For Anyone Who's Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

[lambda]

For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

Thought I'd let you all see what this brand spanking new Surefire E1e looks like. Not only is the head kind of greenish and lighter than the body, but the front bezel is about three times darker than the rest of the finish.

And this was bought retail, no seconds here.

Kind of makes an Arc second look pretty good, doesn't it?

 

[Sean]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

Surefire's FAQ says that HA pieces not matching is "normal", so they don't seem to even try to match it up.

My E1e looks the same way.

I agree & think Peter is doing a good job at matching HA, given the circumstances.

 

[Chris M.]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

The parts of my M3 don`t entirely match when viewed in the right light but oh Man, that`s well off

I think a call to SureFire Customer Service is in order there. That`s about the worst I`ve seen on a SF lite....

 

[Darell]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

Yup. I had an E2 that looked about that way. Back when I got it, I thought it was supposed to be two-toned.

 

[Size15's]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

SureFire HA is produced to a thickness, regardless of colour shading. This is for performance, and not for looks.

I guess that the different parts that make up SureFires are bulk anodized in batches, and they meet up for assembly.

I don't want a SureFire that has matched HA if it means that parts start to wear before others.

If the darkness of HA is an indication of the thickness, and therefore the performance, I would expect the Bezel to be darker for increased protection.

At the end of the day, I need my tools to perform, not for posing.

Al

 

[SCOTT THE BADGER]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

Well said , Mr. Windler.

 

[Size15's]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

I am pleased that other companies such as Arc are producing HA versions of their products. My concern is that SureFire's HA has built an impressive and trusted opinion of what HA is, what it can do, and how HA should perform.

I don't want to see HA being given a bad name because "HA" becomes a label used to sell product rather like calling something "Tactical".
Obviously, HA varies. SureFires have to be resistant to the abusive conditions they are used in all the time.
I would hate to find out that a customer didn't invest in a SureFire product because he had a bad experience with a competitor's idea of what HA is.

Peter's Arc HA, I have no experience with, and infact I've not had any experience with any non-SureFire HA. My ArcAAA is a dull black anodise - certainly not HA judging it by SureFire HA benchmark.

I am voicing my concern about a possible way things could go if HA become a bandwagon.

Al

 

[Gransee]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

I agree, just because a part is claimed to be hard anodized, doesn't automatically make it a winner.


There are several types of anodize that can be applied to aluminum. Type II with a HRC of about 40 and type III with an HRC of over 50. There are two classes for each type. Class 1 has no pigment added ("natural") and Class 2 is dyed.

Hard Anodize (HA) has been in use by many industries for years before we came along. Industries including medical equipment, firearms, marine, automotive, aerospace, electrical, cookware and even some flashlights.

HA can be color dyed or teflon impregnated before the surface is sealed. Arc uses both natural (no dye) and black (some black dye) colors in our HA.

We did not start to use HA in our Arc-AAA black finish until early this year. Our natural colored products (LE and LS) have always been type III, class 1, Hard Anodize.

Whereas type II is applied into the surface of the metal, type III is 50/50. Meaning 50% is absorbed into the surface and 50% coats the surface. Typical thickeness are .001 to .005 inches.

The thickeness is determined by the combination of the particular base material alloy, current applied and process time.

A thicker coating is not always the best for every application. Thicker coatings chip easier and tend to ablate around sharp edges and protusions.

You can tell what alloy and thickness is used simply by the tint of the finish. You will notice that both Arc and Surefire use 6061 aluminum and their HA is applied in the same thickness range. We have found this thickness is a good compromise between edge and flat durability.

Our plater has a coating thickness meter (uses ultrasound?) on the bench in the same room where the coatings are applied, they also have several more machines in the the QC area that use more varied methadologies including x-ray. But the, "in process QC" metrics provides instant feedback on the batch so it can be tuned. Too thin, and it goes back into the tank without delay.

Tint matching is a intergral part of the post process QC because the tint is a good indicator of thickness. It is not just a "cosmetic" factor. You have heard that, "form follows function", that applies to anodize as well. The darker the tint, the thicker the coating. If one piece is lighter than the other, it most likely is thinner.

That is why we do not charge full price when the pieces obviously are not all the same thickeness. We do have an ideal range we shoot for in our factory firsts. Naturally, being this picky about anodize costs us (and you) more money.

Its your choice.

Peter Gransee

 

[McGizmo]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

Peter,

Thanks for the insight on the Arc material being used. Is the 6061 T6?

Having turned down the HA on some Arc product, I will attest to it's hardness. In addition, 6061 is the Al of choice in marine hardware where abrasion and environment are typically more severe that most flashlights will encounter.

I for one am impressed with Peter's choice of materials and coating practices.

I also agree with Al that appearance should take back seat to function and quality. Al, do you know what Al alloy is used by SureFire?

- Don

 

[Darell]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

Al -

Just as you were posting your last comment, I was thinking that I hope SF manages to keep up with Arc in the HA quality department. As you can tell, Peter is doing a fantastic job with his coatings, and knows what he's talking about. My HA Arc AAA's are second to none in durability of the coating. Maybe on par with SF, but certainly not behind.

Thicker is not always better, and I'd rather have a light that is evenly coated for even wear. Having a thicker coating on the bezel may offer you the opposite effect for which you're hoping.

At the end of *my* days, I still like to pose.

 

[Sean]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gransee:

Tint matching is a intergral part of the post process QC because the tint is a good indicator of thickness. It is not just a "cosmetic" factor. You have heard that, "form follows function", that applies to anodize as well. The darker the tint, the thicker the coating. If one piece is lighter than the other, it most likely is thinner.

That is why we do not charge full price when the pieces obviously are not all the same thickeness. We do have an ideal range we shoot for in our factory firsts. Naturally, being this picky about anodize costs us (and you) more money.

Its your choice.

Peter Gransee<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's nice to know that there is a company out there that optimizes and matches their HA pieces for their flashlights, an abviously expensive process. Unlike the Surefire attitude of: "Since it's a Surefire it must be right". "This is for performance, and not for looks." If this were true then the HA wouldn't vary from product to product. If the HA doesn't match you are just suppose to accept this. I disagree, I believe the HA Surefire produces varies as Peter said but is within a given "tolerance", giving them the right to say that it's normal and doesn't affect HA hardness. I never said I wanted Surefire to HA differently. I'm saying that since their way of HA produces various shades, of all pieces, why don't they simply color match the peices so you get a close match of all pieces on the flashlight. That's what I expect from the "best" flashlight, both performace and looks.

Would you buy a luxury car if the different body pieces were different shades of the same color? And the salesman told you that it looks that way because we paint the car for performance, not looks? The point is that the pieces can be matched up but Surefire chooses not to. Very unfortunate, IMO.

 

[Klaus]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

LOL @ Sean,

you are so right - while I might add that your "Since it's a Surefire it must be right" was never heard directly from SF employees nor Master PK himself but while maybe not directly word-for-word it is certainly the underlying mantra from **Youknowwhom**

BTW: My ARC SLS and SF E2e are pretty similar in slightly missmatching HA

Klaus

 

[Size15's]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

I strongly disagree that "Since it's a Surefire it must be right" I've not been giving SureFire grief over the last few years because they must be right!

Many of the things SureFire does leads the industry, and the path they decide to take isn't always the right way for the rest behind. Sometimes the urge to follow the light is difficult to resist if you spend all the time in the shadow. The guy ahead putting on his raincoat is a good indication that he knows something you don't. However, a different path won't always mean you stay dry.

My understanding is that SureFire uses a T8 Alloy for many of their parts - Apparently, it's better for machining complex shapes, and many SureFires have such complex designs.

Without being an Anodising expert myself, but from my experience of abusive field-testing of SureFires, I do hold SureFire HA as the benchmark because they are my only frame of reference. Just because Arc products have HA isn't a reason for getting one (obviously, there are more to Arc products then their HA coatings!)
But HA is a valuable feature to have - especially on items intended for EDC.

I am scared that 'painting' a flashlight grey to look like HA is going to ruin the good names that SureFire and Arc have built.

Al

 

[Sean]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Klaus:
LOL @ Sean,

you are so right - while I might add that your "Since it's a Surefire it must be right" was never heard directly from SF employees nor Master PK himself but while maybe not directly word-for-word it is certainly the underlying mantra from **Youknowwhom**

BTW: My ARC SLS and SF E2e are pretty similar in slightly missmatching HA

Klaus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember, nobody is perfect.

 

[Unforgiven]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am scared that 'painting' a flashlight grey to look like HA is going to ruin the good names that SureFire and Arc have built. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't be "scared" I've not seen any paint that looked nearly as good as properly applied HA.

 

[brightnorm]

Re: For Anyone Who\'s Ever Whined to Peter About the Arc Anodizing

Every part of my newly acquired M2 is matched to within a closer tolerance than the human eye (at least mine) can perceive differences in tint.

My AAA Le's bezel and body are perfectly matched and have lived in my metal gizmo-filled pocket on a multi-key ring for almost a year and suffered not one single scratch or mark.

I fully agree with Al and Scott that function trumps form, especially in a "professional" situation; but truth be told, form is important to Flashaholics because we are not just tacticians and technicians, but also "aestheticians" who appreciate the special beauty of a superbly designed and executed machine.

That is why I would return any Surefire (or ARC) light with parts as mismatched as Lambda's E1e. While it is surely true that Special Forces entering Afghanistan caves will not be focused on anodize color, there still is a tacit assumption most of us have that a top company like Surefire will adhere to certain aesthetic as well as functional standards and not fall below a level that will tarnish their fine image and reputation.

Brightnorm