So if you are looking for an used pack, you need to find out what 4x voltages that used pack was programmed to (the original owner will know), and based on those 4x voltage settings, the bulb chart http://m3coupe.com/electronics/PhD/part2/PhDM6_Bulb_Chart_8_21_10.png, will guide you as to what bulbs work best at each of those 4x voltages.

I would say that most of the packs had some custom values (meaning not the standard 4x), but it you can find out what Cx values were used, the Sales thread should give you enough indication of how that particular pack was programmed.

As always, if in doubt, come back with questions 🙂

Will

 

[tobrien]

The standard values were:
Level 1 = 5.0 volts
Level 2 = 6.8 volts
Level 3 = 7.5 volts
Level 4 = 10.8 volts

The MN61 (my favorite on the PhD-M6) at anywhere between 9.0 - 9.2 volts would be awesome.

So if you are looking for an used pack, you need to find out what 4x voltages that used pack was programmed to (the original owner will know), and based on those 4x voltage settings, the bulb chart http://m3coupe.com/electronics/PhD/part2/PhDM6_Bulb_Chart_8_21_10.png, will guide you as to what bulbs work best at each of those 4x voltages.

I would say that most of the packs had some custom values (meaning not the standard 4x), but it you can find out what Cx values were used, the Sales thread should give you enough indication of how that particular pack was programmed.

As always, if in doubt, come back with questions 🙂

Will

I'm so sorry I didn't reply, I was under the assumption I already took care of that.

Anyways, you've been an awesome help and this piece of work you produced certainly commands an aftermarket price that really does show its value to the community.

long story short, I consider myself a lucky man. No, my girlfriend still won't let me kiss her, but that's not what I'm implying has changed.

Thanks to an awesome member here, I will be buying a PhD-M6 with the following values:
Level 1 = 6.8 V
Level 2 = 7.5 V
Level 3 = 9.2 V
Level 4 = 10.8 V

I cannot tell you how excited I am about it. Really, I'd probably get banned haha

I think this is quite the score!

 

[wquiles]

Excellent - I am glad you found one with values you can use 🙂

 

[tobrien]

Excellent - I am glad you found one with values you can use 🙂

thanks man! 🙂

 

[tobrien]

Will: thanks to an amazing CPFer abroad, I got my battery pack today and my initial impressions are that this is one finely crafted product. I have classes today but will definitely be using this on my MN21 bulb that's already sitting in my M6.

I'm really quite impressed with its build quality and how it's still light weight. I think it's very apparent a good amount of engineering and thoughtfulness went into this PhD-M6.

I really cannot wait to try this out. So this PhD-M6 pack will give me more steady output than running an MN21 on primaries right? I'm assuming the AW protected 17670s hold their voltage better (or does that matter with this pack?).

 

[cland72]

Will: thanks to an amazing CPFer abroad, I got my battery pack today and my initial impressions are that this is one finely crafted product. I have classes today but will definitely be using this on my MN21 bulb that's already sitting in my M6.

I'm really quite impressed with its build quality and how it's still light weight. I think it's very apparent a good amount of engineering and thoughtfulness went into this PhD-M6.

I really cannot wait to try this out. So this PhD-M6 pack will give me more steady output than running an MN21 on primaries right? I'm assuming the AW protected 17670s hold their voltage better (or does that matter with this pack?).

I've heard the MN21 will drain the batteries pretty hard in the PHDM6. You may want to run a MN61, or MN20. But then again, if you don't care about your battery's lifespan, then go nuts :thumbsup:

 

[wquiles]

Will: thanks to an amazing CPFer abroad, I got my battery pack today and my initial impressions are that this is one finely crafted product. I have classes today but will definitely be using this on my MN21 bulb that's already sitting in my M6.

I'm really quite impressed with its build quality and how it's still light weight. I think it's very apparent a good amount of engineering and thoughtfulness went into this PhD-M6.

Thank you for your kind words 😱

So this PhD-M6 pack will give me more steady output than running an MN21 on primaries right? I'm assuming the AW protected 17670s hold their voltage better (or does that matter with this pack?).

Of the commonly used bulbs in the PhD-M6, as posted above, the MN21 is the most demanding, and the ones that causes the AW's cells to age the fastest. In fact, besides the slow start, to use the MN21 bulb I had to add a special software algorithm to trick the AW cells' protection circuitry from firing too soon. But with time, and prolonged use of the MN21 bulb, this protection circuitry in the AW cells ages, and they will not power the MN21 anymore. It will appear to you as if the pack does not work any more - but it is not the pack, it is the cells that are worn out prematurely. If you put in new AW cells, everything will be working back to normal, until the new cells are worn out. The IMR cells don't have the short circuit protection, so they handle the high current draw from the MN21 just fine - BUT - the IMR cells also have less capacity, so there is a compromise.

My bottom line is that we don't recommend using the MN21 too often, unless you are able to keep buying AW cells often. I recommend the MN61 instead, which will even work great with AW cells that are already too worn out to work with the MN21.

 

[tobrien]

Thank you for your kind words 😱

any time man. all of your project/build logs strewn around the servers of CPF really show you know your stuff. 🙂

I've heard the MN21 will drain the batteries pretty hard in the PHDM6. You may want to run a MN61, or MN20. But then again, if you don't care about your battery's lifespan, then go nuts :thumbsup:

My bottom line is that we don't recommend using the MN21 too often, unless you are able to keep buying AW cells often. I recommend the MN61 instead, which will even work great with AW cells that are already too worn out to work with the MN21.

I'm not too concerned about their lifespan, but I say that because I won't be using this even 30 mins a week on average, I suppose. But then again, how short is short so far as lifespan?

Of the commonly used bulbs in the PhD-M6, as posted above, the MN21 is the most demanding, and the ones that causes the AW's cells to age the fastest. In fact, besides the slow start, to use the MN21 bulb I had to add a special software algorithm to trick the AW cells' protection circuitry from firing too soon. But with time, and prolonged use of the MN21 bulb, this protection circuitry in the AW cells ages, and they will not power the MN21 anymore. It will appear to you as if the pack does not work any more - but it is not the pack, it is the cells that are worn out prematurely. If you put in new AW cells, everything will be working back to normal, until the new cells are worn out. The IMR cells don't have the short circuit protection, so they handle the high current draw from the MN21 just fine - BUT - the IMR cells also have less capacity, so there is a compromise.

Dang, you really do know how to design things (re: special software algorithm). That's incredible and makes me hold this pack in that much higher regard! 🙂

But the thing is, with the MN61, I'm going to have noticeably less output, right? Probably 200 lumens or so less.

I guess what I need to know now is exactly how much shorter the 17670s life will be.

(I apologize if this is potentially de-railing your thread, please let me know if you're not okay with this)

 

[wquiles]

I'm not too concerned about their lifespan, but I say that because I won't be using this even 30 mins a week on average, I suppose. But then again, how short is short so far as lifespan?

The observations regarding the MN21 wearing out the AW cells come from me and many of the owners of these packs over the last couple of years. Unfortunately since the 3x cells are in series, it only takes "one" of the cells to trigger their protection circuitry to bring the whole thing down. So I can't give you a range since there are too many variables. You will find out once you press the button or twist the tailcap and the M6 will not work. That is when you need to swap and put new batteries.

I "can" tell you for sure:
- That the MN21 "will" kill the cells (meaning they will not work more with the MN21), but they will keep working with the MN20 (and other, lower current bulbs).
- I probably use the MN21's more than anyone else since I tested each and every pack with MN21's - that was part of my burn-in test and quality control. I don't keep track of how long batteries lasted, but every couple of months (maybe 3-4?) I had to buy new batteries.
- Even if you don't use the M6, you should top-off, recharge the cells anyway. There is a little bit of parasitic draw by the microcontroller even while in sleep mode. I try to top my packs about once a month.
- Yes, the MN61 will give you less lumens than the MN21. There is always a trade-off 🙂

Will

 

[python]

Hi,

Has anyone used the Redilast 17670?

Wladimir

 

[tobrien]

The observations regarding the MN21 wearing out the AW cells come from me and many of the owners of these packs over the last couple of years. Unfortunately since the 3x cells are in series, it only takes "one" of the cells to trigger their protection circuitry to bring the whole thing down. So I can't give you a range since there are too many variables. You will find out once you press the button or twist the tailcap and the M6 will not work. That is when you need to swap and put new batteries.

I "can" tell you for sure:
- That the MN21 "will" kill the cells (meaning they will not work more with the MN21), but they will keep working with the MN20 (and other, lower current bulbs).
- I probably use the MN21's more than anyone else since I tested each and every pack with MN21's - that was part of my burn-in test and quality control. I don't keep track of how long batteries lasted, but every couple of months (maybe 3-4?) I had to buy new batteries.
- Even if you don't use the M6, you should top-off, recharge the cells anyway. There is a little bit of parasitic draw by the microcontroller even while in sleep mode. I try to top my packs about once a month.
- Yes, the MN61 will give you less lumens than the MN21. There is always a trade-off 🙂

Will

Hey Will,

I apologize for the incredibly late response, but here goes:

Thank you very much for your response. I've been deciding (and am firm on my decision haha) that I'll bite the bullet and keep a good stock of 17670s on hand as needed. The MN21 is amazing in this.

I really am quite proud (unhealthily so?) of owning this PhD-M6 pack. It really makes my M6 all it is capable of. Thank you.

Quick question: I just noticed how on the site you have, "- soft start (extends bulb's life by limiting the inrush current when the filament is cold)" listed. If you don't mind my asking, how does it work? Perhaps by remembering how long it's been since the pack was last used and basing that time on whether the bulb is likely to be cold/hot?

Thanks again man!

Hi,

Has anyone used the Redilast 17670?

Wladimir

I have not yet but do plan on it 😉

 

[wquiles]

Quick question: I just noticed how on the site you have, "- soft start (extends bulb's life by limiting the inrush current when the filament is cold)" listed. If you don't mind my asking, how does it work? Perhaps by remembering how long it's been since the pack was last used and basing that time on whether the bulb is likely to be cold/hot?

Incandescent bulbs rely on a thin metal filament to create visible light. This filament has a resistance that is very low when the filament is "off", but that resistance increases as the filament heats up and then stabilitizes once the bulb reaches the operating status. This initial lower resistance causes a significant current spike from the power source (batteries in our case), and it weakens the filament/bulb, specially when operated at higher voltage levels (this is why incancescent bulbs "always" blow up when you first turn them off - not while they are running). So, in order to extend the life of the bulb, the PhD-M6 packs implements a software routine in which the initial voltage is set to a point lower than the "target" regulated voltage (thus limiting the inrrush current). Then the software increases the regulated voltage slowly, in small steps, until it reaches the "target" regulated voltage. I saw slowly, but that is of course relative. I think the delayed start was around 350-450mS or so (it has been a while, so I don't remember that Eric and I decided to use).

Once the soft start routine finishes, then the voltage regulation and battery monitoring take over for the remainder of the time the light remains in the ON state. Turning the light OFF resets everything, so next time the light goes ON, the whole process repeats ifself over and over ........

 

[JimmyM]

tobrien, you've bought a great pack. These things make the M6 into a MUCH more flexible tool. The best part of the PhD series of regulators is that they're programmable. Will has gone the extra step of letting you "program" (via the switches) your own voltages. But even those can be changed via reprogramming with software. I credit the overall PhD project (Will, Alan, & myself) with my current microcontroller hobby.
Now there are 32-bit ARM core processors running at 30MHz that are as small as the chips we used for these just a few years ago.

 

[wquiles]

tobrien, you've bought a great pack. These things make the M6 into a MUCH more flexible tool. The best part of the PhD series of regulators is that they're programmable. Will has gone the extra step of letting you "program" (via the switches) your own voltages. But even those can be changed via reprogramming with software. I credit the overall PhD project (Will, Alan, & myself) with my current microcontroller hobby.
Now there are 32-bit ARM core processors running at 30MHz that are as small as the chips we used for these just a few years ago.

And I credit you and Alan for how much I learned during the PhD-M6 project. Like you, I now have done other micro-controller projects, and your collective advice was key in getting me started. I even worked on Tiny-85 controlled, blinking LED light module for my son's Cub Scout Pine Wood Derby Car 😉

 

[ma tumba]

OK, my phd pack got broken. When I switched on my M6 with a wa1111 installed (PHD-M6 set at 6.8V), the bulb instaflashed and since that I measure 12.3V on the pack regardless of the switches' positions, which means that there is no regulation anymore. Is that repairable? I did use a new kind of 17650 batts (efest imr) but this was the second or third use of these batts, not the first one

 

[JimmyM]

OK, my phd pack got broken. When I switched on my M6 with a wa1111 installed (PHD-M6 set at 6.8V), the bulb instaflashed and since that I measure 12.3V on the pack regardless of the switches' positions, which means that there is no regulation anymore. Is that repairable? I did use a new kind of 17650 batts (efest imr) but this was the second or third use of these batts, not the first one

The way these packs work, there always has to be some load in the place of the bulb or the voltage will always read the pack voltage. Try putting a 1K resistor in place of the bulb and measuring again.

 

[wquiles]

Measuring the voltage across the pack does not work as that is a high impedance path - the pack only operates when it senses the resistance of the bulb, and the voltmeter can't simulate that. That being said, a voltage of around 12Volts would indicate that the 3x cells are charged and that the cell's protection circuitry has not "triggered".

What brand/type of cells are you using? Has this bulb worked before in this pack/setup/voltage setting?

 

[ma tumba]

James, Will, thanks for your prompt replies.

1. I bought a set of 3 Efest IMR 1200mAh cells and have used it a few times when the AW protected cells were being charged, so this was not the first use of those batts. After this "accident" I installed the AW protected batts and instaflashed another wa1111. It was after that when I measured the voltage across the pack and found it to be equal to 12.3V.

2. I dont have any resistors here, but I'll get one tomorrow and check. I am not sure I'd have a good selection though, so what range of resistance is acceptable for the check?

Thanks

 

[JimmyM]

James, Will, thanks for your prompt replies.

1. I bought a set of 3 Efest IMR 1200mAh cells and have used it a few times when the AW protected cells were being charged, so this was not the first use of those batts. After this "accident" I installed the AW protected batts and instaflashed another wa1111. It was after that when I measured the voltage across the pack and found it to be equal to 12.3V.

2. I dont have any resistors here, but I'll get one tomorrow and check. I am not sure I'd have a good selection though, so what range of resistance is acceptable for the check?

Thanks

Will, do you think a range of 100 ohm (Will get HOT fast) to 2000 Ohm would be enough to allow "bulb detection"?

 

[wquiles]

James, Will, thanks for your prompt replies.

1. I bought a set of 3 Efest IMR 1200mAh cells and have used it a few times when the AW protected cells were being charged, so this was not the first use of those batts. After this "accident" I installed the AW protected batts and instaflashed another wa1111. It was after that when I measured the voltage across the pack and found it to be equal to 12.3V.

2. I dont have any resistors here, but I'll get one tomorrow and check. I am not sure I'd have a good selection though, so what range of resistance is acceptable for the check?

Thanks

Please don't try any more bulbs. Send me the pack, and I will see what I can find. Send me an email at: wquiles (at) gmail [dot] {com}