Flashing brake lights.

Alaric Darconville

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(purely anecdotally) I have heen seeing more and more dimly lit and automatically triple-flashing brakelights on the road. I'm assuming there are bulbs that have this "feature" built in. I could see the utility of if were it the centerlamp and only indicating a hard deceleration, but when its every single time a brake pedal is applied, it becomes annoying and borderline confusing.
These aren't bulbs, they are specific modules installed by dealers (retaining the original lamp assembly and its bulb(s) or LED(s) ) and touted as a safety feature and as legal (both being lies). They do their nonsense every time the service brake is actuated, without any deceleration logic. Pure annoying junk and I wish they'd fall off the face of the earth.
 

John_Galt

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As I stated in my last response, I don't necessarily think they are all module driven. I've seen an increase in older vehicles with poorly illuminated taillights doing some combination of flashing before going solid. Very confusing with a vehicle that does not have separate brake and turn signals.
 

Dave D

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Not California legal because they are not Federally legal. The CHMSL must be steady burning on application of the service brake. Not pulsing. Not flashing. Not strobing. Steady burning.
The California legal bit is a quote from Denali, the US manufacturer, fortunately I am in Europe where Dynamic Brake Lights are standard fit on many vehicles and have been standard on BMW motorcycles since the 2016 model year, which started 1st September 2015.

Safety technologies are developed much faster than the pencil pushers change their regulations to allow them to be used, but 6 years for a safety feature to still not to be allowed in the USA seems shameful.
 
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-Virgil-

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Yes, a long list of the backward US safety regulations are shameful. Also yes, there are shamefully backward lighting regulations in Europe/rest-of-world, too. It sucks, but it is what it is, and it's not likely to change very much or very soon.

The trap here is assuming that any/all flashing brake lights are necessarily a safety improvement. The U.N. (Europe + rest-of-world) Emergency Stop Signal is a safety improvement as specified, but just flashing the brake lights every time they go on, or flashing the CHMSL every time it goes on, or any of the rest of the random setups, really aren't. Furthermore, the American situation is not the same as the rest-of-world situation: there are red rear turn signals and hazard lights, so in that context flashing brake lights (even ESS-type setups) would be adding yet another dimension for drivers to have to figure out on the fly: is that supposed to be a dim red light or a bright red light? I guess it's bright...oh, look there, yeah, it must be bright because the CHMSL is lit, too. Is it a flashing red light or a steady-lit red light? Oh, it's flashing. Is it a red light on both sides of the car, or just one? I can't tell...well, is it a fast-flashing red light or a slow-flashing red light? It looks fast, now am I seeing a fast-flashing turn signal because there's a fault in the system, or is that urgent braking? Or wait, is the driver pumping the brakes or riding the brake pedal? Meanwhile the crash happened before most of these questions could be asked, let alone answered.
 

Dave D

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Meanwhile the crash happened before most of these questions could be asked, let alone answered.
Fortunately in Euro land, our brakes lights are red and indicators are amber which gives the person viewing less to have to process. Plus the dynamic brakes lights are only activated from speeds above 51kmph under heavy braking so are rarely seen and therefore the motoring public don't become complacent to them.

Maybe if the pencil pushers came out for ride-a-longs and had the opportunity to scrape casualties off of the roads then perhaps they'd speed up the process of introducing safety features.
 

Alaric Darconville

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Maybe if the pencil pushers came out for ride-a-longs and had the opportunity to scrape casualties off of the roads then perhaps they'd speed up the process of introducing safety features.
Right now, I'd settle for ensuring they stop the introduction by unqualified and unauthorized parties of pretend safety features, such as those aftermarket flashing CHMSLs as you might witness in the USA. Otherwise, we get these sort of dangerous toys snuck in and then legalized due to overwhelming presence.
 

Dave D

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Right now, I'd settle for ensuring they stop the introduction by unqualified and unauthorized parties of pretend safety features, such as those aftermarket flashing CHMSLs as you might witness in the USA. Otherwise, we get these sort of dangerous toys snuck in and then legalized due to overwhelming presence.
If they can write legislation to prevent aftermarket then I'd prefer them to firstly write the legislation to legalise OEM systems at least that would help to save lives or reduce injuries.

We all have different experiences that form our differing views, I spent half of my 30 year career as an LEO on Highway Patrol (not called that over this side of the pond), so I'd rather protect the innocent first and then catch the bad guys.
 

Alaric Darconville

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If they can write legislation to prevent aftermarket then I'd prefer them to firstly write the legislation to legalise OEM systems at least that would help to save lives or reduce injuries.
The issue is not that the equipment is aftermarket, the issue is that the equipment renders required motor vehicle equipment inoperative. And for that, there IS existing law regarding manufacturing, importing, and/or introducing such things into interstate commerce. There is also law that prohibits installation of such products by regulated parties, including vehicle manufacturers, dealerships, and mechanics-for-hire/car repair shops. The law exists, but isn't enforced well.

OEM systems that comply with the law are already legal, strangely enough. ;)

Automakers can't just make up lighting as they go along (although Toyota does it with late-model RAV4 stop lamps which don't comply with the EPLLA requirement for stop lamps, and so far nobody has done anything about it).
 
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och

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There was a time where tail lights in the US were improving, but with all the LED craze now we are going backwards. Automakers in the US prefer form over function unfortunately, and now there are plenty of modern cars with all red tail lights, where turn signals and brake lights share the same LEDs.
 

bykfixer

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There was a time where tail lights in the US were improving, but with all the LED craze now we are going backwards. Automakers in the US prefer form over function unfortunately, and now there are plenty of modern cars with all red tail lights, where turn signals and brake lights share the same LEDs.
Yep, those automobiles with those eye catching cool-io look at me turn signals that mimic the 67 Mercury Cougar, while doing their little dance can distract the person behind them in such a way they fail to notice that solid third brake light lit up, which means "oh look at that cute turn signal, oh crap that guy is stopping!" :eek:
Maybe if the dancing turn signals were amber that would not be the case. But I'd bet a Pepsi way more rear ender crashes are caused by following too close than by the brake lights not being properly atuned.
 

kerneldrop

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My GMC's trailer light system can't detect most LED trailers because the current isn't high enough for detection...so I have to connect it to a special plug that boosts the signal so the truck's computer can detect a trailer and turn on the trailering system lights.
How silly is that.
 

Alaric Darconville

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Yep, those automobiles with those eye catching cool-io look at me turn signals that mimic the 67 Mercury Cougar, while doing their little dance can distract the person behind them in such a way they fail to notice that solid third brake light lit up, which means "oh look at that cute turn signal, oh crap that guy is stopping!" :eek:
Maybe if the dancing turn signals were amber that would not be the case.
There are studies that show separate amber rear turn signals are more effective than the CHMSL at preventing certain rear-end collisions, so, yes, if those "dancing turn signals were amber" it would be safer.

It's hard to stop people from following too closely (we can't follow them around all day long) but we CAN improve our lighting by requiring separate amber rear turn signals (but I'm NOT advocating for eliminating the CHMSL).
 

RHS-113

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Automakers can't just make up lighting as they go along (although Toyota does it with late-model RAV4 stop lamps which don't comply with the EPLLA requirement for stop lamps, and so far nobody has done anything about it).
I think the tiny brake light and turn signal situation is worse in countries that require or permit ECE regulations. The RoW market Corvette C8, Tesla Model 3, Land Rover Discovery, and even the Japan market Toyota Alphard are all examples of cars with minuscule brake lights and/or turn signals. But here in North America there are cars like the Lexus NX and some Mazda SUVs that pretend to comply with the EPLLA requirements by using the taillights to supplement the tiny brake lights.
 
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-Virgil-

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I think the tiny brake light and turn signal situation is worse in countries that require or permit ECE regulations.

You're right. The rest-of-the-world UN regulations allow vehicle signal lights to be way too small and way too dim.

The RoW market Corvette C8, Tesla Model 3, Land Rover Discovery, and even the Japan market Toyota Alphard are all examples of cars with miniscule brake lights and/or turn signals.

The US Tesla Model 3 has minuscule brake/turn signal lights, and the rest-of-the-world Model 3's are even worse.

But here in North America there are cars like the Lexus NX and some Mazda SUVs that pretend to comply with the EPLLA requirements by using the taillights to supplement the tiny brake lights.

...and cars like the current-model Toyota RAV4 that don't even bother to pretend: tiny little toenail-size brake light, without even bothering to use the tail light to pretend to increase the lit area. They got away with the tail light pretense; NHTSA didn't say or do anything about it, so I guess they figured, "why not?" So far that seems to have been a good question.
 

och

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There was...? When was that, and how were they improving?
Ok, so there was a time in the US where many cars had only two red tail lights, where a single bulb performed three functions. In the 90ies plenty of cars came with multiple brake bulbs for redundancy, plus dedicated amber turn signals.

Now with the LED craze its all about form before function.
 

Repsol600rr

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Those flashing brake lights really aggravate me. Scenario. I'm in traffic and a car has those. Guess what. People's eyes are drawn to flashes or movement. It's a reflex. You have to actively tune it out. So I'm sitting there and the car 3 up and a lane over has them. Every time he hits his brakes my eye is instinctively drawn to his brake lights. This does me no good considering he's not even in my lane and his stopping may well have no bearing on what the car in front of me is doing. So now I have to actively focus on ignoring that in addition to what I'm doing. This is annoying in slow moving and stop start traffic. In higher speed higher brake force situations it makes sense. But not every time the brakes are touched.
 

-Virgil-

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Ok, so there was a time in the US where many cars had only two red tail lights

This is still the case, and kind of never wasn't. Most manufacturers, no matter where they or their cars are on the food chain, treat the rear turn signals primarily as a combination cost-cutting target and styling gimmick for model year or trim level differentiation. Even many high-end, high-price cars have combination red brake/turn/tail lights in the US market. I don't have year-by-year data, but I have been keeping an eye on this for many years, and I can't think of a time when it even began to look like the combination brake/turn light (or red turn signals of any type) were losing popularity.
 

greatscoot

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Fortunately in Euro land, our brakes lights are red and indicators are amber which gives the person viewing less to have to process. Plus the dynamic brakes lights are only activated from speeds above 51kmph under heavy braking so are rarely seen and therefore the motoring public don't become complacent to them.

Maybe if the pencil pushers came out for ride-a-longs and had the opportunity to scrape casualties off of the roads then perhaps they'd speed up the process of introducing safety features.
It's my understanding that this was supposed to be implemented in the U.S but never was standardized. That's pretty ridiculous seeing how much of a difference this makes.
 
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