HDS Systems #23

[Hogokansatsukan]

HOGO! If you could perhaps clarify...realistically, how long should we expect the light to run on max without stepdowns, and would the experience I described be in alignment with practical testing? Tactical 219 rotary purchased in 2015 from dealer, IS, now Illumn...

***to recap:
Cr123a, 38 minutes on max, stepdowns over the course of 1 hour before hitting sub-tactical (<50), then a while longer at around 20 lumens, total runtime around just under 2 hours

16340, 25 minutes on max, stepdowns over 25 minutes until subtactical, then a little while longer around 20 lumens, total runtime under an hour?

This is what you should expect. Some emitters are more efficient than others in the same bin. Since we calibrate to lumen output, this will make runtime vary, however this list is a minimum run time.

 

[dc38]

This is what you should expect. Some emitters are more efficient than others in the same bin. Since we calibrate to lumen output, this will make runtime vary, however this list is a minimum run time.

Got it, looks like my numbers are generally within spec. Has there been any update to the firmware that would have changed the way the stepdowns occur? Perhaps I was overly optimistic with my expectations of the runtime...I understand the choice to calibrate to output vs. calibrating to power draw, but if in the future I do manage to get my hands on another rotary HDS, would you be able and willing to calibrate/flash it to have constant draw per respective rotary level with no stepdowns unless low voltage, i.e. 2.8v, then quickly steps through the levels down to whatever level drives at 50 lumens, then lower until it cuts off at 2.5v?

**added for clarity:
16340 900mAh @4.2v,
Level 23 for N min @0.8A, cell to 2.8V
Stepdown--
Level 22 For 30sec @0.6A,
Stepdown--
Level 20 for 30sec @0.4A,
Stepdown--
"" "" "" "" ""
Then Level X @50 Lumens for x minutes, cell voltage 2.6V,
Stepdown--
Limp mode, until cell cuts at 2.5V

Same logical process for any of the lower modes, except they would last longer on the initial mode until stepping down, where anything arriving at the 2.8V threshold would immediately start stepping down, and 2.8>x>2.6v starts at 50 lumens, and 2.6>x>2.5 starts in limp mode, and 2.5v doesnt activate at all.

For my purposes, the above calibration would be amazing...my brain just works better with known power outputs rather than lumens at unknown power outputs...

Also, I'm translating ideal/practical numbers with real world runtimes of another manufacturer...

16340 ~=3/2V of 2xNiMH serial
16340 @900mAh~= 47% mAh(round to 50% for calculation) of 2nimh
In this other light, 80 lumens for flat 6hrs and change before steep drop and cell failure. Assuming typical HDS is 250 lumens, use 240 lumens for easier calculations, bar inefficiencies for now, that gives 1/3 the runtime, so the 2x NiMH would give 2 hours at 240lm. 2hrs ×3/2 gives 3, then × 0.5 gives 1.5, multiply by 0.85 for losses in circuit, you get 1.275 hours, or roughly 1h15m on max till sudden failure.

If the above ramping is applied, we could have an hour at or near max, then extend that remaining 15m of max into lower, longer running modes for the same total runtime as the existing rating, and the same tactical runtime with more max (or user selected level).

The stepdowns of the 2015 model I had just gave the impression of an inefficient driver...NO slight intended, just feedback delivered 10 years late...

If the user can manually select the level using the rotary ring, there would be no reason to introduce an arbitrary stepdown (besides cell safety) just to extend runtime...

 

[tech25]

Good thing I was at work when I saw the post. My partner managed to get ROSC from me…

Lifepak 15 and HDS. Hefty but quality tools!

 

[russprechtl]

Good thing I was at work when I saw the post. My partner managed to get ROSC from me…

Check that pulse and get a pressure and a 12-lead......we need to hear more about the outputs!

 

[elzilcho]

I ran a test on a mix of clickies and rotaries using level 23 rather than 24, because I wasn't going to fiddle in the menus to figure out which had burst enabled and turn it off. Starting on level 23, which the HDS table shows has a tactical runtime of 1:45 for primaries, and using reasonably fresh (exp 2033) Panasonic CR123 batteries, here are the results:
1:30 - 300 dogfart emitter (3 yrs old) first step down to ~130 lumens, dropped below 50 lumens at 1:53
1:31 - 200 XPG from 2015-2016 first step down to 90 (89.8) lumens, dropped below 50 lumens at 1:50
1:49 - 200 High Noon first step down to 90 lumens, below 50 lumens at 2:02

The real champ was the 519, which didn't encounter its first step down to 90 lumens until 2:09 and then stepped down again to 60 lumens about 15+ minutes later. I don't know how long it would have remained above the 50-lumen threshold because I stopped the test.

 

[dc38]

I ran a test on a mix of clickies and rotaries using level 23 rather than 24, because I wasn't going to fiddle in the menus to figure out which had burst enabled and turn it off. Starting on level 23, which the HDS table shows has a tactical runtime of 1:45 for primaries, and using reasonably fresh (exp 2033) Panasonic CR123 batteries, here are the results:
1:30 - 300 dogfart emitter (3 yrs old) first step down to ~130 lumens, dropped below 50 lumens at 1:53
1:31 - 200 XPG from 2015-2016 first step down to 90 (89.8) lumens, dropped below 50 lumens at 1:50
1:49 - 200 High Noon first step down to 90 lumens, below 50 lumens at 2:02

The real champ was the 519, which didn't encounter its first step down to 90 lumens until 2:09 and then stepped down again to 60 lumens about 15+ minutes later. I don't know how long it would have remained above the 50-lumen threshold because I stopped the test.

Man...either I got a couple lemons, or something I was doing was sucking the life out of the cells. Everyone else is getting much more stable runtimes before stepdowns than I did. Maybe I'll have to give the newer HDS a try...

 

[desert.snake]

I found the cheapest CR123 that can buy here in packs of 4 ($1.25 for pcs), they arrived, so tomorrow I'll pick them up from the post office and do a mini test. I don't need your money, I just became interested myself. I currently have 4 flashlights - NLT rotary, standard clicky 200 lm, both with the latest firmware; second rotary 300 lm, a modified XPL HD 4500K firmware 2.15, and one golden dragon clicky 120 lm with 22 levels, which always drops to level 23 / 85 lm after 10 or 20 seconds, I have no idea what version of firmware it is, I set it to level 21 max, i.e. it is now 85 lm. My memory card in the video recording device is almost full, so there will be no video, but I will time it and watch the lux meter

Malkoff MDC is a very good vampire by the way, it continues to glow a little on a very discharged battery even when other lights stop showing signs of life on this battery. But it has quite a noticeable PWM, some people find it annoying

 

[dc38]

I found the cheapest CR123 that can buy here in packs of 4 ($1.25 for pcs), they arrived, so tomorrow I'll pick them up from the post office and do a mini test. I don't need your money, I just became interested myself. I currently have 4 flashlights - NLT rotary, standard clicky 200 lm, both with the latest firmware; second rotary 300 lm, a modified XPL HD 4500K firmware 2.15, and one golden dragon clicky 120 lm with 22 levels, which always drops to level 23 / 85 lm after 10 or 20 seconds, I have no idea what version of firmware it is, I set it to level 21 max, i.e. it is now 85 lm. My memory card in the video recording device is almost full, so there will be no video, but I will time it and watch the lux meter

Malkoff MDC is a very good vampire by the way, it continues to glow a little on a very discharged battery even when other lights stop showing signs of life on this battery. But it has quite a noticeable PWM, some people find it annoying

Looking forward to your test!!

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

There have not been updates on how the step downs occur and we don't have plans to change from a lumen output driven model to power driven. We do have plans to eventually have an option in the options menu that would allow the end user to change the step downs from the visible step down that it has now, to a ramping one that would not be noticeable to the end user... it would be stepping down but it would do it gradually so you wouldn't notice... we want that to be an option so the end user can decide what they want.
As I am sure you are aware, HDS isn't now nor has ever been in the lumen wars. My personal opinion is that if you are using an HDS on max most of the time, you are probably served better with a different light. Running the HDS on lower outputs, even just on 21 or 22 makes a huge difference in runtime with not a lot of difference in the perceived output. In the last year of carrying my 16350 HDS at work, I think I have charged the battery about 3 times... but I always turn it on dim and then ramp it up to just where I need it, almost never hitting max.
Lot's of tools out there for seeing in the dark and it may not be the best tool for your particular use though we have tried to make it as versatile as we can.

 

[gurdygurds]

There have not been updates on how the step downs occur and we don't have plans to change from a lumen output driven model to power driven. We do have plans to eventually have an option in the options menu that would allow the end user to change the step downs from the visible step down that it has now, to a ramping one that would not be noticeable to the end user... it would be stepping down but it would do it gradually so you wouldn't notice... we want that to be an option so the end user can decide what they want.
As I am sure you are aware, HDS isn't now nor has ever been in the lumen wars. My personal opinion is that if you are using an HDS on max most of the time, you are probably served better with a different light. Running the HDS on lower outputs, even just on 21 or 22 makes a huge difference in runtime with not a lot of difference in the perceived output. In the last year of carrying my 16350 HDS at work, I think I have charged the battery about 3 times... but I always turn it on dim and then ramp it up to just where I need it, almost never hitting max.
Lot's of tools out there for seeing in the dark and it may not be the best tool for your particular use though we have tried to make it as versatile as we can.

@Hogokansatsukan PLEASE…..for the love of rum and touching the bare led and reflector with dirty fingers……please can we get a single AA HDS light?

 

[dc38]

There have not been updates on how the step downs occur and we don't have plans to change from a lumen output driven model to power driven. We do have plans to eventually have an option in the options menu that would allow the end user to change the step downs from the visible step down that it has now, to a ramping one that would not be noticeable to the end user... it would be stepping down but it would do it gradually so you wouldn't notice... we want that to be an option so the end user can decide what they want.
As I am sure you are aware, HDS isn't now nor has ever been in the lumen wars. My personal opinion is that if you are using an HDS on max most of the time, you are probably served better with a different light. Running the HDS on lower outputs, even just on 21 or 22 makes a huge difference in runtime with not a lot of difference in the perceived output. In the last year of carrying my 16350 HDS at work, I think I have charged the battery about 3 times... but I always turn it on dim and then ramp it up to just where I need it, almost never hitting max.
Lot's of tools out there for seeing in the dark and it may not be the best tool for your particular use though we have tried to make it as versatile as we can.

That's a nice pew.

And I agree with you, it's not always about the lumens, but rather how they're applied. I'm just hoping that if the end user absolutely must run a light on sustained max for any given amount of time, then the optional light behavior may be made available for the user to program/select, as you've mentioned.

The same way we typically don't full throttle in a residential area, we typically don't need a nuclear level radiance from our lights...but the minimally perceptible option might be a good compromise.

Out of curiosity, what was the basis for 50 lumens being considered "tactical"? A floody 50 lumens is hardly tactical, after all...

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

50 lumens was "tactically bright" back in the day of incandescent lights where a particular flashlight company pushed that.

 

[dc38]

50 lumens was "tactically bright" back in the day of incandescent lights where a particular flashlight company pushed that.

Lol...i thought so...

**so, without having looked into it, could you implement a super throwy LED? Someone could easily fashion a diffuser cap to emulate the current HDS beam profile, and then remove it to get tactical lux if necessary..

 

[Rossymeister]

Lol...i thought so...

**so, without having looked into it, could you implement a super throwy LED? Someone could easily fashion a diffuser cap to emulate the current HDS beam profile, and then remove it to get tactical lux if necessary.

You got me curious, i wonder if anyone has ever put a TIR optic in one of these?

Id like to see a multipack option of the replacement rubber buttons on the store.

 

[dc38]

That looks like the closest thing for now..

W

Thread 'HDS SDR50 with a Prometheus Slate Green Aspheric Lens (In the interest of science)'

Dec 29, 2020

HDS SDR50 with a Prometheus Slate Green Aspheric "Window":


My hand painted white enameled reflector...


Slate-Blue Aspheric Lens on white painted reflector
2 extra O-rings and a Prometheus blue
O-ring all needed to take-up space to press, center and
secure the lens. Gently hand tight.


The hideous white-wall beam-shot at 4'...
However, in the woods this
throws like a champ. I think 90%
goes way down range and 10% is very
useful spill to my toes. The projection of the
LED die is much less noticeable at distance.
Actually...

• wweiss
• Replies: 11
• Forum: HDS

 

[desert.snake]

I put a new Cree XP-P in the T3 convoy, the beam became much denser. I think you can get a good throw here too, if put in an XP-P. It really has a small crystal. I also remember a guy here making a turbo head for HDS (big reflector + big bezel), I can't find it right away, but they were great!! I regret that I didn't manage to take at least 1 then

About batteries and high level. I have this battery. It is almost dead. On level 24 NLT it works for about 1 minute before it starts to decrease due to discharge, on the Clicky Golden Dragon 120 lm it works for about 10 minutes before decreasing, but it lasts me for 1.5-2 weeks, because I rarely light at maximum, mainly levels 1-7-14 are used. She may be making sounds like "finish me off, someone, end this agony" but I'm trying to prolong her life as long as possible

 

[dc38]

I put a new Cree XP-P in the T3 convoy, the beam became much denser. I think you can get a good throw here too, if put in an XP-P. It really has a small crystal. I also remember a guy here making a turbo head for HDS (big reflector + big bezel), I can't find it right away, but they were great!! I regret that I didn't manage to take at least 1 then

About batteries and high level. I have this battery. It is almost dead. On level 24 NLT it works for about 1 minute before it starts to decrease due to discharge, on the Clicky Golden Dragon 120 lm it works for about 10 minutes before decreasing, but it lasts me for 1.5-2 weeks, because I rarely light at maximum, mainly levels 1-7-14 are used. She may be making sounds like "finish me off, someone, end this agony" but I'm trying to prolong her life as long as possible
View attachment 76568

If you start hearing coil whine it might be time to retire the cell...

 

[ironhorse]

There have not been updates on how the step downs occur and we don't have plans to change from a lumen output driven model to power driven. We do have plans to eventually have an option in the options menu that would allow the end user to change the step downs from the visible step down that it has now, to a ramping one that would not be noticeable to the end user... it would be stepping down but it would do it gradually so you wouldn't notice... we want that to be an option so the end user can decide what they want.
As I am sure you are aware, HDS isn't now nor has ever been in the lumen wars. My personal opinion is that if you are using an HDS on max most of the time, you are probably served better with a different light. Running the HDS on lower outputs, even just on 21 or 22 makes a huge difference in runtime with not a lot of difference in the perceived output. In the last year of carrying my 16350 HDS at work, I think I have charged the battery about 3 times... but I always turn it on dim and then ramp it up to just where I need it, almost never hitting max.
Lot's of tools out there for seeing in the dark and it may not be the best tool for your particular use though we have tried to make it as versatile as we can.

What is that flat panel light?

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

Photon Phreaks made the HDSRB turbo head that replaced the HDS bezel and turned the light into an excellent thrower. Probably the best accessory ever made for the HDS… at least a close tie with the guy who made the holsters that held a spare battery… cough cough.
The panel light is an Elecom Nestout Flash-1 that attaches to their battery banks… great camping flood light. I'll get a better photo later tonight. I'm actually at HDS right now.

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

Oh, the next generation HDS (please don't hold your breath as this is a few years down the road) will be standard with an 18500 tube with spacers to take a CR123 or a AA.
We have been busy getting things all moved in house for the last year and have also been working on a completely different project as well. Just not enough hours in the day.