Flashlight Helps With Defense

[Diesel_Bomber]

This evening my wife and I dined with some friends of ours that don't live in a very nice neighborhood. After dinner we were walking the block and a half back to our car when a man ~30 feet away pulled out a knife and demanded that we hand over any money we had. I blasted him in the retinas with my lowly 40 lumen SL PP Lux AA, which was already in my hand. He put up his hand as if I had actually struck him, which gave my wife enough of a distraction to draw her Beretta. I turned off the light and, with my wife covering me, drew my Taurus. The gentleman who wished us to make a contribution to his ailing finances actually said "C'mon man, I was only joking!" :ironic: My wife and I were not amused. Before we could say so, he started backing up slowly and then ran away. My wife and I didn't reholster our weapons until we were safely in our car and had driven several blocks.

My wife and I were stupid. What we should have done is light the idiot up, and then use the time given to run away, back to our friend's house to call the police. While I have no qualms about drawing my weapon on someone threatening my wife's or my safety, there was another option available and that's what we should have done. We've already reported the incident to the police and our friends in the area. I'm taking time to remember how much I love my wife, be thankful for our safety, and to be thankful I don't live in the city.

Another point I'd like to touch on is: A flashlight is not a defensive tool in and of itself. Anyone who thinks so is wrong. Without a backup plan to make use of the possible(NOT assured) opening created by blasting a night-vision adapted person with a bright light, blasting them in the eyes is only going to **** them off.

Any suggestions for next time? Ideas? I'd really like to hear LEO's opinions. :buddies:

 

[creampuff]

While I am not LEO, and I live in a state where I cannot CCW, I have to say drawing was the wiser choice, rather than lighting him up and running away.

30 feet may sound like a decent distance, but it is not. It does not take long for a person with a knife to close down on 30 feet. If I lived in a state where I could CCW, I would consider your scenario, a time where I would draw as well.

 

[paulr]

I think you did the right thing, or maybe if your Taurus was open-holstered it would have been enough to display it. If you just turned and started running, the moron might have run after you, and if he was faster, then you might have had to turn around and start firing. By establishing peace through superior firepower from 30 feet away, you stopped any escalation before it could start.

 

[Lightraven]

OK, LEO here. I've squared off against a knife wielder off duty also, though different circumstances.

Interesting how this bad guy stood 30 feet away to make his demand. That was very much to your favor.

I think this situation was handled well, though I personally would have done things differently only because of my job. Having two guns and a flashlight aimed at the bad guy put you in a very advantageous position.

I don't think turning and running is the ideal choice in every situation--or even possible in some circumstances. In this specific event, drawing a gun is the smart move. Slowly backing away, while keeping the gun aimed in would increase your advantage, but not turning your back or running. There is some danger here that if he had rushed you or the wife, you guys might have shot each other in the chaos. I was in a Simunition scenario like this in June. You'd need to shoot very carefully to avoid hitting each other.

Were you carrying a cell phone to call police? The sooner they arrive, the greater the likelihood of arrest and prevent future armed robberies.

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Interesting how this bad guy stood 30 feet away to make his demand. That was very much to your favor.

No kidding. Had he been within 5 feet there'd have been little we could have done save go hand-to-hand with a knife wielding attacker. We'd have just handed over our money and hoped we could make an opening.

I don't think turning and running is the ideal choice in every situation--or even possible in some circumstances. In this specific event, drawing a gun is the smart move. Slowly backing away, while keeping the gun aimed in would increase your advantage, but not turning your back or running. There is some danger here that if he had rushed you or the wife, you guys might have shot each other in the chaos. I was in a Simunition scenario like this in June. You'd need to shoot very carefully to avoid hitting each other.

That idiot was not moving well at all, and I think the overwhelming odds were that we could have outrun him. But not definitely, it may have been a ruse. Or he might have had a gun himself, concealed. While my wife and I have talked about that very situation and we're both fairly decent shots(she better than I) and I think we'd have been okay, you know far better than I do how easily preparation goes to hell in a situation like that.

Were you carrying a cell phone to call police? The sooner they arrive, the greater the likelihood of arrest and prevent future armed robberies.

We were both carrying cellphones and my wife was talking to the 911 operator as soon as she had her weapon holstered. We were able to give a pretty good description, but we haven't heard whether he's apprehended or not. I tend to doubt he ever will be.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'm glad it appears we did the right thing, and I'm thankful for the opportunity to learn. :buddies:

 

[amlim]

No kidding. Had he been within 5 feet there'd have been little we could have done save go hand-to-hand with a knife wielding attacker. We'd have just handed over our money and hoped we could make an opening.

That idiot was not moving well at all, and I think the overwhelming odds were that we could have outrun him. But not definitely, it may have been a ruse. Or he might have had a gun himself, concealed. While my wife and I have talked about that very situation and we're both fairly decent shots(she better than I) and I think we'd have been okay, you know far better than I do how easily preparation goes to hell in a situation like that.

We were both carrying cellphones and my wife was talking to the 911 operator as soon as she had her weapon holstered. We were able to give a pretty good description, but we haven't heard whether he's apprehended or not. I tend to doubt he ever will be.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'm glad it appears we did the right thing, and I'm thankful for the opportunity to learn. :buddies:

glad to hear that both you and your wife are safe.

 

[TorchEnvy]

Had he continued to advance on you, shots would obviously be justified. Good thing it didn't come to that.

Then again, I feel that anyone who would pull a knife on someone and demand money deserves to be shot just on principle.

 

[Lightraven]

According to California law, deadly force is justified to prevent rape or robbery. Since the robbery was occuring, deadly force would seem to be justified at the time the guns were drawn. Approaching with a knife after a robbery demand would only strengthen this justification--creating a reasonable belief that serious injury/death was imminent.

***This is not legal advice, but an educated opinion***

 

[Burgess]

Glad to hear that everything worked out well.


Hope that the authorities find the fellow who attempted to rob you.


_

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Thanks for the kind words. :thumbsup:

No news about the police catching that would-be robber. I'm hoping he tries that again on the wrong people and they actually shoot him. Glad my wife and I didn't have to.

:buddies:

 

[greenlight]

That's what the flashlight is for: Use it to illuminate your firepower (guns), THEN blind the sucker.

If you do it the other way around he doesn't get as good a view of your gun before you shoot him.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Great Original Post, Diesel_Bomber. Wish you were my neighbor.

 

[turkdc]

According to California law, deadly force is justified to prevent rape or robbery. Since the robbery was occuring, deadly force would seem to be justified at the time the guns were drawn. Approaching with a knife after a robbery demand would only strengthen this justification--creating a reasonable belief that serious injury/death was imminent.

***This is not legal advice, but an educated opinion***

It really doesn't matter what the law says but rather what a jury thinks about the situation. I would question whether a shooting was absolutely necessary if the attacker was 30 ft away and standing still. (But I would probably still vote to acquit).

Having said that, it is hard to know what I would do unless I was in the situation. I am happy that everyone escaped unharmed.

 

[Lightraven]

Turkdc,

I partially agree. The law matters because a jury uses the law as a guideline to their thought process, as does the prosecuting attorney and judge.

Will all those people simply ignore what the law says and go with their personal opinion? And if they do, won't their decision be overturned on appeal?

I have been on a criminal jury and the biggest debate was over the text of the law and whether it applied to the defendant. One juror wanted definitions of words like "aggravated" to help him decide. The judge said basically, "Use your own knowledge."

There are many factors that come into play in these situations. The prejudices of the prosecutor and the jury are important, but the law is also important.

Big city prosecutors are experienced and knowledgeable enough, probably, to take into account the totality of the circumstances. They may know how many seconds it takes an attacker to run forward 30 feet with a knife, the reaction time of a defender with a gun and the incapacitation effect of handgun bullets from various calibers. I've done this drill several times, both live fire and simunition with an expert witness (ex-LAPD metro firearms instructor) who constructed his own "knife attack" simulator to show juries what this looks like.

That doesn't even take into account the possibility of the attacker throwing the knife at the defender. It also doesn't account for the danger the robber presents to the greater public, who may not be armed to defend themselves against the guy.

With all that said, one of my coworkers shot and killed a guy with a knife who was walking towards him, swinging the knife. Another tackled and arrested a guy who slashed his face with a knife. A third coworker shot and killed a bad guy standing in front of him with a machete. A fourth from a sister agency was stabbed recently by a detainee in an interview room. The detainee was disarmed. My own incident was resolved without violence from 15 feet because I felt I could react quickly enough had I needed to. One coworker was stabbed and killed years ago off duty by a person he saw murder another.

People can use force when they are in danger (especially from a robber, rapist or burglar), even before the danger has reached the penultimate moment of the "upraised knife"--to borrow a term from Oliver Wendell Holmes, U.S. supreme court justice.

 

[stephenmadpotato]

Wow, excellent work!!!!!! Really, I have to congradulate you on that. Your wife is my hero, carrying a berretta, whew. Anyways, good job and stay safe.
Stephen

 

[beach honda]

+1 to the good guys! Great job staying prepared! If it were me, I would have shot him dead the minute I saw that knife....

And the cops would have congratulated me.

Glad u and the wife are safe!!!

-chris

 

[skalomax]

Diesel Bomber, what state do you reside in?


hope you don't mind me asking.
Glad everything worked out ok.

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Hey folks, thanks for the kind words. Mr. Umbra, I wish you were my neighbor as well, I imagine we'd get along well. I live in Oregon. Just called the police station, no leads on the would-be robber ever came in. I sincerely hope he's been scared away from a life of crime, but I'm far too cynical to believe that's the case. Thanks for the opinions, everyone. Truly appreciated. :buddies:

 

[Jay R]

We can't carry guns in England but if it were me.... I'd have shot him in the leg. "He came at me and my wife with a knife your Honour".