Have LED's really caught up with incans?

[LuxLuthor]

Perhaps, but a case can also be made for a larger "cosmic" consciousness that we just tap into without having direct past experience to explain a perception or awareness. You have to be able to explain that small verified percentage of child prodigies, ESP-paranormal perceptions, etc. where someone knows something that is not possible for them to have known.

How's that for the ultimate in off-topic hijacking?

 

[Kiessling]

I was more aiming at the implications of said learning experiences and consciousness-traits. Like why we might like incan light (--> warmth, safety, company) or whatnot else.
😛

bk

 

[LuxLuthor]

I was more aiming at the implications of said learning experiences and consciousness-traits. Like why we might like incan light (--> warmth, safety, company) or whatnot else.
😛

bk

So you ruled out wanting an ultra-bright incan because you were buried alive in a past life? 😱 :candle: 😱oo: :devil:

 

[Kiessling]

Nope. I ruled it out because it needs rechargeable batteries :nana:

 

[Blindasabat]

I would like to echo an earlier post which questioned the move to such warm-white LEDs such as the 5A tinted Crees. In my limited experience with SX0, SW0, and the SR (the so-called "high CRI SSC") tint bin Seoul P4s, I find myself wanting something right in the middle...say, SUN bin. Likewise for the Cree XR-E, I find myself wondering what a 3A bin looks like.

See this thread - 1st post - for a comparison picture of Cree WC to 3A (and incan). I bought one of those lights (see below).
SSC SUN and SUM seem to overlap the Cree neutral 3A, 3B, 3C, 3D and 4A & 4B so they do look very interesting, though they have 'cool' tint (not high CRI) phosphor, and we just can't find any of those LEDs other than a Seoul tint comparison board someone had late 2007. Photonfanatic has been trying to source some for a group buy for over a month. I had a "want to buy" thread for them many months ago based on that tint board. They are worth a try.
I just got a Cree 3A light Friday and I like it a lot compared to even very white cool tints. I would prefer a 3B, 3C, 4B,or 4C (above the Planckian Black Body Line rather than below it) as the more yellow & green tints always seem to work better outdoors for me rather than the red-pink below the PBB line (also see below).

Compared to a generously overdriven hotwire ...I find the "high CRI" SSC to be a little bit too warm. To me, the two problems with this bin of the SSC are the 1) tint variation from hotspot to corona, and 2) color temp being at least 500k too low. If SSC could fix these two problems (and match the efficiency of the cool white bin), we'd have a real winner on our hands that would make me seriously consider abandoning my incandescent flashlights.

Though I agree with your position on neutral LEDs, I don't think the arguments that the color temp are "too low" or the tint is "too warm" are reasons to say they are better or worse than any other as far as CRI or differently*, depth perception (*meaning depth perception is possibly/probably not directly related to CRI) for highly demanding outdoor activities like hiking over rough terrain or fast trail (mountain bike) riding that I need them for. That is the same argument as those who say "warmer must be better" - just in the opposite direction. What will work best in those applications will work best even if it appears too warm or too cool to an individual's taste. While I think neutral tints will work best for those (and look better to me individually), I could be wrong as I have not had the opportunity to try any real high CRI or Warm White LEDs yet, just my Cree 3A.

You've just reminded me of something. I've found the white LumiLED colour bin nicknamed "puke green" to be the best LED I own for colour rendition. Maybe it's just my eyes. Strange but true.

Not so strange. Green was discussed a couple of years ago. I had two Nuwai, one with V1 tint (very warm), and another with a green tinted X1 that both worked well getting rid of the pale cast of cooler LEDs I had on grass and dirt. That is why many people consider(ed) green to be a warm tint (it is on the north side of the PBBL along with yellow). Others noted that green is a major component of foliage, so expected it to light it up very well compared to blue tints, which agreed with my findings.

 

[copperfox]

See this thread - 1st post - for a comparison picture of Cree WC to 3A (and incan). I bought one of those lights (see below).

I know, I posted in that thread. Unfortunately, the WC and 3A in that beamshot are not driven at the same current, and the backdrop is less than uniform. Anyway, I didn't have the money to buy one. I might just buy the bare emitter from Cutter to see it for myself.

SSC SUN and SUM seem to overlap the Cree neutral 3A, 3B, 3C, 3D and 4A & 4B so they do look very interesting, though they have 'cool' tint (not high CRI) phosphor, and we just can't find any of those LEDs other than a Seoul tint comparison board someone had late 2007. Photonfanatic has been trying to source some for a group buy for over a month. I had a "want to buy" thread for them many months ago based on that tint board. They are worth a try.

I know, I posted in that thread. Apparently SSC doesn't have P4s in the SUN bin available yet, they deserves a thwack

I just got a Cree 3A light Friday and I like it a lot compared to even very white cool tints. I would prefer a 3B, 3C, 4B,or 4C (above the Planckian Black Body Line rather than below it) as the more yellow & green tints always seem to work better outdoors for me rather than the red-pink below the PBB line (also see below).

Hmmm. Interesting. I had a Malkoff M60 which was slightly greenish, but I didn't care for it.

Though I agree with your position on neutral LEDs, I don't think the arguments that the color temp are "too low" or the tint is "too warm" are reasons to say they are better or worse than any other as far as CRI or differently*, depth perception (*meaning depth perception is possibly/probably not directly related to CRI) for highly demanding outdoor activities like hiking over rough terrain or fast trail (mountain bike) riding that I need them for. That is the same argument as those who say "warmer must be better" - just in the opposite direction. What will work best in those applications will work best even if it appears too warm or too cool to an individual's taste. While I think neutral tints will work best for those (and look better to me individually), I could be wrong as I have not had the opportunity to try any real high CRI or Warm White LEDs yet, just my Cree 3A.
Not so strange. Green was discussed a couple of years ago. I had two Nuwai, one with V1 tint (very warm), and another with a green tinted X1 that both worked well getting rid of the pale cast of cooler LEDs I had on grass and dirt. That is why many people consider(ed) green to be a warm tint (it is on the north side of the PBBL along with yellow). Others noted that green is a major component of foliage, so expected it to light it up very well compared to blue tints, which agreed with my findings.

You kinda lost me in that paragraph. I know CCT and CRI aren't the same, but they do tend to appear in inversely proportional amounts, in the SSC P4 at least. The warmer (CCT, i.e. 3700K) tint bin has a much higher CRI, while the higher CCT tint bin has a lower CRI. I can't wait for the day when LEDs are available in a (uniformly dispersed) neutral tint with high CRI and excellent efficiency (150+lm/w at 1a).

 

[Icebreak]

With a very deep, wide, smooth reflector and driving an XRE very hard at ~1.25A an LED can compete with the intensity level of a common, yet venerable HotWire in the form of a Mag85 with a beam fattening HOP reflector.

Has this LED really caught up with this incan?

For this dangerous ridge line I'd say no. Watch your step!

Watch your step!

 

[Kiessling]

Well ... let's talk after you incan has used up the batteries and my LED still goes on for hours :nana:

Or after you show a comparison where I see only apples, not oranges.

bernie

 

[yellow]

finally, the tread takes the usual route:

brutally bright, big, heavy, extremely short running superlights,
compared to a small, light, backpacking-perfect, 2 hour 200 lm led-light (even when the single led is overdriven)

understand that picture of comparing apples to oranges? 😉

Why dont You compare a Solitaire to an E01, f.e. (brighter and 5 times runtime)
or a 6P to any single-led (brighter and double runtime) 😉 😉
but hold Your breath, there will soon be better quad-leds out, (than the actual crap) 😉 😉 😉

 

[KiwiMark]

With a very deep, wide, smooth reflector and driving an XRE very hard at ~1.25A an LED can compete with the intensity level of a common, yet venerable HotWire in the form of a Mag85 with a beam fattening HOP reflector.

Has this LED really caught up with this incan?

The answer would have to depend on which factors you compare.

Max output - Incan
Tint - Incan
Size (where smaller is better) - LED
Run time - LED
Heat (where less is better) - LED
Battery requirements - LED
Bulb/LED life - LED

Of the seven things I thought of off the top of my head - LED wins 5 of them, but sometimes the Incan's 2 wins could make it your choice. It would depend on how you weight your priorities for the task required.

Any real flashaholic would own multiple lights and choose the best one for the task required. This would mean that even while holding a ROP or Hotwire Mag I would have an LED (probably more than 1) in my pocket that I could switch to when the Hotwire batteries are sucked dry. I currently have about 10 good LED lights and am planning on building up to five Mag Mod Incans (ROP Hi, ROP Lo, Mag11, Mag85, Mag623).

If we only look at Lumens and ignore all other important characteristics then the 6000 Lumen Incan I am planning on building will win against any LED I have ever heard of - but with ~14.8V & ~10A it will be lucky to run for 20 minutes before the batteries are dead, I will probably stop at 15 minutes to reduce the risk of damaging the batteries. My bulb life will not be high, somewhere around 90 hours before

If the question is "what 1 torch is the best" then the obvious answer is "no 1 torch is ever the best, MANY torches are the best!". The bottom line for what is better between LED & Incan: It depends! Anyone that tries to proclaim a clear winner is WRONG!

 

[Icebreak]

Well ... let's talk after you incan has used up the batteries and my LED still goes on for hours :nana:

Or after you show a comparison where I see only apples, not oranges.

bernie

:mecry:


Using just your LED I'm afeared you'da rundid off the side of yonder mountain and gone kersplatski. I'da found you though. With all that light I can stand in one place and do a lot of search and rescue. I'da hauled you to hospital too. Then I'da brought you a fruit basket basket with apples and oranges and maybe a proper flashlight. :nana: The badass Mag85 runs 1 hour and 10 minutes. Remind me again how long an LED @ 1.25 Amps runs on 2 X CR123. I know you don't do rechargeables.

finally, the tread takes the usual route:

brutally bright, big, heavy, extremely short running superlights,
compared to a small, light, backpacking-perfect, 2 hour 200 lm led-light (even when the single led is overdriven)

Oh my. There is just no pleasing that can be done sometimes. I find an LED, overdriven to 1.29 Amps, that holds its own with the super throwers, Tiablo and A10 and all, comes close to the intensity at the spot as a common HotWire and still the comparison is unfair. Wow. Maybe if I got something from Gerber that would do.

And I gotta say, I really have no difficulty toting a flashlight with me through the woods. I'd be concerned if I did.

I wonder. :thinking: Is it the sheer awesomeness or is it the brutality that is so intimidating?

 

[woodrow]

This thread has made me dust off my hid (after a few months of non use) and be amazed by it again. It puts out more light (for 90 non dimming minutes in a 4+ lb lantern) than all my led lights put together..at a nice 4300k temp. So have leds caught up with hid's or the cool lithium ion halogen spotlights that Magnalight sells....NO!

But, when we get away from spotlights or hid's, I think they have more than surpassed incans. Because in 1 - 2x123a (or 18650)....or 2xAA for that matter... light, I can have over 200 lumens that is not all spot, but also has a bright spill. I also have in the same light, the capability to have less output for 6-12, or 70-200 hours.

My favorite incan lights...the M3 w/HO bulb and gpz p61 combo could put out less light (when I got home late from work and did not want to wake up everyone in the house) but it involved covering the bezel most of the way with my hand (this got WARM very quickly) and I would still have to grab my e2e with the 15 lm bulb for making a midnight snack.

So, for lighting up a field, incans still rule.... but for everyday use and versitility, leds HAVE overtaken incans..by a huge margin. As for being pleasing to the eye, that varies from person to person. I like the new R2 tints more than the cool white of Q5 leds and more than the yellow orange of incans... others would (strongly) disagree

 

[Kiessling]

Hey Ice ... I have undebatable, certain and perfect proof that in 2005, LEDs have killed incan 😛

SF A2, 2xCR123:

McGizmo HD45, 2xCR123:

I have even better proof in older scientific test contacted in my specialized laboratory, meaning my backyard:

Maglight Clone on 2xAA:

MR-X LED on (way more)xAA lithiums:

Anybody dare challenge these studies? :nana:


But I thank you for the virtual rescue and the food. You cna always get me with food 🙂

bernie

 

[LuxLuthor]

The answer would have to depend on which factors you compare.

Max output - Incan
Tint - Incan
Size (where smaller is better) - LED
Run time - LED
Heat (where less is better) - LED
Battery requirements - LED
Bulb/LED life - LED

Of the seven things I thought of off the top of my head - LED wins 5 of them, but sometimes the Incan's 2 wins could make it your choice. It would depend on how you weight your priorities for the task required.

Any real flashaholic would own multiple lights and choose the best one for the task required. This would mean that even while holding a ROP or Hotwire Mag I would have an LED (probably more than 1) in my pocket that I could switch to when the Hotwire batteries are sucked dry. I currently have about 10 good LED lights and am planning on building up to five Mag Mod Incans (ROP Hi, ROP Lo, Mag11, Mag85, Mag623).

If we only look at Lumens and ignore all other important characteristics then the 6000 Lumen Incan I am planning on building will win against any LED I have ever heard of - but with ~14.8V & ~10A it will be lucky to run for 20 minutes before the batteries are dead, I will probably stop at 15 minutes to reduce the risk of damaging the batteries. My bulb life will not be high, somewhere around 90 hours before

If the question is "what 1 torch is the best" then the obvious answer is "no 1 torch is ever the best, MANY torches are the best!". The bottom line for what is better between LED & Incan: It depends! Anyone that tries to proclaim a clear winner is WRONG!

That is the most objective post, and why I have 20+ LED's in addition to many more incans. I would add one more feature to your list:

Adjustable Throw/Beam Shape - Incan

What many of us who appreciate the strengths of incans object to is the repeated (ignorant) assertions that LED's are superior or have caught up to incans--in an absolute, total sense.

They have exceeded incans in certain aspects and applications, but not in others. Same is true with HID/Laser/Fluorescent vs. incan or vs. LED.

Saying that incans are doomed is as ignorant as saying a match or candle is doomed.

 

[Icebreak]

Always wanted a MR - X.

 

[Kiessling]

It is outdated now, unfortunately. Only of historical value. Not that this doesn't count, but as far as lightoutput goes, there's more.

Saying that incans are doomed is as ignorant as saying a match or candle is doomed.

No. It is like saying incan household lightbulbs are doomed. Which they are. Not that this is a pleasant statement as I very much like incan light. But I still think incan days are numbered. Not now. But soon.

bernie

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Also +1 for KiwiMark's post. More of a true flashaholic, with only three months as a CPF member, than some members with years of membership. That attitude is truly what CPF is really about.

Bill

 

[jtr1962]

Saying that incans are doomed is as ignorant as saying a match or candle is doomed.

They're not doomed as in won't exist at all anymore in a few years, but by any reasonable definition they'll be considered obsolete in the not too distant future. Like vinyl records, which also share that label, they'll probably still be made in limited numbers for people like yourself. If there's a demand, someone will obviously fill it. But the days of mass-produced incandescents are coming to an end, probably within a decade, if not a few years earlier. Why? Two reasons are paramount-efficiency and longevity. Neither of these are terribly important for some portable lighting uses where output or throw is the main goal. However, for the other 99% of lighting needs they are, and that's really what drives the markets.

Should be interesting to redo this discussion is another 5 years, and see what, if any, advantages incandescents hold by then. If the answer is zero, then they really will be obsolete.

Icebreak:

Obviously the incan in your pictures kicks the behind of the LED in terms of raw output. However, one reason I personally won't touch incans anymore is their perchant for failure (especially true for incan bike lights which seem to fail at any large pothole). If the lamp instaflashes when you're on that ridge you're toast. Not saying LEDs don't fail, either, just that the odds are far, far lower unless you buy cheap junk. Yeah, I know any flashaholic worth his salt carries more than one light anyway, but field failures can still be a royal PITA. I could imagine a light failing wouldn't be a fun thing if you're hanging off a cliff at the time, maybe with no hands free to change a lamp, or get a spare light.

 

[WadeF]

I think when you compare apples to apples LED's can stomp incans. Here's a good example of a comparison I just did.

I have two P60 hosts, a Dereelight CL1H and a Surefire 6P. Both lights running two 3.7v lithium ion cells. R123's in the CL1H, 2xIMR16340's in the SF 6P. The Surefire 6P is loaded with the just released IMR-9 bulb from lumens factory, which as I understand it, should give the most lumens out of a 2 cell p60 host.

The Dereelight CL1H has the new Dereelight MC-E drop in running at 2.4A (note the LED isn't being pushed to max capacity). The MC-E stomps the IMR-9 in total output. In my light box it was roughly a value of 800lux for the MC-E and 530lux for the IMR-9.

As far as lumens, it's anyones guess, but if we assume the MC-E has about 50% more output, the IMR-9 maybe around 250-300 out the front lumens, the MC-E is probably around 400-450 out the front lumens.

Although some have tested the MC-E in the Dereelight to be around 500 lumens, so if that is the case the IMR-9 maybe closer to 350 out the front lumens.

To add insult to injury for the incan my little single cell Dereelight C2H with a Cree R2 WH wasn't far behind in the light box. 🙂

It incan may win in throw (with the MC-E in the CL1H, but not if I move it into the DBS), I didn't take 1 meter lux readings yet. I'll try and post some beam shots.

 

[LuxLuthor]

No. It is like saying incan household lightbulbs are doomed. Which they are. Not that this is a pleasant statement as I very much like incan light. But I still think incan days are numbered. Not now. But soon.

bernie

I'm fully in agreement that they have their limitations, but I don't buy the word "doomed." That implies outlawed, as happened to cherry bombs, M-80's, and most firecrackers (in all but a few US states). I would not use the word "soon" which implies to most people something in a matter of months to a year.

I also make a clear difference between someone making an ignorant statement vs. being ignorant which I do not mean to imply. :wave:

They're not doomed as in won't exist at all anymore in a few years, but by any reasonable definition they'll be considered obsolete in the not too distant future. Like vinyl records, which also share that label, they'll probably still be made in limited numbers for people like yourself. If there's a demand, someone will obviously fill it. But the days of mass-produced incandescents are coming to an end, probably within a decade, if not a few years earlier. Why? Two reasons are paramount-efficiency and longevity. Neither of these are terribly important for some portable lighting uses where output or throw is the main goal. However, for the other 99% of lighting needs they are, and that's really what drives the markets.

Should be interesting to redo this discussion is another 5 years, and see what, if any, advantages incandescents hold by then. If the answer is zero, then they really will be obsolete.

Perhaps within several decades they will not be "mass produced" for most people, but I don't know what that means. If you mean that they will no longer be the primary source of indoor illumination for the majority of the first world nations, I could agree with that.

For something to be "mass produced" just means they are produced by some mechanized system, vs. an individual hand-blowing glass bulb tubes. I will bet you $100 that in 5 years incan bulbs will still be produced for indoor lighting uses, and available for the public to purchase. Mark this post...and I will even adjust the $100 upwards for inflation in 5 years if you take the bet.

Your vinyl album analogy is a bad one, and also exhibits ignorance of the facts. If they were obsolete, you would not be seeing a dramatic % increase growth.

Perhaps a better example of obsolete technology is Sony's Betamax, 8-Track tapes, or HD-DVD since Sony bought out their patent rights to shove Blu-Ray down everyone's throats.