HDS SYSTEMS:mounting holes yes/no?

[fyrstormer]

Ah, the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. Yes, if HDS started integrating every whimsical idea every customer thought of, the product would become a hopeless, useless, unreliable kludge of bad design decisions very quickly. But we're talking about one single modification, which has been requested by many users, since the product was first introduced. That seems like an entirely reasonable benchmark for whether an idea should be considered.

 

[usdiver]

I've read in more than one place that Henry says that won't work. This specimen certainly appears to work, but I suspect that Henry must have other reasons. I wonder if it's a strength issue?

The design looks good and it could work but that clip option for me is a no go and the same goes for the clip around the reflector either head side or lens side simply due to strength. You also have the risk of changing a design for a "few" people and then ruining sales for many others including new comers.

I ve measured that screw and those threads aren't long, and they are fine threads. Apart from that build the tail wall thicker to accommodate but then that's another can of worms. Not saying it's a bad idea but at the same time I think just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[peter yetman]

Ah, the "slippery slope" logical fallacy.

My life is a logical fallacy - it's my raison d'etre.
P

 

[fyrstormer]

The design looks good and it could work but that clip option for me is a no go and the same goes for the clip around the reflector either head side or lens side simply due to strength. You also have the risk of changing a design for a "few" people and then ruining sales for many others including new comers.

If someone doesn't want the clip, they can simply remove it. A good comparison is pocket knives. Lots of them come with clips. People who don't want the clips (such as myself, because I buy small knives that can sit comfortably in the bottom of my pocket) simply remove them.

Since we're talking about "nerds" who care about minutiae that normal people don't care about, I think it's worth mentioning that empty screw holes definitely fall into that category. Most people would see a removable clip as something they can use or remove as they see fit. It's only the "flashlight nerds" who will care about the empty screw holes left behind.

I've measured that screw and those threads aren't long, and they are fine threads. Apart from that build the tail wall thicker to accommodate but then that's another can of worms. Not saying it's a bad idea but at the same time I think just because you can doesn't mean you should.

You are of course correct that screws the size of the original stopper screw would be far too weak to hold a pocket clip securely. That's why the clip screws I used are larger than the original stopper screw. Mine are 2.5mm diameter. I will probably replace them with slightly longer screws in the near future, for that extra little bit of security, but the diameter is more than sufficient for the forces the pocket clip itself can withstand.

If you need to know whether screws that are only slightly larger would be sufficiently strong, take a look at McGizmo's pocket clips. Has anyone ever broken the mounting screws on their McGizmo clip? I sure haven't.

 

[Random Dan]

If we're talking about modifying the tube design then extra material could be added for screw holes, like on Zebralights. That would also allow a deep carry clip.

I know it won't happen soon at HDS speeds but an 18350 rotary tube with a clip like in the following picture would push the rotary to perfection in my opinion.

Here are some more pics of custom deep carry titanium clips for you guys. I am definitely considering ordering one to try on my SC64's.

 

[usdiver]

If someone doesn't want the clip, they can simply remove it. A good comparison is pocket knives. Lots of them come with clips. People who don't want the clips (such as myself, because I buy small knives that can sit comfortably in the bottom of my pocket) simply remove them.

Since we're talking about "nerds" who care about minutiae that normal people don't care about, I think it's worth mentioning that empty screw holes definitely fall into that category. Most people would see a removable clip as something they can use or remove as they see fit. It's only the "flashlight nerds" who will care about the empty screw holes left behind.

You are of course correct that screws the size of the original stopper screw would be far too weak to hold a pocket clip securely. That's why the clip screws I used are larger than the original stopper screw. Mine are 2.5mm diameter. I will probably replace them with slightly longer screws in the near future, for that extra little bit of security, but the diameter is more than sufficient for the forces the pocket clip itself can withstand.

If you need to know whether screws that are only slightly larger would be sufficiently strong, take a look at McGizmo's pocket clips. Has anyone ever broken the mounting screws on their McGizmo clip? I sure haven't.

I haven't had a McGizmo but very good point.

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

I'll bring up a few issue to ponder on...
Let's say a company has a large stock of Rotary 123 battery tubes because running out just sucks (18650 Rotary anyone? By the way, the purchase order for those 18650 Rotary tubes went out in... Ju-freakin'-ly. But don't get me started on that!)
So, if there is a large stock of 123 Rotary tubes, they won't get sent out for rework.

Could they be incorporated into the next batch? Depends on what the "next batch" is going to be. There may not even be a screw stop in the next HDS Rotary (speculate all you want). The tail underwent an upgrade at the end of this last year 2018... wasn't published. Will do a formal announcement later, but some of you already have that new tail in your hands. Internal difference so looking at the outside isn't going to help figure it out. DO NOT TAKE IT APART!!!!!

If HDS makes it, HDS has to warranty it. If Henry doesn't think it is strong enough, he isn't going to do it. Yes, his version of "strong" is a bit different than most folks.

We also deal with the "lowest common denominator". Let me give you an example. Someone recently didn't like the "clicky" noise in their tail. The tail WAS having some issues i.e. flashing when adjusting the Rotary dial. As we know, because we are all intelligent, if the Rotary function has an issue, it is a pretty simple matter to use the Rotary as a "Clicky". Well, instead of doing this, said individual decided to completely take the tail apart, breaking off internal pieces, and rendering the light totally nonfunctional. After destroying the internals in the tail, they then sent an email to HDS stating how it wasn't built well, and that HDS should just send them another tail and in fact, upgrade them to an 18650 tail for their trouble. This is just some of the stupidity and arrogance that HDS gets to deal with occasionally. Yes, they even sent pictures of the damage they did. A monkey with a hammer would have done a better job. So, when designing and building things at HDS, Henry doesn't want people to take things apart. He doesn't want them even using a screwdriver with anything that could be stripped... why? Because Henry in his bizarre and sometimes highly annoying way... he still warranties the lights after people have done grossly stupid things to them. Yes, he is fixing said dumbasses light under warranty, even though the warranty specifically does NOT cover damage and modding... This is where Henry and I argue. Be glad Henry has the deciding vote on this.

So, these things all come into play when any new design is being looked at. What will it take to incorporate it? Can it be done with current stock? How many monkeys with hammers will break it? Does the monkey need a hammer to break it? Does it add strength or weakness to the design (if it doesn't add strength, it won't happen).

As I have said many times in the past, the Universal Clip is one fugly mother... but it is strong as hell and you can't damage your light with it. Would I like a better solution? Yes. We just haven't found one that HDS will approve as of yet.

 

[nbp]

So if I can read between the lines and the reason clip holes were removed was that tons of people were cross threading them and ruining the holes and expecting Henry to fix them, for example, that would be a good argument and certainly easier to swallow than just "people didn't like them". Appreciate all the input Hogo. Hopefully Henry doesn't take our whining too personally. If we didn't love his lights we wouldn't bother fussing over the little details!

 

[thermal guy]

So if I can read between the lines and the reason clip holes were removed was that tons of people were cross threading them and ruining the holes and expecting Henry to fix them, for example, that would be a good argument and certainly easier to swallow than just "people didn't like them". Appreciate all the input Hogo. Hopefully Henry doesn't take our whining too personally. If we didn't love his lights we wouldn't bother fussing over the little details!

If that was the Case then no offense but those that did it are not the brightest color in the Crayola family! Come on now.and ya great of Henry to warranty that stuff but he really shouldn't of

 

[thermal guy]

But yes I would like to know the reasons behind people not liking them as well. My gut is people are collecting these lights and not using them. I would imagine that when they take them down off the shelf to dust them off there dusting cloth we're getting caught in the holes. Maybe 🤔😄😄😄😄

 

[bigburly912]

I can't believe so many people worry about pocket clips. I am in the woods more than most people are in their homes and I haven't lost an HDS yet wether I was pocket carrying or in my Thor's holsters. To each his own but I have lost more stuff with pocket clips than without. RIP Tool, Malkoff, Spyderco Delicax2. [emoji17]

 

[emarkd]

My gut is people are collecting these lights and not using them.

The two are not mutually exclusive. I have more HDS lights than I need, but also less than I want. I use my HDS lights, but I also admire them.

To each his own but I have lost more stuff with pocket clips than without.

For everyone who tells a story like this, there are folks like me who never lose things that are pocket-clipped. I carry at least 3 pocket-clipped items every single day of my life -- knife, light and pen, sometimes supplemented with a multitool, and my keys have a clip/dangler thing on them too. I've lost exactly one clipped item in my entire life, a pocketknife, and I knew the clip had gotten loose and had neglected to tighten it until it was too late. My fault. So honestly I don't understand how all you folks are losing your clipped items, unless you live in a bad neighborhood and are being constantly pick-pocketed. *shrug*

However, that just points out how choice is a good thing. Whether you or I find clips secure and reliable or not, the bottom line is that we should be doing what we want to do, and what we're comfortable with. I want clips, you don't. I'm glad we both have the option, even if its not an ideal clip situation. It works for me, even if HDS makes no changes at all going forward.

 

[fyrstormer]

For everyone who tells a story like this, there are folks like me who never lose things that are pocket-clipped. I carry at least 3 pocket-clipped items every single day of my life -- knife, light and pen, sometimes supplemented with a multitool, and my keys have a clip/dangler thing on them too. I've lost exactly one clipped item in my entire life, a pocketknife, and I knew the clip had gotten loose and had neglected to tighten it until it was too late. My fault. So honestly I don't understand how all you folks are losing your clipped items, unless you live in a bad neighborhood and are being constantly pick-pocketed. *shrug*

I suspect that people who lose pocket-clipped items are clipping them outside their pockets instead of inside their pockets. It never occurred to me to clip something outside my pocket until I posted a picture of my pocket with a flashlight clipped inside it, and someone replied what a great idea it was to clip my flashlight inside my pocket. I was quite taken-aback. Why would I clip something outside my pocket? That would just be asking to lose it. But apparently some people do that anyway.

We also deal with the "lowest common denominator". Let me give you an example. Someone recently didn't like the "clicky" noise in their tail. The tail WAS having some issues i.e. flashing when adjusting the Rotary dial. As we know, because we are all intelligent, if the Rotary function has an issue, it is a pretty simple matter to use the Rotary as a "Clicky". Well, instead of doing this, said individual decided to completely take the tail apart, breaking off internal pieces, and rendering the light totally nonfunctional. After destroying the internals in the tail, they then sent an email to HDS stating how it wasn't built well, and that HDS should just send them another tail and in fact, upgrade them to an 18650 tail for their trouble. This is just some of the stupidity and arrogance that HDS gets to deal with occasionally. Yes, they even sent pictures of the damage they did. A monkey with a hammer would have done a better job. So, when designing and building things at HDS, Henry doesn't want people to take things apart. He doesn't want them even using a screwdriver with anything that could be stripped... why? Because Henry in his bizarre and sometimes highly annoying way... he still warranties the lights after people have done grossly stupid things to them. Yes, he is fixing said dumbasses light under warranty, even though the warranty specifically does NOT cover damage and modding... This is where Henry and I argue. Be glad Henry has the deciding vote on this.

It sounds like Henry is a nice guy in his own way -- perhaps too nice for his own good. If a customer did that kind of damage to a product I made, and then claimed that the damage was the result of me not building it well enough, I would assume they were trying to guilt-trip me into giving them a free replacement they didn't deserve, and I wouldn't do business with that customer anymore. I, for one, have too strong a sense of shame to be able to convince someone they built something badly when I know perfectly well I broke it while I was doing something stupid. That weighed heavily on my mind as I was drilling holes into my HDS Rotary, in fact. "What will I do if I mess-up and drill a hole through something important? I can't very well try to return it for repairs after drilling holes in it. I guess I'll have to swallow my shame and buy another and not mess with it next time." Fortunately the mod went well.

If the next iteration of the HDS Rotary won't have a stopper screw, but instead have an internal stopper (or none at all), then that's one less reason why a pocket clip couldn't be attached just under the control dial. There would no longer be an external stopper that the clip could potentially interfere with.

So, these things all come into play when any new design is being looked at. What will it take to incorporate it? Can it be done with current stock? How many monkeys with hammers will break it? Does the monkey need a hammer to break it? Does it add strength or weakness to the design (if it doesn't add strength, it won't happen).

It's true that drilling holes into the body of the flashlight will not add strength. But it does add functionality. Does that count for anything? Presumably it must, since the HDS Rotary wouldn't exist otherwise.

Could pocket clips be added to current stock? Well, obviously not without doing some minor rework to enlarge the existing stopper-screw hole and add a second hole next to it. But it could be done pretty quickly as a batch, if the will existed. I mean, operating a drill-press is pretty much the first thing a machinist learns to do.

 

[Modernflame]

But yes I would like to know the reasons behind people not liking them as well. My gut is people are collecting these lights and not using them.

The two are not mutually exclusive. I have more HDS lights than I need, but also less than I want. I use my HDS lights, but I also admire them.

:twothumbs

 

[d13avo]

Just to be clear, the mounting position of my bezel-down clip doesn't block any of the 24 modes. I checked before I installed the clip; there is a large enough gap between Mode 24 and Mode 1 to accommodate the width of a McGizmo clip. (or something similar -- I opted for a different brand that was shorter and more flexible.) The clip takes the place of the stopper screw (and I plugged the hole with epoxy afterwards), so the clip prevents the dial from being able to spin endlessly. I suppose some people might consider it an advantage to be able to rotate the dial directly from the brightest mode to the dimmest, and thus consider the installation of a clip to be a loss of functionality, but I am not one of those people.

The search for a solution for a Rotary bezel down carry has been Found!

I suggest you show Henry the photo, so he can begin to let go of past trauma, and embrace a truly elegant solution.

I had this exact same idea for a clip on the rotary and suggested it on HDS Systems EDC: Suggestions #1, my post was #260 but if I remember correctly Dan spoke to Henry and it was not a go ahead.

 

[jon_slider]

found another HDS light retrofitted with a McGizmo clip (pic is a link to original CPF thread)

I just just wanted to mention that the Twisty 85-TR is probably the most useful light I've ever owned. I've installed a McGizmo clip on it. I've deep-pocket carried this light for years and it still looks great. The thing that I like the most is that it doesn't accidentally turn on in my pocket. The red LED is ideal for getting going in the AM without waking the family. I just hope that Henry will produce another Twisty some day, ideally in titanium.

I can understand Henry not wanting to modify existing inventory.

 

[tech25]

Sounds like time for a group buy. 18350 rotary bodies with the clip attached to the stop screw. I read somewhere that Hogo loves to organize and run group buys... :devil:

 

[scout24]

Maybe everyone who likes Fyrstormer's solution needs to PM him and guilt him into offering the clip holes as a service? 😁 :nana:

 

[fyrstormer]

Buy me a drill press (EDIT: and a babysitter) and then we'll talk.

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

Sounds like time for a group buy. 18350 rotary bodies with the clip attached to the stop screw. I read somewhere that Hogo loves to organize and run group buys... :devil:

Maybe everyone who likes Fyrstormer's solution needs to PM him and guilt him into offering the clip holes as a service?  :nana:

Perfect solution.