First time posting in Years and so disappointed to see manufacturers/influencers claim Turbo as the ratings

LEDBE
bigchelis

bigchelis

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Messages
3,636
Location
Prunedale, CA
Hi all,
We have new emitters and updated cells and overall happy about that. But the false advertising that is now commonplace is a bit too much. I Purchased a Nitecore P10ix 4000 lumens recently and the Turbo 4K lumens last 10 seconds sometimes less. The actual running lumens seem to be the high mode or about 850 lumens and even than it gets hot.

So, what is the true lumens that should be pitched?

My thinking is it should be sold as 800 lumen light with a 10 second burst TURBO of 4K. That is it.
amazing tester here: https://1lumen.com/review/nitecore-p10ix/#performance

Runtime graphs & experience confirm this is only a 500 to 800 lumen light. Nitecore is not alone. All the brands big or small do this. Only now youtube reviews and other re-iterate this to the masses and nobody around to correct them.

10yrs ago, it seems all the lying/misleading was rating the flashlights based on potential output LED in a lab with controlled current and temperature.

Today, LED lab potential + Turbo modes mode is now how they rate lights. Like just adding another variable to the hype.






bigC
 
Whoa!! bigchelis! That name sure invokes some memories around CPF. Good to see your post here again!

I guess technically, they're not wrong. The light is capable of producing that level of output, but yeah, that's only for 10 seconds or even less. It's what sold lights in the past and will continue to sell lights in the future. But I agree that they should advertise it so that it's known the turbo level is just that, turbo. As in overdriven and meant for short burst.
 
Agreed. A unit's normal and customary "top" ability should be what its rating is based on, not its momentary "turbo" level.

Say, with a Malkoff M61 drop-in. If it's got 400lm as its output, that's its level for rating performance.

With a Malkoff M361 low-med-hi drop-in, it's got 450lm-90lm-20lm, but that 450lm output is good for a good long while ... not momentary.

Same should be with the OP's example of an 800lm light that happens to have a several-second burst/turbo mode of whatever output. If I were making and selling such a device, I'd list it as an 800lm light with a momentary burst/turbo mode, same as I would mention its "moonlight" mode of single-digit lumens output.

Of course, there have been snake oil salesmen since snake oil became a thing. So I don't imagine they'll start listening to us now. Caveat emptor, basically. Know what you're gettin'.
 
When Gene put out the Body Guard light he made it perfectly clear that it starts a lot brighter than it runs. Not some turbo mode to sell it but a genuine burst of blinding light to buy a few seconds while said body guard springs into action to protect the client.

As much as I respect Elzetta and their products I was disappointed to see them offer the new Alpha as an 800 lumen light when it's really a 500+ lumen light with an opening burst like Gene's body guard light.

Used to be around here folks would say "yeah that WhichFire 222 does a great 200 lumen output but how long does their 350 lumen turbo last?" Now its "how long does the high last?"

Sign o the times I suppose.
 
I don't mean to point out the obvious, but if a cell could hold its output...

Let's say you build a 18650 cell out of two high drain 18350 cells, and put a circuit on it so its voltage stays at some high voltage, say 4.2V while the capacity lasts (not unlike the way 3V Keeppowers or 1.5V Li-ion cells work), then the turbo mode on a light from any of the decent manufacturers, say, Zebralight, which also seems guilty of the accusation here, wouldn't the turbo mode hold its brightness?

I get where OP is coming from, and I too would like to see a model released that accurately claims to have an 800Lm turbo and holds exactly that 800Lm for five minutes at least, even though it could put out a max of 2000Lm for a second and quickly drop to 800Lm over five minutes, sacrifice that worthless rapidly diminishing output, because those are the cells we have.
 
I was having some work done on my car yesterday. Inside the store was a nice selection of flashlights. Of course I was checking them out. There was another customer also looking at them. He remarked that he was going to get one of the lights for his wife's car. He picked one up that had 10,000 lumen rating on the package. He commented on how bright that would be. He then saw that the run time was several hours. I showed him that the long run time did not relate to the 10,000 lumen output, but that it would only shine that bring for a very short time. He even commented that it was deceptive advertising.
 
Truth in advertising went away a long time ago along with truth in general. I try to explain to whoever asks what to expect from a flashlight they are looking to buy. What bothers me is that often they think that I am the one who is dishonest. All you can do is try.
 
It's left a bad taste in my mouth too. I just haven't been interested in all the new stuff that's hyped at whatever-thousand lumens because they don't say how long that lasts, or at what lower output and duration will it run steady state. Blatent misrepresentation of a product.

There are a few brands that have some of that info but you have to dig for it. The big splash headline still reads "XXXX Lumens!!! XX Hours runtime!!" implying that you get that output for that runtime, which is massively wrong.

gag
 
I wish lights were regulated and constantly put out the full advertised brightness. It is really a marketing problem. Seemingly better stats sell products. Just look at the LED Lensers from long ago. The package was all about crazy claims of performance.
 
I long ago reached the point where I largely ignore top-level claims and evaluate a light based on the basis of a credible spec sheet as well as past experience. I no more expect a 3xAAA zoomie on the 'zon or the 'bay to hit 100k lumens than I do a reasonably well-executed 1x18650 to be able to sustain 1000 lumens for 60 minutes without reducing itself to slag.
 
With Youtube reviews by people who do not understand the tech they just re-iterate the hype/snake oil this furthers the marketing scheme and to a greater audience.


That is the beauty of Malkoff products. Gene was always honest and continues to be and hopefully he is still doing good despite being honest.

Glad to be back and fun reads again.

best,
bigC
 
A few years ago I was asked to do flashlight reviews. Not the comprehensive kind like Subwoofer does, but those sunshine and lollipop kind with links to Amazon. I declined. The response was "we'll pay you". I politlely declined again. I just didn't want to 'push' products onto the non informed buyers.

I figured if I told the truth in the reviews they would end up on page 479 of google searches. 900 lumens for 3 hours from a double a battery? Yeah, right.
 
bykfixer said:
A few years ago I was asked to do flashlight reviews. Not the comprehensive kind like Subwoofer does, but those sunshine and lollipop kind with links to Amazon. I declined. The response was "we'll pay you". I politlely declined again. I just didn't want to 'push' products onto the non informed buyers.

I figured if I told the truth in the reviews they would end up on page 479 of google searches. 900 lumens for 3 hours from a double a battery? Yeah, right.
Click to expand...
900 for 3 hours? I see no issues with that, but my AA batteries might be different from yours.

 
bykfixer said:
A few years ago I was asked to do flashlight reviews. Not the comprehensive kind like Subwoofer does, but those sunshine and lollipop kind with links to Amazon. I declined. The response was "we'll pay you". I politlely declined again. I just didn't want to 'push' products onto the non informed buyers.

I figured if I told the truth in the reviews they would end up on page 479 of google searches. 900 lumens for 3 hours from a double a battery? Yeah, right.
Click to expand...
Seems like that is the best practice. Have a potentially bad product; pay the reviews and hope they do not have a bias review ;)

Thanks for keeping it real!
 
bigchelis said:
Hi all,
We have new emitters and updated cells and overall happy about that. But the false advertising that is now commonplace is a bit too much. I Purchased a Nitecore P10ix 4000 lumens recently and the Turbo 4K lumens last 10 seconds sometimes less. The actual running lumens seem to be the high mode or about 850 lumens and even than it gets hot.

So, what is the true lumens that should be pitched?

My thinking is it should be sold as 800 lumen light with a 10 second burst TURBO of 4K. That is it.
amazing tester here: https://1lumen.com/review/nitecore-p10ix/#performance

Runtime graphs & experience confirm this is only a 500 to 800 lumen light. Nitecore is not alone. All the brands big or small do this. Only now youtube reviews and other re-iterate this to the masses and nobody around to correct them.

10yrs ago, it seems all the lying/misleading was rating the flashlights based on potential output LED in a lab with controlled current and temperature.

Today, LED lab potential + Turbo modes mode is now how they rate lights. Like just adding another variable to the hype.






bigC
Click to expand...
Dont chase Turbo lumen yeilds , Chase high and medium modes with most lummens and run times!!
 
Flashlightmaster2021 said:
Dont chase Turbo lumen yeilds , Chase high and medium modes with most lummens and run times!!
Click to expand...

Agreed. Putting an old beat up bone stock Surefire 6P into rotation and going for single mode 500~1000 lumen drop-in. With a single 16650 / 8Amp draw rated I should be able to get a solid 20~30min runtime without dipping too much.
 
+

Most high performance things state their highest ratings.
Take a new American muscle car, it'll state & advertise 600hp / 0~60 of like 4.5sec. and can go 160 mph
These are the max it can do all full RPMs' and is not how you drive normally.

1lumen was listed, look at the runtimes for flat regulation on High,,
you'll find lights that'll do 1800lm for 2hrs on a 26650 or 21700. That's important.

Really don't have an issue listing what an emitter can do,, back to the car analogy.
 
LRJ88 said:
900 for 3 hours? I see no issues with that, but my AA batteries might be different from yours.

Click to expand...
I get a white screen, for whatever that is. But let's say that you have 2.5Wh (around what you get from good Eneloops). Unless my math is way off, three hours at 900 lumens, assuming about 75% OTF, and zero switching losses, would require a 1400+lm/W LED. High capacity NIMH would be more like 1100-1200lm/W, and Lithium about 900lm/W.

White LEDs as we know them (blue+phosphors) can't get close to those numbers, even if absolutely perfected.
 
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