Greatest OTF lummens for 1x18650

[joshconsulting]

I've been having fun researching lately, and I'm now impatiently waiting for my HK airmailed AWs and L2p body to arrive - and, of course, going over various possible builds for fun lovecpf

So I'm curious - what build, custom or manufacture, could push the greatest lummens in a 1x18650 form factor over a period of, say, 60 seconds with a hand heatsinking. Runtime, build quality, beam type, levels etc. aside. For a total of under $150.

Right now, I think the SST-50 I bought is the best option. Heat is a killer in the smaller 18650 hosts; the P7 or MC-E could *possibly* push higher lummens at the same heat level, but they have a much worse beam and have lower output at the same amperage. Based on my calculations, I'm expecting around 550 initial OTF lummens from my Nailbender GJ bin SST-50 dropin, with some sag possible due to heat or battery issues. Anyone have ideas for a build that could reach higher? I've seen triple P7s, but I can only imagine that within a minute the output would drop to virtually nil or the leds would be destroyed, a P60 cannot dissipate heat that effectively.

 

[jhc37013]

Ask over in the Custom & Modified threads you may get more info.

 

[berry580]

lights with high max (peak) OTF lumens tends to drop out of regulation quickly because its probably overdriven. That then questions the usefulness of its high max OTF lumens: how beneficial it is really?

 

[John_Galt]

Take a look at Moddoo's triple XP-E (and subsequently, triple [or QUAD!!!] XP-G). With IMR cells, they should be able to push over 1200 OTF lumens.

 

[T0RN4D0]

Hehe, i think that with max lumens, the only thing that it comes down to is how much current your battery can supply. Using multiple emitters for better efficiency, but 1x18650 doesnt give you much juice...

Would be fun to make a multiple Mc-E or just SST light powered by a serious li-po pack. You could literraly weld with those things. A 22V, 4400 mah, 45C discharge would make for a nice series SST power supply.

But it wouldn't be usefull due to the heat. At least not more than a few seconds.

 

[kimck99]

Hi,

I was wondering the same thing as I now have three flashlights that run on 18650. However, in comparing the lights, the 'relative' OTF lumen may need to be put in perspective. What I mean is that some lights have a tighter hotspot and others will be more floody. For example, in comparing my lights: Fenix TK11 R2, Quark R2 (with 18650 body), and Solarforce L2P with Nailbender SST-50.

• In the order of larger spill to narrow, they are: SST-50, Quark, & TK11
• Conversely, the hotspot will be in reverse order from tighter to wider
• Throw - due to the smaller hotspot, the TK11 R2 thrower further, then the Quark and finally the SST-50
• Brightness - this is an interesting comparison as I believe the beam characteristic may have a perceptive impact to the eye. The TK11 seems brighter as it has a smaller hotspot, however, the SST-50 is much more floody and can cover a wider field of view. But given the wider coverage of the SST-50, it does not seem as bright.

My initial thought before I received the SST-50 was that it will be much 'brighter' than the TK11 and Quark given the lumen spec. However, in reality the TK11 and Quark appears brighter from a greater distance due to the smaller hotspot. For a moment, I was disappointed with the SST-50. However, the beam/spill pattern of Nailbender's SST-50 is quite lovely…. It has a great spread with absolutely no rings. It really lights up the back yard in comparison.

So, I think the question of greater OTF may be relative based on reflector size, type of reflector (Orange Peel or Smooth), driver used, etc. I would venture to say that technically, the SST-50 has a higher lumen rating that the TK11 or the Quark's R2 but on my lights, it doesn't seem brighter at a greater distance.

Having said that, before I received my SST-50 drop-in, I was considering selling my TK11 R2. However, after comparing, I will keep it as it is quite the thrower. The Quark R2 is an odd one now as it sits between the TK11 and the SST-50 drop-in. I like the SST-50 as it really does a great job of covering the yard.

As a side note, I purchased a MCE drop in from ebay just to try it out. What a disappointment. The light has 2 very noticeable dark rings and it drives me nuts. I think I will stick to Nailbender and/or others who have had better luck with know sellers on CPF.

So, I am now looking for a D26/P60 drop in (to be used with 1x18650) that will really throw. I thought about the SST-90 but concerned with the heat. Any suggestions to a drop that will throw more than the SST-50? (Yes, I will pose the question to Nailbender.)

Hope this helps

 

[rmteo]

Lumens (output) and brightness (intensity) are not the same thing. A 100 lumen light can be brighter than a 200 lumen one.

 

[joshconsulting]

I understand the difference between throw and spill - at this point, I'm looking for the greatest lunmens, which generally means flood. The sst-90 can be overdriven farther then the 59, but at the same wattage it is roughly equivilant in output and is much floodier then the 50, so it would be bad for what you want to do.

Someone around these forums put an aspheric lens in front of a Nailbender P60 and got some fairly impressive throw. I ordered the lens they used from KD, so when it gets here I'll try it. It would be nice to have both the brightest flood and the farthest throwing in one light with a simple $3 lens change.

 

[kimck99]

Lumens (output) and brightness (intensity) are not the same thing. A 100 lumen light can be brighter than a 200 lumen one.

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying. Still learning from the folks on this forum.

 

[kimck99]

I understand the difference between throw and spill - at this point, I'm looking for the greatest lunmens, which generally means flood. The sst-90 can be overdriven farther then the 59, but at the same wattage it is roughly equivilant in output and is much floodier then the 50, so it would be bad for what you want to do.

Someone around these forums put an aspheric lens in front of a Nailbender P60 and got some fairly impressive throw. I ordered the lens they used from KD, so when it gets here I'll try it. It would be nice to have both the brightest flood and the farthest throwing in one light with a simple $3 lens change.

I am interested to find out what you discover. I am tempted to pick up a R2 or R4 drop-in (fairly inexpensive) with an aspheric lens - I've seen beamshots with the square hotspot and if for nothing else, just to have one .

 

[joshconsulting]

I am interested to find out what you discover. I am tempted to pick up a R2 or R4 drop-in (fairly inexpensive) with an aspheric lens - I've seen beamshots with the square hotspot and if for nothing else, just to have one .

I was wrong, the post I was referring to was with a SST-90 - but a SST-50 should have even better throw with an aspheric. Here's the post with beamshots: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3205185&postcount=215

as you can see from above the SST-90 without has a very weak hotspot and the spill is almost not noticeable with the daylight in the room, with the lens however it has a huge hot spot i will take some shot once its dark from my balcony to the ground ( approximately 120feet) so far thou it seems to be just as bright as the m60 just a lot bigger. it'll probably have less throw but a huge increase vs no aspherical lens

Aspherical + SST-50 should have a LONG throw with a big (for aspheric) hotspot.

It can be purchased off of KD at http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=1793

More beamshots at http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3205308&postcount=223

 

[rmteo]

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying. Still learning from the folks on this forum.

You're welcome. Don't get hung up on the lumens thing. A listing of the output (in lumens) of flashlights is like a listing of the output (in horsepower) of motor vehicles. It does not give you any indication of how the vehicle performs. For example, take 2 motor vehicles with same output - say 100hp.

1. Which one will accelerate quicker?
2. Which one has a higher towing capacity?

The is no way to know unless more info is available beyond just its output (in horsepower - or in the case flashlights, in lumens). If one vehicle is a motorcycle, then in all likelihood, it will accelerate quicker. If the other is a truck, then it will likely have a higher towing capacity. So even though they both have the same output, they can perform very differently depending on what they are designed to do.

 

[kimck99]

This got me thinking a bit. Given that lumen rating can be misleading, seems to me that what's missing is a way to measure/rate the intensity and brightness for a flashlight. I have read many reviews from this site and others and have made my decision based on lumens.

So, is there (or has been) an effort to rate a given light for intensity and brightness? It sure would be helpful if such measurements were available. I'm sure this has been discussed before I join the forum so perhaps it's there isn't a simple solution.

Thanks

You're welcome. Don't get hung up on the lumens thing. A listing of the output (in lumens) of flashlights is like a listing of the output (in horsepower) of motor vehicles. It does not give you any indication of how the vehicle performs. For example, take 2 motor vehicles with same output - say 100hp.

1. Which one will accelerate quicker?
2. Which one has a higher towing capacity?

The is no way to know unless more info is available beyond just its output (in horsepower - or in the case flashlights, in lumens). If one vehicle is a motorcycle, then in all likelihood, it will accelerate quicker. If the other is a truck, then it will likely have a higher towing capacity. So even though they both have the same output, they can perform very differently depending on what they are designed to do.

 

[joshconsulting]

This got me thinking a bit. Given that lumen rating can be misleading, seems to me that what's missing is a way to measure/rate the intensity and brightness for a flashlight. I have read many reviews from this site and others and have made my decision based on lumens.

So, is there (or has been) an effort to rate a given light for intensity and brightness? It sure would be helpful if such measurements were available. I'm sure this has been discussed before I join the forum so perhaps it's there isn't a simple solution.

Thanks

Lux = brightest of the most intense spot in the center of the beam. Let's you know how floody or throwy the light is.
Lummens = overall brightness emitted by the light. Let's you know roughly how well the light will illuminate an area.
Beamshots cover the rest, showing the size and makeup of the hotspot and spill.

 

[rmteo]

This got me thinking a bit. Given that lumen rating can be misleading, seems to me that what's missing is a way to measure/rate the intensity and brightness for a flashlight. I have read many reviews from this site and others and have made my decision based on lumens.

So, is there (or has been) an effort to rate a given light for intensity and brightness? It sure would be helpful if such measurements were available. I'm sure this has been discussed before I join the forum so perhaps it's there isn't a simple solution.

Thanks

AFAIK, no. Even beamshots do not give the whole picture is as there are too many variables involved with no quantifiable data to allow comparison of different flashlights. There are ways to do it, but I have not seen it done yet.

Brightness and luminous flux (output, in lumens) are not the same thing. Lumens alone is NO indication of brightness. Here is a brief description to put things in perspective.


Quantifying Light Output

Often the first problem that someone new to lighting design has is defining the requirement in specific terms that can be used to calculate how much light is required.

The metric unit of measurement for light seen by the human eye is called the lumen. The lumen is used to quantify the total amount of light radiated by a visible light source, in this case the LED. However, what is important is how bright the light will be and this depends on what area the light is concentrated into.

To specify what illumination level (brightness) is needed on a surface, you need to calculate how much light is needed per square meter of surface. This unit of measurement is called Lux and is the total amount of light in lumens divided by the area being illuminated. Lux can be measured with a light meter.

If you need to specify brightness of a light that is viewed at a significant distance, the unit of measurement to use is the candela. Candela is defined as the amount of light in lumens being radiated into each steradian of solid angle. (To caculate solid angle, imagine putting the light at the center of a sphere with a radius of 1 meter. The amount of surface area in meters squared of the sphere that the light passes through is equivalent to the solid angle in steradians).

This may getting too OT. You may want to start another thread.

 

[joshconsulting]

OTF lummens ARE an accurate measure of brightness. They are a measure of the total amount of light coming from the flashlight. The disadvantage is that you have to know what your looking for; a floody light with higher lummens can appear dimmer then a throwy light with lower lummens standing a long ways away. Lux, as it is generally used around here, represents brightness at the brightest spot of the beam, determining how far away you can see the light from (AKA throw). Again, it isn't perfect, but it's close. Highly technical measurements arn't like to help more; I personally think that lummens, lux, and beamshots at different exposure levels give a pretty complete picture of overall light output.

 

[Paul_in_Maryland]

Maybe the MG PLI. And its beam tint is warm!

 

[joshconsulting]

Maybe the MG PLI. And its beam tint is warm!

Yes, but I'm not sure if a MC-E @ 2.5A can beat a SST-50 @ 2.5A. Granted, the SST-50 is designed for a higher power light; but the MC-E has the quad reflector disadvantage. The specs sheet for the MC-E doesn't have much info for comparison. Someone needs to compare the two ..

 

[kimck99]

rmteo and johnconsulting (jc), thanks for the additional information.

jc - apologies for inadvertent hijacking of your thread. Now back to the regular programming.

 

[Walterk]

The sst-90 can be overdriven farther then the 59, but at the same wattage it is roughly equivilant in output and is much floodier then the 50, so it would be bad for what you want to do.

From another thread:

I like the idea of a CPU heatsink. Even a small stock cooler would be massive overkill. The heat dissipation is an order of magnitude above what your hand would normally provide for a flashlight body. Plus, then you could overdrive the LED massively. Now I'm combining my flashlight hobby with my computer job.

So, I have a SST90, copper bar and heatpipes to assemble.
You may have done some testing between then and now, how many Amps do you think I can drive this led?
Do you have experience with the SST50 or the SST90 (as they might have similar behaviour)?