Flashlights as a self defence tool

[Lurker]

I agree with the MiniMag advice for these reasons:

As a weapon:
- The size and shape is nearly ideal as a kubotan.
- All impact points are durable solid aluminum.
- Switch is not activated by impact.
- The smooth, thin shape is a breeze to pocket-carry and never abrasive on your clothes.
- It is very innocent-looking and widely recognized as "just a flashlight."

As a utility light,
- AA batteries are cheap and universally available, including rechargeable options and lithium.
- you have a number of choices for bulbs and LED upgrades to meet your needs.
- body is cheap to replace if lost or damaged, or when you just want a fresh finish or new color.

Also note that you can improve the brightness somewhat with less expensive options such as upgrading with a NexStar bulb and/or lithium batteries. Something like the BB500 would, of course, be better.

 

[Entropy]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorridsky said:
thankyou for all the replies!
the batonlite seems the obvious choice, but as it is infact a baton, and also not very bright, it cant be included /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I like the idea of a 2AA BB500 mod. thats about the size im looking at, no bigger. I have a 4D in the car, but when out for dinner, i dont want it swinging by my knee's pulling down my pants!

Does anyone sell complete 2AA BB500 lights to the UK at all?
I'd be needing a tough lens aswell,
How Bright is the BB500 compared to say.. a SL 4AA LED?


[/ QUOTE ]
No contest. The BB500 (even the 400) will eat anything using less than 10 5mm LEDs for lunch. I would put the number closer to 15-20 5mm LEDs (depending on how hard the 5mms are overdriven.)

 

[Blikbok]

I like the idea of the Minimag as recognizable, and it's cheap enough to lose and replace.

 

[Sorridsky]

i saw this in another thread:

http://www.led-and-xenon.com/english/X_22.html

I dont know how good it is, or its exact size, but it sounds about perfect?

 

[webley445]

I feel that the 2AA torch is an excellent option.

Some points to keep in mind for using the AA torch. Keep it where readily accessible [the factory holster is good, makes it further recognizable as "just a flashlight" as previously mentioned and allows for quickdraw when needed].

Consider its other uses besides just impact weapon. If in a situation where two bodies clash in a crush and are wrestling, you can use the light to press upon tender areas of the body for pain compliance, trying to make them distance themselves from you. When in a clench, hold the torch as a kobutan and press against the ribcage, front or back, the pelvis or hips. I f possible, place your weight behind the light while it is pressing down on bone, it doesn't feel good.

Another excellent target that causes alot of immediate pain is the sternum, a strike on it with the butt end of the light or even just using your knuckle and rubbing it vigorously will cause a tremendous amount of pain.
These will work also on the skull and face.

Finally one other trick that a retired cop friend told me about. Ever seen an ols wooden baton that had a metal bead on the bottom of the grip? I always it was just to use as a pommel for striking but it has a secondary use. He told me that they were taught to press that beadinto the skin and puch upward. Then the thumb is pressed down on the flap of skin that is presented by the bead and pull and/or twist. It causes alot of pain and distract the assailant from their current activities.

I always suggest to people that if the opportunity arises to escape to at least attempt to do us. This makes it all look good later especially if you had to use a weapon to defend your self. It shows that you were not bent on malicious intent just because you had something in your hand to use. Things can and often do get turned around so that fault can be placed on you for improper actions.

Just some fruit for thought. Personnaly I like the 2AA M*g with drop in option, but the SF can really help in blinding a person monentarily.

 

[brightnorm]

Much good advice here, but I have one caveat.
If you must use a small flashlight as a striking weapon or kubaton because of regressive self defense laws, it's very important to have sufficient training and practice so that you will use it instinctively and correctly against an assailant.

The flashlight/kubaton approach is an example of what I call the "Stun-Hurt" sequence. I feel the best nighttime application of that sequence for the ordinary civilian is Flashlight/OC spray, specifically Fox 5,000,000 SHU spray or stream/foam. This approach is best exemplified by the Tigerlight OC, and Fox OC is widely respected as the most effective OC. The big advantage of OC is your ability to avoid physical contact with an assailant who may be bigger, stronger, quicker and meaner than you.

I find the increasing tendency of municipalities and even whole countries to deprive ordinary citizens of rudimentary non-lethal means of self defense both alarming and reprehensible.

Brightnorm

 

[Sorridsky]

sadly, OC spray is illegal.
I personality cant belive the laws here, if the oppurtunity ever presents itself, i will be getting off this rock ASAP.

 

[tsg68]

Howdy,

Could you possibly get away with a GG&G Tactical impact device ( www.gggaz.com )? They make it to fit the Inova X5 and various Surefire lights and you could tell the Bobbys it's a cookie cutter! Actually nobody would know what the hell it was but you and you don't have to tell. We have the saying here in the states. "Better to be tried by a jury of twelve, than carried by six!" . Anyhow that's another viable option.

Good Luck,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Size15's]

I would not suggest carrying a TID equiped torch in the UK.
TID's look like they are intended for smashing someone's skull to mush.

If you don't get arrested for carrying it, the Police Officer is likely to take it off you.

I agree with Brightnorm. You must be trained and practised with your techniques and tools so that you can use them to your advantage. Otherwise you are increasing the risk to yourself and others.

Al

 

[EMPOWERTORCH]

It's not just what torch to carry, but how you use your torch that counts.
A flash of my 5W cyan torch in the eyes of an assailant will leave them disorientated and confused while you make your getaway.
Even when not switched on, it commands an air of authority about it! It is the torch of choice for "security" duties on camp sites, biker meets, etc.
Alternatively, you could carry a blue-light torch. I have a Benross 4033 modded with 5 blue Nichia LED's...the Blueross... Its effect on ne'er-do-wells is incredible. I've had motorists reversing away from me to get away from it! Whilst instilling fear into the criminal fraternitu, it is still very useable as a torch!

 

[tsg68]

Most self defense authorities now adays are advocating that any resistance, trained or untrained, is better than none at all. Timing and necessity is up to your instinct. They do however say the most important thing is that during an attack you remain lucid and continue to think. Look for objects you can use as weapons (bottles, ashcan lids, pipes etc.) be loudly vocal, try to draw attention from bystanders and fight enough to buy yourself an escape option, then take it. Take note of where you are and where you would go if cornered. Your mind and attention are your best weapons. Keep thinking and act. Practice but remember, every situation is different.

I personally have been carjacked, jumped multiple times, and was a nightclub bouncer for years. I have lived in Baltimore, Boston and now the last 7 years in NYC. Remember any weapon you use could be taken away and used on you in an attack. I've seen guys get "relieved" of their carry lights ( D and C cell Mags at that point in time) and had their faces rearranged with them. Urban assaults do not come announced and most of the assailants are completely unprepared for a counterassault and usually come unglued and run, especially when there is a chance they could be apprehended or killed. The current " mode de assault" here is that younger criminals travel in small packs (three or so) and try to get you to stop and talk to them. I ignore them and head for more populated territory. In this situation, if cornered, I would go for the instigator or leader and hurt him as badly as possible and hope the assault would fall apart due to lack of leadership, But like I said It's all different and all subject to split second change. When I worked in the clubs I carried a minimag (worked great on pressure points) and sometimes a CASCO collapsable baton as backup (never had to use it though) I now travel with a SF C2 in my pocket and when I walk in unfamiliar territory or am in doubt of my safety, I keep my hand in my pocket and my thumb on the switch. That light could buy me precious seconds. Here we can legally carry a knife up to four inches in blade length and I go for the max with a microtech Socom. I recently scared off a junkie that tried to come after me when I refused to buy a watch off him for $10 on my walk home from work, He took after me at a dead run and when I spun, produced the knife and announced loudly what I was going to do to him with it he stopped dead in his tracks looked at the knife turned around and took off around the corner, nothing hurt but his ability to score drugs for a few more hours.

Staying alert and continuing to function are definitely where its at if you can't afford training, practicing with the stuff you use (deployment, attack) is second, and training if you can get it is third.

Stay safe,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[llvo]

If you are not properly trained, a knife or a kubaton won't do any good.
Moreover, when you are having some trouble, you are often NOT in a one on one situation, i.e. one to two, one to several.

So, get yourself out of there would be the better choice.
IMHO, using a high output flashlight to stun a threat and then run away suit us untrained civilians more(at least myself, I know there are many LEO here)

BTW, I use a D3 with P91 HOLA

 

[Icebreak]

Most excellent thread.

Wanting to know more about Kubotan tactics and techniques the first hit on Google nets this:

http://www.reliapon.com/trainingBV.htm

One of the 'books' they offer is "DEFENSIVE TACTICS WITH FLASHLIGHTS".

The descripton of chapter II in this book is "Flashlights: Selecting The One That Best Fits Your Needs is a must reading before you select a flashlight."

Here's an idea. What about a flatheaded, cone shaped replacement tail cap? Also, what about a flatheaded, cone shaped clickie with tolerences that barely allowed a Kroll switch to peek out? I'm picturing a McLux tailcap but conical.

 

[xtan1x]

Well ok, the way I see it is if someone is trying to mug me or something, I will do whatever I can and as much of it as possibele.

My approach to the flashlights as self defense is this: Carry a surefire to temporarily stun them with the brighness. Also carry a minimag on a long lanyard to swing and knock 'em in the head as hard as possible while they are stunned. Then, depending on the person, keep on hitting them with the mag until they are down, or get the hell out of there. Or I could replace the mag with OC and just spray them while they are stunned. Keep in mind I have no remorse for anything I do to someone who tries to attack me (well im not gonna go as far as kill them either).

 

[dougmccoy]

To those of us in the UK the use of a flashlight as a weapon brings many complications with existing laws about 'offensive weapons'. A good example would be a TID (tactical Impact Device) which would be regared as an illegal weapon. The law would see this device as having no function other than to inflict injury. Its self defence uses would not be admissable in UK law as a justification for carrying it. An equally good example of the way UK law works is if a person was carrying a six Cell 'D' size Ma*lite in a public place and using it in threatening manor then they too could be charged with being in possession of an offensive weapon. However, it would be almost impossible for the law to prove or stop anyone in the UK carrying a Mini-Ma*lite. Its use in a self defense role would be simply regarded as using whatever came to hand to 'protect' themselves from injury even if the attacker was injured. This defence would fail if it could be proved that you had received or undertaken specific training to use a Mini-Ma*lite as a weapon!

My suggestion for those of us in the UK is to carry a Mini-Ma*lite with them after reading how to use it as a Kubaton. This way it should be possible to avoid any problems with the law as well as being able to feel a little more secure than one would without anything on your person.

Sorry about going on, but this is one area that is a minefield in UK law and I'd hate to think that someone in the UK was not aware of their position about carrying lights as a weapon.

Doug

 

[Ross]

As a police officer in the UK, I can concur with what Doug has said, the TID would be classified as a 'made' offensive weapon and I would have no qualms taking one off someone.

Fortunately, in the UK, most of us live in fairly peaceful places, and the need for self-defence is minimal BUT is does pay to be prepared and the best way to do that is through TRAINING. You can go on loads of courses which will help you see off most assailants, you cannot, however, carry a weapon which will help you see off most assailants.
The courts treat the carrying of an offensive weapon as a very serious offence (even if it is your first) and it would not be worth getting a criminal record for simply carrying the wrong torch. Get a mini-mag, get a keyring kubotan (not illegal) or something similar - anything else and you run the risk of being at the wrong end of the law yourself...

Ross

 

[NJL]

Hi Ross,

Your advice to get a keyring Kubotan seems a bit at odds with the first sentance of your post. Surely a Kubotan is a "Made" offensive weapon by its very nature. It is designed for self defence & therefore I assume it would be seen as illegal to carry in the UK, similar to a Comtec Stinger (sp?), a baton or a cosh. Am I missing something obvious?

No offence meant, just curious for clarification from a serving officers point of view.

Regards

Nigel

 

[hokiefritz]

Don't mean to cause hard feelings or anything, but what dougmccoy said about the law in the UK struck home with me: "The courts treat the carrying of an offensive weapon as a very serious offence (even if it is your first) and it would not be worth getting a criminal record for simply carrying the wrong torch. "
Doesn't this sound absolutely absurd to anyone else? I have no desire to hurt anyone but if I want to carry a 6D maglight, and there are plenty of reasons why someone might, I'm free to do so in my country. Amazing. It sounds like you're much more likely to be victimized by your own government than a criminal. I guess maybe I don't have the correct mindset to understand this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif Sorry to get worked up about it - I don't even live there.

 

[Ross]

hokiefritz - I know exactly what you mean, and I'm the one who wrote the above input!! I understand entirely that alot of people all over the world are free to carry whatever they want on their person but in the UK we try and stop EVERYONE from carrying weapons, not just the good guys!
I would love to be able to carry round some form of weapon that I could use off duty to stop some scumbag stealing my car/wallet/girlfriend etc but I can't, so I don't!
Alot of the law in the UK places great emphasis on the intent, i.e. why do you need to carry a 6D maglite around?? If you are a security guard/you need one in your car/etc etc then no problem at all, but if you had a group of kids on a street corner and they all had 6D maglites then wouldn't you think they had them for slightly different reasons than you?
At the end of the day, the chances of you getting searched if you are a law abiding citizen are VERY slim anyway - so dont worry!! if you can demonstrate that you need to carry a huge torch then good luck to you!! If a G2 etc will suffice - then carry one of them!

I think this has probably been discussed on various other threads but if anyone wants to start a new thread to discuss this, I would be more than happy to contribute.

Ross

 

[Ross]

Hi Nigel,
Sorry, missed your post before. I appreciate what you mean and the way I was trying to describe it was a bit mixed up (I can see that now)... sorry for the confusion..
Basically, you could demonstrate that a pocket kubotan (which by the way could be ANYTHING kubotan 'shaped') was something else - i.e. a mini maglite, a keyring, a tool for something, rather than an obvious offensive weapon.
If i searched someone and they had a small polymer stick measuring 5 inches long and they had their keys attached to it, I would not think twice that it was an offensive weapon, I would think it was a keyring! On the other hand, if someone had a stungun, baton,cosh,knive etc in their pocket, I would wonder about their intentions and arrest them!!
At the end of the day, it is the courts that decide what is an offensive weapon and I think they would be unlikely to interpret a kubotan shaped item as one.
Hope this makes sense....

Ross