Global Warming...the true facts ?

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Sub_Umbra

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

Since the evil oil companies support of research has been brought up on this thread it would probably be appropriate to make at least a few notes on some who benefit from global warming fear mongering:
  • Socialists. The ideologues will love it! They do love it! Global warming is a real boon for anyone who wants government to control ever greater portions of the economy and the private lives of citizens. Regulate this -- regulate that -- make sure that the government has the final say in all matters personal and commercial. IMO the Kyoto Accords were very attractive to European nations because they are farther down the road towards total socialism than the States are and Kyoto was a way to get back some of their competitive edge (economically) and level the playing field with the States. That way, they don't have to become less socialistic if they may just make the States more socialist and thus more costly to do business with. Nothing against Europe here -- we're both on the same road.

    If you don't believe this just look at the cost of consumer goods in Europe. Look at the importation schemes for CR123s and other products that CPFers are always trying to cobble together here on CPF in an attempt to dodge the VAT. References to how much more expensive things are in Europe are all around us on CPF.

    Further indication that Kyoto was meant to be just an economic hobble to the States is shown by Kyoto's refusal to give credits to the States for Nuke power. If Kyoto is really about reducing 'Greenhouse Gasses' that does not make sense.

    Yes, by all means, let's follow the money.

  • Bureaucrats. You certainly don't have to be a Socialist to benefit from Global Warming. Any bureaucrat, inside or outside of government has a very good chance of expanding his department (with an expanded budget as well) almost as a matter of course with the inaction of a confusing myriad of new regulations that must be complied with in the struggle to save the earth from mankind. Government bureaucracies will have to expand so they will have enough people writing and enforcing all of those new business policies to save the world. Oh boy, more taxes to pay for the regulators! It should be mentioned that few of these regulators will have any experience in business -- and how this all affects business will not be very high up on their list of concerns.

    Of course, outside of government many, many bureaucracies in the private sector will bloat with the unproductive, also. Virtually every Bureaucrat's power base will grow (their salaries will reflect this) as business hires armies of lawyers, and advisers in an attempt to make their transition into compliance with the new regulations less expensive for them. Many new startups and business just getting by will fail. All of this will result in higher cost for all goods, not just consumer goods.

    Yes I think this idea of following the money is a very good one. I wish the press would.

  • Thieves, thugs and corrupt politicians. Global warming will seem Heaven sent to thieves and corrupt politicians -- although admittedly they may just look nearly identical to Socialists. Global Warming regulation will present countless opportunities for corrupt politicians to milk scams with dishonest businessmen to circumvent the new rules. Every contract will be a potential cash cow with payoffs all around -- except to the consumer who will pay for this whole, never ending ride.

    Follow the money.

  • The Press. Global Warming has been reported in a very dramatic way for two reasons: Drama sells papers and it's much cheaper to just pass the hype they've been fed downstream than it is to write the real story.

    Yes, the press has a vested interest in Global Warming and they have made a great deal of money on that subject. It also gives them an almost never ending chance to take political potshots at those they dis-approve of. It's a win-win for the press.

    Follow the money.
The examples noted above absolutely dwarf the piddling amounts spent by all of the opponents of Global Warming combined in an attempt to just open the subject to discussion. It is totally misleading to ignore all of the theft and corruption that will follow the implementation of these policies as though they do not exist. It is absurd to grouse about the minuscule amount that Big Oil has spent to get their side out when one considers what city, state and federal governments and the press and learning institutions have been throwing at this for decades now for policies that will clearly build their political machines, line their wallets and expand their power bases.

It wasn't that long ago that Clinton/Gore shook down Big Airlines for huge campaign contributions with just the threat of regulations that would make doing business more expensive for them. The opportunities for corruption in Global Warming regulation make Clinton/Gore look like shakedown amateurs.

The very fact that the GW Left refuses to admit how much they will benefit financially from all of this shows that they are either trying to hide it or they are so clueless that they don't see it coming and have no understanding of human nature. At least they finally stopped trying to claim that 10% of the rain forests were disappearing every year.

I know that this post won't change anyone's mind. The totally one sided, holier-than-thou "follow the money" claims made about the oil companies gave me a chance to at least question the pure motives of all of those who would try to save the world from the rest of us and seem to be in such a hurry to say that the science is settled on this matter.

Normally, I avoid religious threads like the plague.
 
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GJW

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

This thread is not going in the direction I would have imagined.

:)
I like that.....

Carry on.
 

270winchester

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

a very simple example.

In the Santa Cruz mountains, in Ben Lomnd, Boulder Creek, as well as in Niscene Marks stae park, at around 2500-ft, there are ton of sand(like the beach), shark teeth fossil, and assorted reminants of a prehistoric water-front.

the exact date of those sites are not agree upon since we also have to account for seismic and geological activities that *could* push those sites up. But as far as thosedead sharks are concerned we are still in an ice age!!!!
 

greenLED

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

Since this is not about science anymore, let me throw in a little devil's advocate bit in here before I go hide under my rock again:

*IF* humans had, indeed, absolutely no role in influencing the climate (which is not the case), we are left with natural variations as the remaining explanation for climate controls. Seeing how "the sun controls all aspects of climate", and it's clear climate changes through Earth's history (under Sun's influence), what are humans going to do to survive this latest shift in climate? Maybe that was a moot point million years ago, but back when there were no humans concerned with their species survival! We are the most prevalent and influential species on this planet, are we going to sit back and watch humanity suffer the effects of climate change or are we, as a species, going to do our best to adapt and mitigate to the impending change?

I tell ya, the safest place is under my rock... :nana:
 

Quickbeam

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

We'll go extinct, just like the dinosaurs, and millions of species before us.... The Earth has been through this before, and perhaps we shall not be part of the equation after this. Who says we *have* to survive as a species anyway? I think it would be rather egocentric to insist we are "so much better" than every other species on the planet that we must survive. Reminds me of the reasoning behind the now defunct idea that the earth was the center of the solar system (and the rest of the universe).

:aaa:

Got room under that rock for another? :)
 
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hank

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

A good foundation in the basic science is available here:
http://www.aip.org/history/climate

It will take a few weeks to read it. I don't know anything as good, clear, and with sources always given so you can look up anything you want to check.

Never rely on unattributed claims without checking sources.

I'm willing to talk about the science with anyone who's willing to give their sources for what they believe and say why they believe their sources.

Watch out especially for those who will provide fake "facts" -- this was far more common before Google came along.

Now, when you see a tasty bit of text attributed to someone, whether on "your side" or against "your side" -- put it in quotes, paste it into Google's search box, and read a bit if it shows up.

There are a lot of claims made about climate and CO2 --- check them. If you liked high school science or have college level classes, paste the keywords also into Google Scholar, which is going to find you denser and more difficult sources but filters out a whole lot of the pure opinion without facts behind it.

It is truly amazing how much of what we believed in the past century was bogus, written by PR people, often by PR people pretending to be on the _other_ side of issues, to embarass those who believed them.

Here, for example, from a cautionary site listing fake quotes about gun control:

"... no matter how loathsome our enemies become, that is still no excuse for falsely attributing quotes to them. In fact, citing a proven false quote only discredits the rest of the message, even if the person may only be unintentionally and unknowingly repeating the made-up quote. This can be very damaging .... Please do the pro-gun cause a favor – If you locate any websites innocently citing any of the following quotes, please forward the URL of this page to that page's webmaster...."
http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/general/BogusAntiGunQuotes.htm

"Just because you're on their side doesn't mean they're on your side." (Teresa Nielsen Hayden)
 

paxxus

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

Quickbeam said:
That's what a lot of people would have everyone else believe - the Sun is just too simple of a solution. Humans must be demonized every chance possible... [Mike Myers voice on] We're eeee-villl, like the fru-its of the Dev-veillll.
[Mike Myers voice off]

But there is good evidence that it really is the Sun causing this climate shift right now, and little else...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,220341,00.html

popcorn.gif
I did hear about this danish research before. This caught my eye:

foxnews said:
Low-level clouds cover more than a quarter of the Earth's surface and exert a strong cooling effect. Observational data indicate that low-cloud cover can vary as much as 2 percent in 5 years which, in turn, varies the heating at the Earth's surface by as much as 1.2 watts per square meter during that same period.

"That figure can be compared with about 1.4 watts per square meter estimated by the [United Nations'] Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change for the greenhouse effect of all the increase in carbon dioxide in the air since the Industrial Revolution," says Svensmark.

That is, cloud cover changes over a 5-year period can have 85 percent of the temperature effect on the Earth that has been claimed to have been caused by nearly 200 years of manmade carbon dioxide emissions.
I dont know wether this Danish National Space Centre is totally corrupt or in the pockets of oil companies, but if this is even remotely true my mind about this whole matter is made up.
 

Quickbeam

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

hank said:
A good foundation in the basic science is available here:
http://www.aip.org/history/climate

It will take a few weeks to read it. I don't know anything as good, clear, and with sources always given so you can look up anything you want to check.

An immediate concern with that site's information is found in the title of the page:

"A hypertext history of how scientists came to (partly) understand what people are doing to cause climate change."

The compiler of that information has already jumped to the conclusion that people cause climate change, which would make me concerned that the information they are providing is strongly biased in that direction, or they are providing information that supports their conclusion, potentially excluding other information. Even scientists have biases and those biases work their ways into their papers and research despite their best efforts to prevent it.


Now for some opposing views to the "humans cause global warming" hypothesis...

http://www.junkscience.com/

I really need to find that rock........
 
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Greta

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

Gunner12 said:
Whatever the reason for global warming is, us humans and our food supply can only live in a certain range of temperature. If it gets too hot or cold, we will die off. So even if it isn't caused by us, we should still stop global warming unless people are willing to let the human race die.

That's some pretty serious "doom and gloom" there Gunner.. :eek: And you're correct regarding "... us humans and our food supply can only live in a certain range of temperature." However, it's a pretty wide range. For instance, I live where it is typically between 110°F-125°F for 4-6 months out of the year with an average annual rainfall of 2.5". (There are no typos in the previous statement) And you say that "Whatever the reason.... we should still stop global warming...". Well... if it really *IS* something like the sun that is causing it, how do you propose that *WE* stop it? Again, I feel it's arrogant for us to assume we have that much influence one way or another.


On a side note... I've been hearing alot lately that the terminology is changing. Some are no longer referring to current phenom's as "global warming" and instead are referring to them as "climate changes". Is that significant? Perhaps... at least it makes you go "hmmmm...." :thinking: ... I'd buy into climate changes... there is at least cyclic tangible data to back that up.
 
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Datasaurusrex

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

quote: "I live where it is typically between 110°F-125°F for 4-6 months out of the year with an average annual rainfall of 2.5"."

Where is your food grown? Fruits? Vegtables? Meat?

Yes people can live in a desert, but what's the carrying capacity? (bear in mind the middle east's carrying capacity is bolstered by oil money)

There was an excellent documentary about marketing, had an interview with the guy who first started using the term "climate change" (or rather, the guy who invented the term and told others to start using it). Ingenious really.
 

Greta

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

Datasaurusrex said:
Where is your food grown? Fruits? Vegtables? Meat?

Good point... and I apologize if I implied that we were self-sufficient here. Obviously, we are not. However, neither are those who live in the opposite extremes of temps below 0°F or single digits. My point was simply that the range for what "... us humans and our food supply can only live in a certain range of temperature." is quite wide and the theory that we're all gonna die is just a bit on the ridiculous side... don't you think?
 

greenLED

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

Quickbeam, come on over! There's plenty of room under my rock. I just ask you please bring your collection of lights, that way it won't be too dark down here. :laughing:

Sasha, on the issue of human influences over our planet, the following is considered one of the "classic" publications in that regard. It is a little dated now but, if anything, the magnitude of human influence has become stronger since the article was written:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/277/5325/494

Edit: Yup, people can't readily access the full text of that article. PM or e-mail me your e-mail address if you're interested in the .pdf.

The citation: Vitousek, P.M. et al. 1997. Human Domination of Earth's Ecosystems. Science. 277(5325): 494 - 499.
If I may quote a small piece of the introduction:
This article provides an overview of human effects on Earth's ecosystems. It is not intended as a litany of environmental disasters, though some disastrous situations are described; nor is it intended either to downplay or to celebrate environmental successes, of which there have been many. Rather, we explore how large humanity looms as a presence on the globe--how, even on the grandest scale, most aspects of the structure and functioning of Earth's ecosystems cannot be understood without accounting for the strong, often dominant influence of humanity.

And for those of you checking credentials, Peter Vitousek is an outstanding scientist.
 
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McGizmo

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

I am not a scientist and I don't know or understand the existing science or how well it gives a "true" picture of whatever changes are in store for the planet or to what extent these changes can be attributed to man. I do know that man has cause and effect on changes in our environment and on the planet because I can see their manifestation everywhere.

Living in Hawaii now has given me an interesting perspective on some of this. Hawaii is a small blip in the middle of the ocean. There are groups and organizations addressing invasive species here in the islands. I am a haole or outsider.

Well the planet itself is a closed system but the notion of invasive species still has relevance, IMHO.

Global Warming, Global cooling or Global temperature constancy (unlikely), to what extent at our hands or doing? If we could control the climate, would we elect to do so. If yes, towards what goal? Would it be a global goal or a national goal? Would it be to maximize profits and yields for the next quarter or towards some distant future "golden age"? Would we elect to expand the temperate zones so we could expand and more comfortably house more humans on planet? One of the few terms I have heard in recent time that just makes sense to me is that of sustainable resources. I don't have confidence that the money and powers that be are motivated or focused on a platform of sustainable resources; cynic or perhaps realist that I am.

I put my faith in nature and its tendency to equalize or put a dampner on populations that can not be sustained. I wish I could put my faith in man. :(

Whether we are here by devine purpose or just a bilogical hapenstance, our continued presence is up to us, to a real extent, whether we elect to have any control or influence on the situation or not. I suspect that there is a finite number of inernal combustion engines that the planet can support and I suspect there is a greater number of same that the planet can not support. Pray the automotive market is sated with a number closer to the first rather than the last. :rolleyes: I single out the automobile but the same holds for water consumption, tract homes, sewer permits, McDonalds and even flashlight makers! :nana:
 

hank

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

>aip

That's the American Institute of Physics; I suggest reading a bit further before deciding the author jumped to a conclusion -- the AIP has been writing about science research and history for quite a while now, and the research described is the basis for, among other things, the first lasers (did you know a carbon dioxide laser uses the same principle --- absorbtion and emission of photons --- that explains the greenhouse effect?

The British TV program appears to have been busted already; they stop their chart that claims solar activity and temperature vary together at 1980.

Here's why -- this is a PDF file, just a couple of pages, and you can look at the subsequent citations and the other research and decide for yourself if this is real science or someone's PR work. Consider the source.

http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Publications/PDF_Papers/DamonLaut2004.pdf

see figure 1(c) and compare it to the one they showed on the tv, and you'll see why the tv show chart cut off the data after 1980.

Don't be fooled into believing any of the political spin, you _can_ check the facts and decide.
 

ikendu

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

Sheesh. What a mish-mash of opinons all over the map.

I'm still for using renewable energy that we produce right here in the good 'ole U S of A.

If nothing else, our addiction to imported foreign oil is a big risk to our economy and our national security. Switching the money we already spend on imported oil and developing our own transportation energy will hugely stimulate our economy and create many jobs that can't be exported to China.

However, the companies that make billions by selling us imported oil will not want us to stop using it. If you want to talk about facts, there is certainly one.

And... as a side benefit, this renewable energy helps us with global warming, should that be important too. You might say that the global warming benefit "rides along for free".
 
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Sub_Umbra

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

ikendu said:
...I'm still for using renewable energy that we produce right here in the good 'ole U S of A.

If nothing else, our addiction to imported foreign oil is a big risk to our economy and our national security. Switching the money we already spend on imported oil and developing our own transportation energy will hugely stimulate our economy and create many jobs that can't be exported to China.

However, the companies that make billions by selling us imported oil will not want us to stop using it. If you want to talk about facts, there is certainly one.

And... as a side benefit, this renewable energy helps us with global warming, should that be important too. You might say that the global warming benefit "rides along for free".
I really think you're right. That "Big Picture" approach would help us out of many messes over the next half century.
 

BUZ

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

powernoodle said:
The liberal media wants a weather crisis. It just can't figure out which one. Either one will do, as long as it forms a basis for attacking capitalism.

New York Times Headlines:

- Sept 18, 1924: "Macmillan Reports Signs of New Ice Age" (thats global cooling )

- March 27, 1933: "America in Longest Warm Spell Since 1776; Temperature Line Record a 25 year Rise" (thats global warming )

- May 21, 1975: "Scientists Ponder Why World's Climate is Changing: A Major Cooling Widely Seen as Inevitable" (thats global cooling )

- Dec 27, 2005: "Past Hot Times Hold Few Reasons to Relax About New Warming" (thats global warming )


Time Magazine:

- Sept 10, 1923: " . . . possible advent of a new ice age . . . ." (thats global cooling )

- Jan 2, 1939: " . . . weather men have no doubt . . . that the world is growing warmer . . . ." (thats global warming )

- June 24, 1974: " . . . harbinger of another ice age . . . ." (thats global cooling )

- April 9, 2001: "cientists no longer doubt that global warming is happening, and almost nobody questions the fact that humans are at least partly responsible." (thats global warming )

For some fun reading, here is a PDF file showing a goofy April 28, 1975 Newsweek article warning of the impending global cooling crisis and possibility of mass starvation. It has pretty graphs, lots of numbers, and references to twisters and hurricanes. Just like those relied on by the promoters of the current weather scam.

So, the liberal media creates a series of demonstrably false crises which are abandoned when the weather doesn't cooperate. One may be assured that they'll be back to their dire warnings of global cooling sometime in the range of 2030. Anything to get my SUV away from me.

cheers



Ahh the New York Slimes gotta love em'! Good post!


http://www.magic-city-news.com/Gues...st_Another_Liberal_Orthodox_printer7441.shtml
 
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BB

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

Here is the 1 hour 15 minute program from Channel 4 (UK) called The Great Global Warming Swindle (Google Video--don't know how long it will stay up) -- As I have not yet watch the show, I am guessing that it is written as a counter to the An Inconvenient Truth by Mr. Gore.

View at your own risk (high speed network probably required)....

-Bill
 

BB

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Re: Global Warming...the true facts.

And now the corn shortages/price increases are going to hit our food prices just like they did in Mexico a few months ago:

Demand for ethanol driving up meat prices (March 9th, 2007):


WASHINGTON (AP) — Strong demand for corn to use in ethanol plants is driving up the cost of livestock and will raise prices for beef, pork and chicken, the Agriculture Department said Friday. Meat and poultry production will fall as producers face higher feed costs, the department said in its monthly crop report. Ethanol fuel, which is blended with gasoline, is consuming 20% of last year's corn crop and is expected to gobble up more than 25% of this year's crop.

The price of corn, the main feed for livestock, has driven the cost of feeding chickens up 40%, according to the National Chicken Council. The council says that chicken, the most popular meat with consumers, will soon cost more at the grocery store. The industry worries the competition from ethanol could cause a shortage of corn.

The average price of corn is more than $4.20 a bushel, according to the futures prices on the Chicago Board of Trade. In October, it traded at less than $3 a bushel...


As from another thread--the Law of Unintended Consequences will get you every time...

-Bill
 
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