? for surefire nuts
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Size15's
Flashaholic
It's important to point out that SureFire are for use in situations usually at close to medium range where quality light from a tough small tool is required.
Situations that can result in death or injury if the right tools and training have not been invested in.
The difference between SureFire and other brands is that lives depend on the SureFire lights. You pay for a life saving tool, not just a flashlight.
The Millennium 2.5" TurboHead flashlights (M3T, M4 & M6) can be used to illuminate longer range targets, but they are not really spot/searchlights designed specifically for long range target illumination.
Also, it should be remembered that the reflectors of these larger bulkier lights are about four times the area of the SureFire TurboHeads at 5-6" diameter(can I do math? :- double the radius = four times the area?). The shear size of these lights mean they are not suitable for the more "tactical" situations for use with a firearm or similar weapon.
Although I'm not certain, there are new Millennium Extended Range 3" TurboHead kits which from my shop demo of the 9NT, I assume will produce the same tighter spot more suited to long range illumination.
You can not expect the 2.5" reflector to produce a long range beam like a 6" searchlight reflector. However, the light quality and brightness of SureFire can often mean that they can easily compete with searchlights many time's their own size.
Alastair (SureFire Nut)
[I hope I wasn't ranting too much!]
<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Size15s on 01-18-2001 at 05:45 PM</font>
Situations that can result in death or injury if the right tools and training have not been invested in.
The difference between SureFire and other brands is that lives depend on the SureFire lights. You pay for a life saving tool, not just a flashlight.
The Millennium 2.5" TurboHead flashlights (M3T, M4 & M6) can be used to illuminate longer range targets, but they are not really spot/searchlights designed specifically for long range target illumination.
Also, it should be remembered that the reflectors of these larger bulkier lights are about four times the area of the SureFire TurboHeads at 5-6" diameter(can I do math? :- double the radius = four times the area?). The shear size of these lights mean they are not suitable for the more "tactical" situations for use with a firearm or similar weapon.
Although I'm not certain, there are new Millennium Extended Range 3" TurboHead kits which from my shop demo of the 9NT, I assume will produce the same tighter spot more suited to long range illumination.
You can not expect the 2.5" reflector to produce a long range beam like a 6" searchlight reflector. However, the light quality and brightness of SureFire can often mean that they can easily compete with searchlights many time's their own size.
Alastair (SureFire Nut)
[I hope I wasn't ranting too much!]
<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Size15s on 01-18-2001 at 05:45 PM</font>
WillnTex
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2000
- Messages
- 95
I have to agree with Size15 the Sure Fire lights were made as tactical lights. The small size and rear mounted switch make them ideal for use in flashlight assisted shooting methods such as the Harris Technique. The switch on the Sure Fire is extremely simple with nothing to break. Most of the other lights have a more complex switch which is more prone to failure. While this may be a small problem to some the failure of the light while searching for a burglar in a dark building can make life a little too interesting. The beam quality of the lights is important so that you can identify what you are aiming at. The less P/C translation of Size15's close to medium range is that they are focused at about the distance you would want if you were using the light to aim a firearm. If you ever doubt that Sure Fire lights are made for use with firearms notice that many now have smaller diameter bodies in the center of the light. It is made so that the light goes between the fingers with the rear activation button against the palm. When the light is held in the Rodgers/Sure Fire method with a pistol the light shines parallel to the bore when the light is activated.
hmmwv
Newly Enlightened
I don't think a comparison between surefires and the handheld spotlights is remotely fair - they have different purposes.
For $20 - you can get a 500,000 cp pistol grip light and keep it in the car to see streetsigns and house numbers while driving. It's like a high beam headlamp with a cig. lighter plug.
For $60 - you can get a surefire to carry in your pocket/belt and have a reasonably bright light everywhere you go. Nobody would notice you carrying an E2 around - but the spotlight is a bit large for a night on the town.
Also -- while surefire lights are shaped like many other companies, the quality of the production is unsurpassed - if you buy one - you are investing in a quality tool, not a cheap light. You'd never see a cop banging on the end of his flashlight trying to get the dim beam to shine brighter while on the job - but the same "beat it till it works" approach to $5.99 lights is fine for the refrigerator repairman.
For me - I just got tired of banging on cheap lights to get them to work. I didn't like the dark spots and rings in the mag-lite products - and I settled on surefire lights.
For $20 - you can get a 500,000 cp pistol grip light and keep it in the car to see streetsigns and house numbers while driving. It's like a high beam headlamp with a cig. lighter plug.
For $60 - you can get a surefire to carry in your pocket/belt and have a reasonably bright light everywhere you go. Nobody would notice you carrying an E2 around - but the spotlight is a bit large for a night on the town.
Also -- while surefire lights are shaped like many other companies, the quality of the production is unsurpassed - if you buy one - you are investing in a quality tool, not a cheap light. You'd never see a cop banging on the end of his flashlight trying to get the dim beam to shine brighter while on the job - but the same "beat it till it works" approach to $5.99 lights is fine for the refrigerator repairman.
For me - I just got tired of banging on cheap lights to get them to work. I didn't like the dark spots and rings in the mag-lite products - and I settled on surefire lights.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Surefire lights are very bright, expensive to buy, VERY expensive to use (lithium batteries), they have expensive bulb assembly replacements ($20.00/unit), they are also impact/drop sensitive.
Surefires are the neatest thing out there for LEO and tactical scenarios. They are small & bright lights.
Surefire does not have enough competition, so they monopolize the market for which it is suited.
If lithium battery prices were reasonable then I would be reasonable.
Surefires are the only lights that produce clean beams with no dark circles.
But I prefer a wide beam as opposed to a narrow (surefire) tight beam.
I like to open up the focus and light up a greater area, on demand.
I prefer rechargeable lights, till I hit the lottery to buy all the "lithium's" that I would expend per week.
Surefires are cool, they are functional, they are bright but way too damn expensive to use for any budget.
Just for two lithium cells a day, I would blow over $130.00/month on lithiums.
Not cost effective.......absurd.
I don't care about "no stink-in" 10 year shelf life! I don't need no badge either.
I do care about spending $120.00/month on lithiums.
If you seldom use the surefire, just carry it cause it's cool. Then it might be cost effective.
I use the hell out of my lights daily. I don't have time to baby any surefires and their (10 year life span) one hour run time lithiums at $3.00/battery.
They make rechargeable lithium batteries for cell phones. Why not flashlights?
------------------
Seen any Martians?
Surefires are the neatest thing out there for LEO and tactical scenarios. They are small & bright lights.
Surefire does not have enough competition, so they monopolize the market for which it is suited.
If lithium battery prices were reasonable then I would be reasonable.
Surefires are the only lights that produce clean beams with no dark circles.
But I prefer a wide beam as opposed to a narrow (surefire) tight beam.
I like to open up the focus and light up a greater area, on demand.
I prefer rechargeable lights, till I hit the lottery to buy all the "lithium's" that I would expend per week.
Surefires are cool, they are functional, they are bright but way too damn expensive to use for any budget.
Just for two lithium cells a day, I would blow over $130.00/month on lithiums.
Not cost effective.......absurd.
I don't care about "no stink-in" 10 year shelf life! I don't need no badge either.
I do care about spending $120.00/month on lithiums.
If you seldom use the surefire, just carry it cause it's cool. Then it might be cost effective.
I use the hell out of my lights daily. I don't have time to baby any surefires and their (10 year life span) one hour run time lithiums at $3.00/battery.
They make rechargeable lithium batteries for cell phones. Why not flashlights?
------------------
Seen any Martians?
hmmwv
Newly Enlightened
Lithiums are seldom used every day - the example cited is unrealistic since almost all agencies issue rechargable lights, with lithiums used in tactical weapon lights or backup lights. There, the 10 year life is applicable, since an AR-15 may sit in a trunk for 5 years without use. If someone is entering a dark room with a 6 cell DL123 light attached to their AR-15 - then I can assure you - the battery cost is the last thing on their mind at that moment!
I use my SF 9N on a daily basis, and charge it daily - original cost $99 - after 2 years, I've gone through 2 batteries ($40) and one lamp ($20) - so $160 over 2 years is $80/yr - not bad for the amount of use it's gotten. The 9N also has the dual bulb advantage - a feature seldom found in a light that size. Having a backup bulb available at the twist of the head is a great feature - I wish other manufacturers included it. These innovative features are hard to find outside the surefire line.
(oh yea - don't expect 1000 charges on any rechargable - the fine print says, "UP TO" 1000 charges - that's if it's only drained 10% and then recharged. 300 recharges is more reasonable - figure a new battery once per year if its used daily)
I keep a 6P lithium with me in case the 9N is dead - but it's seldom used so the batteries get changed every few months. DL123s are $2 ea - $4 per set - $16 per year, plus another $15 for the lamp or about $30/yr. operating cost. Buying DL123s in bulk they are $1.65 ea.
If I'm not interested in taking a big light, and I don't anticipate using the light (night on the town) - I just grab the 6P and leave the 9N behind. This is where I might buy an E2 to replace the 6P - still smaller yet! When I travel, I usually just take the M2 and an extra set of lithiums since I travel light. The compact nature of the lithium lights is a real bonus for travelers who want a bright light for hotel / airplane / subway fires. Since the M2 will likely not get much use when traveling - I have the P61 lamp in it (20 minute runtime)
For some reason - I never bought into the 6R plan (an adaptable 6P with either lithium or rechargable use) - I'd rather carry 2 lights than a single light and a bunch of extra parts.
You can never compare the economy of any primary battery (either lithium or alkaline) with the rechargables. Rechargables are best for daily use - primary are best for storage / occasional use. When comparing lithium against alkalines - the output advantage and beam quality of the lithium lights combined with the discounted prices on DL123s make them very economical.
I use my SF 9N on a daily basis, and charge it daily - original cost $99 - after 2 years, I've gone through 2 batteries ($40) and one lamp ($20) - so $160 over 2 years is $80/yr - not bad for the amount of use it's gotten. The 9N also has the dual bulb advantage - a feature seldom found in a light that size. Having a backup bulb available at the twist of the head is a great feature - I wish other manufacturers included it. These innovative features are hard to find outside the surefire line.
(oh yea - don't expect 1000 charges on any rechargable - the fine print says, "UP TO" 1000 charges - that's if it's only drained 10% and then recharged. 300 recharges is more reasonable - figure a new battery once per year if its used daily)
I keep a 6P lithium with me in case the 9N is dead - but it's seldom used so the batteries get changed every few months. DL123s are $2 ea - $4 per set - $16 per year, plus another $15 for the lamp or about $30/yr. operating cost. Buying DL123s in bulk they are $1.65 ea.
If I'm not interested in taking a big light, and I don't anticipate using the light (night on the town) - I just grab the 6P and leave the 9N behind. This is where I might buy an E2 to replace the 6P - still smaller yet! When I travel, I usually just take the M2 and an extra set of lithiums since I travel light. The compact nature of the lithium lights is a real bonus for travelers who want a bright light for hotel / airplane / subway fires. Since the M2 will likely not get much use when traveling - I have the P61 lamp in it (20 minute runtime)
For some reason - I never bought into the 6R plan (an adaptable 6P with either lithium or rechargable use) - I'd rather carry 2 lights than a single light and a bunch of extra parts.
You can never compare the economy of any primary battery (either lithium or alkaline) with the rechargables. Rechargables are best for daily use - primary are best for storage / occasional use. When comparing lithium against alkalines - the output advantage and beam quality of the lithium lights combined with the discounted prices on DL123s make them very economical.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Like i said before, i work straight nights, and am pro-active, and have managed to use my 6z for 4-8 days and up to 12 days (10 hour shifts from 2100-0700). But what do i know? i dont do any math, and dont live on a kings ransom nor have i hit the lottery. i have personally used the stinger, and the mag-charger and still go for the sure fire. i also buy my own vest, as i like the best. for me my job may cost me my life. i have never had the surefire let me down, never. like i said you can adjust wide beams, small beams, middle beams and short beams or carry a 6 million candlepower rechargeable... what it boils down to is the next time i pull my light and my gun i have to identify if its friend or foe, armed or unarmed and shoot or dont shoot, not adjust, fiddle or watch as my light focuses on everything, with it not focusing on what i need. run through a crack house, or a backyard with pit-bulls and tell me how you need a wide beam, and ill tell you buy what works for you.this is only my opinion. if i fixed cars or refridgerators or such id stick with other lights. the sure fire lights are best for MY job, and MY style of work. i am not pushing them on you. i only am providing my experiance, as i have tried most of the lights. i have yet to spend 130 a month on batteries, as a matter of fact i have yet to spend 36 a month. a few civil lawsuits, suspensions or firings and you could have bought any light you wanted.
<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by MCInfantry on 01-19-2001 at 12:53 AM</font>
<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by MCInfantry on 01-19-2001 at 12:53 AM</font>
dano
Flashlight Enthusiast
On duty, I have my modified 20X, and a stinger...in teh summer, when I work in more daylight, I usually have a 6P...All in all, I have three SF's: 6P, G-2, and a Defender with mini turbo head...The smaller lithium lights are really cool for backup purposes, but for SF's larger models, I dont think they are worth 200-300 bucks, like the new 10X, or the M-6...
--dan
--dan
Size15's
Flashaholic
Okay so Lithiums are expensive for "Duty" use. Lithiums are far more expensive outside the USA so quit complaining!
SureFire's rechargeable flashlights are for more intensive "duty" use. Like people have said, the Lithium lights are for tactical situations, not every night for 6 hours runtime!
The 10X will be well worth the money (You U.S. guys get them far cheaper too (33-50% cheaper) and SureFire is an investment.
The Millennium Series M2, M3, M3T and M6 are significantly more shock isolated, and I've field-tested the new M2, M3T and M6 intensively and have never broken or damaged a lamp module.
Rechargeable flashlights are a one off investment that pay for themselves quickly with minimal costs down the line (Lamp Modules & Replacement Rechargeable Batteries).
It's all about what you require, and SureFire gives you a huge range of options so that you can use their trademark beam output...
Alastair
SureFire's rechargeable flashlights are for more intensive "duty" use. Like people have said, the Lithium lights are for tactical situations, not every night for 6 hours runtime!
The 10X will be well worth the money (You U.S. guys get them far cheaper too (33-50% cheaper) and SureFire is an investment.
The Millennium Series M2, M3, M3T and M6 are significantly more shock isolated, and I've field-tested the new M2, M3T and M6 intensively and have never broken or damaged a lamp module.
Rechargeable flashlights are a one off investment that pay for themselves quickly with minimal costs down the line (Lamp Modules & Replacement Rechargeable Batteries).
It's all about what you require, and SureFire gives you a huge range of options so that you can use their trademark beam output...
Alastair
Brock
Flashaholic
Well how I got in to this whole "flashlight" thing is that I work in a dark theatre. We do over 250 shows a year and often it is completely dark or very, very dim and I need to see things. I probably use my D2 about 20 times a week for about 30 seconds on average. I can't find a light that is this small, bright and a great beam yet (E2). I don't want to lug around a big light, even a rechargeable light is about twice the weight and size for the same brightness. So for me it is really the only light that fits the bill. I do carry a red and white photon on a lanyard for those times when my bright light might disturb the audience, or if I want to keep my night vision. The clip on the M2 and D2 make this perfect for how I use the light.
As far as lithium's go it isn't just the 10-year shelf life that makes them good. They maintain their voltage under load throughout their life. The voltage doesn't slowly drop as they are used. They can supply huge amounts of power for a short time, again still holding their voltage. There aren't any other non-rechargeable batteries that can do that. Yes you can get in to NiMH or Li-Ion or even NiCd but again you double the size and weight for the same runtime; again for me this just isn't an option.
If I used a set of batteries a day I might consider a dimmer light (same size and weight) with a rechargeable battery, but I will gladly pay for new batteries twice a month or so for the convince I get. I also use Sanyo's that I pay under $4 a set for.
I guess people have to access what they are going to do with the light and how it will really be used. Then find a light to match those needs. I believe for a lot of people lithium lights are not the way to go.
Just my $.02
Brock - http://www.uwgb.edu/nevermab/flash.htm
As far as lithium's go it isn't just the 10-year shelf life that makes them good. They maintain their voltage under load throughout their life. The voltage doesn't slowly drop as they are used. They can supply huge amounts of power for a short time, again still holding their voltage. There aren't any other non-rechargeable batteries that can do that. Yes you can get in to NiMH or Li-Ion or even NiCd but again you double the size and weight for the same runtime; again for me this just isn't an option.
If I used a set of batteries a day I might consider a dimmer light (same size and weight) with a rechargeable battery, but I will gladly pay for new batteries twice a month or so for the convince I get. I also use Sanyo's that I pay under $4 a set for.
I guess people have to access what they are going to do with the light and how it will really be used. Then find a light to match those needs. I believe for a lot of people lithium lights are not the way to go.
Just my $.02
Brock - http://www.uwgb.edu/nevermab/flash.htm
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Before I stopped using my lithium powered lights, I could never buy the batteries cheaper than $3.00 per battery (times) two cells. I would use it at least 1 hour daily.
That is how I came to the $36.00 per week, $144.00 per month, $1872.00 per year estimates.
I refuse to carry a light that will not be used daily.
I have not come across any of these bulk deals for lithiums. What are the deals? What are the links? How much $$ per cell? I need to locate and verify. Till I see it, I don't believe it.
I made a choice that if I could not get the lithiums under a specific cost per unit, I would not use the lights that required this terrific battery expense.
I can slide a Streamlight Stinger or a 4AA Streamlight Pro Polymer "into my front or back pockets". Not to mention all the belt "holster" options for the Stinger.
I am one of the people that likes focusable beams. I hate tight narrow beams that are fixed.
<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by NiMH on 01-19-2001 at 07:56 PM</font>
That is how I came to the $36.00 per week, $144.00 per month, $1872.00 per year estimates.
I refuse to carry a light that will not be used daily.
I have not come across any of these bulk deals for lithiums. What are the deals? What are the links? How much $$ per cell? I need to locate and verify. Till I see it, I don't believe it.
I made a choice that if I could not get the lithiums under a specific cost per unit, I would not use the lights that required this terrific battery expense.
I can slide a Streamlight Stinger or a 4AA Streamlight Pro Polymer "into my front or back pockets". Not to mention all the belt "holster" options for the Stinger.
I am one of the people that likes focusable beams. I hate tight narrow beams that are fixed.
<FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by NiMH on 01-19-2001 at 07:56 PM</font>
dano
Flashlight Enthusiast
Last year, I got a case of 100 lithium 123's for a hundred bucks, or a dollar per cell...from Botach (BE CAREFUL, though has these guys have a shaky record)...
--dan
--dan
Gunslinger1LA
Newly Enlightened
I purchased energizer 123`s from Botach last week for $3.00 per 2pk. At $1.50 per cell I got 3 dozen. Buy when they are on sale, save big bucks. Regards, William
hmmwv
Newly Enlightened
And -- www.cheapbatteries.com has sanyo DL123s for 1.65 ea in quantity. A friend of mine at work picked up a flat of 100 DL123s for $10 at a local surplus store - about 5 years old, but hey - they still have 5 years left! - needless to say he doesn't care for rechargables.
Size15's
Flashaholic
I've had a batch of RAF/Army "branded" Duracells which were sold off £1 each ($1.45-ish) at a trade fair. I got a RAF mate to get me 50 of them as they were only 4 years old.
These were not your usually "copper-top" Duracells so the use of army supplies can be tightly contained... This guy had a barrel full (seemed like thousands apparently) that had been rotated out of service (from whatever they were used for was long-term storage/backup)
I wish I still had them, but I used them all in Spain as I was on my 12PM "high" cos it was very dark at night, and I used 3 sets to light up mineralisation for photographing in an old mine (joys of being a Geology Undergraduate [other than alcohol]!)
I've told my mate to look out for some more as he still has contacts, and buy as many as he can afford next time!
These were not your usually "copper-top" Duracells so the use of army supplies can be tightly contained... This guy had a barrel full (seemed like thousands apparently) that had been rotated out of service (from whatever they were used for was long-term storage/backup)
I wish I still had them, but I used them all in Spain as I was on my 12PM "high" cos it was very dark at night, and I used 3 sets to light up mineralisation for photographing in an old mine (joys of being a Geology Undergraduate [other than alcohol]!)
I've told my mate to look out for some more as he still has contacts, and buy as many as he can afford next time!
hmmwv
Newly Enlightened
Had to use the 12Z last night - someone came through the locked gate in my back yard - hit them with the 12Z beam and then let loose the GSD SCH III - I honestly think the "suspect" has a career in track and field now.
It's amazing how the 12Z blinds the suspect, while giving the dog a clear view of the target at the same time.
It's amazing how the 12Z blinds the suspect, while giving the dog a clear view of the target at the same time.
