Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreviews

Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

There's a bit of a difference between 'using alkalines will void the warranty' and 'using alkalines could result in serious personal injury.'
As far as I'm aware, Heliotek is issuing the first varity of warning and not the latter.
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

From the HTE-1 instructions on changing batteries:

"....unscrew the battery case from the flashlight head with a counter clockwise twist slowly so that any pressure buildup is released safely...."

Probably good instructions for ANY dive rated light!
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

Hello enLIGHTenment,

Here is the full text of the warning from the operating instructions:

Battery Installation: WARNING! Never install mixed new and used batteries or mix another brand or type of battery with the Energizer® L91 batteries. Never install damaged batteries. Use only new undamaged and undischarged Energizer® L91 AA Lithium batteries in this flashlight. The use of other types voids the warranty and may be dangerous to the user for the following reasons.

1) Under normal operation the Energizer® L91 does not emit gas or corrosive liquid.

2) The Energizer® L91 has two internal safety devices which are progressive as temperature increases: a thermal switch which limits the current and a pressure relief vent. The operating temperature of the pressure relief vent of the Energizer® L91 is greater than that of the emergency vent on the flashlight, so that should the flashlight be exposed to temperatures greater than 100°C (212°F) pressure build-up is safely released.

3) The Energizer® L91's are the only power source on which the flashlight will run at 95% of full brightness for 6 to 8 hours.

4) The light weight Energizer® L91 lithium batteries are necessary for the flashlight to float.

5) The flashlight can safely operate from -40°C to +46°C (-40°F to +115°F), only on Energizer® L91 lithium batteries.


That suggests to me that not only is it safer to run only Lithium L91 cells, but you also get better performance from them as well.

Tom
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

I think the only place to get them is from Heliotek themselves. Link is on the review page.
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

[ QUOTE ]
keithhr said:
any chance of seeing what it actually looks like with its beam directed at something outside in the night?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are some shots of my shed at night at 50 feet:

htecomp3.jpg
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

Ah ... shed-shots /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ... thanx /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
bernie
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

Thanks, Sean! I love it when people take things off my plate! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

A comment on this text about L91 usage in the Heliotek, if I may...

I realize this is my first posting here, and I would not want to come off sounding abusive or even mean-spirited, but I do take some issues with Heliotek's statements (as worded) and the assumed meaning of them. My purpose is to engage those who know batteries darned well, as opposed to lights. Further, my interest is in trying to determine just what REALLY can be used, safely, in the Heliotek, perhaps providing reduced cost of operation as well as outright usability when L91 Energizers can't be found...

For safety concerns, Heliotek's statements numbers 3 and 4 simply do not apply. Those are benefit statements, not saftey statements.

As to the other 3 statements...

1. Not emitting gas or fluid: First, just what is "normal operation?" It's undefined in this statement. Does it mean 30 minutes of use, then an hour of "off" to let the thing rest before using it again? Does it mean something else? I can name any number of batteries, L91, lithium and otherwise, that do not emit gas or fluid under SOMEBODY'S defintion of "normal use." The point is well taken and valid, but unfortunately, inconclusive.

2. The thermal governors of the L91 are news to me. I'll take the statement as true, even though the Energizer site offers no comment at all about this (as far as I could find). Let's take it as a given. Two questions come to mind. First, is this behavior found ONLY in the L91; the statement makes no claims that this is so. Second, and I mean, come on, folks -- 212 degrees?!? Like you or I are really going to be working in a 212 environment, and we need protection from explosion in that case. We'd all of us be dead before the temperature reached 140. Whether it's true or not, the NEED for this behavior in a battery at 212 degrees seems far, far beyond the point. It rather sounds like marketing hype to me.

5. Only L91 permits safe operation in the given range. OK, first, define safe. Save from what? Explosions? Corrosion? Emitting a level of light that Heliotek deems "safe" if you find yourself in a blackout? Others here have already used alkalines in their tests on this light, and other than poor performance (to be expected), nothing was reported as having been unsafe. Further, granting (the very long stretch) that they are correct, how can it REMAIN correct as new battery technology supercedes the L91? For evermore, we are to expect that only L91's can be used, even 5 years from now when certainly much better improvements have been made across the board?

At best, the statement is only as good as the day they published it, IMHO. I'm not on the "inside" of Heliotek's development department, so I can't know for sure, but then again, they aren't delivering their definitions and test results either, are they? I'm guessing here, but such a broad series of statements without details to back them up suggests they tested batteries until they found one they were happy with. Then they stopped. The next question would then be, did they start with safety tests and then determine best performance, or did they find a good performer and then test it for safety? The order of research would determine how many batteries they actually looked at.

Finally, there's the insurance liability question. Can't blame them at all for this concern; some shmuck seriously abuses the light, piling in 123 batteries or something else, and they get burned. Heliotek wouldn't want to get sued over something like that (no one would). The issue, however, raises questions over their only approved battery. Rather than stating the performance characteristics, they simply state a brand and model.

That leaves us owners with a very expensive light, and a a very expensive operating bill to go with it. It also raises the chances we'll find ourselves without the use of the light in the event we need batteries, but L91's aren't available.

I've written to several battery makers, including Energizer, to ask their opinion on Heliotek's statements. I expect Energizer to affirm them (what else would I expect from the company whose products are being endorsed). I also expect the opposite from the competitors, who will assure me their batteries are just as safe.

Somewhere between the answers, when and if I get them, the truth will be found. If there are any independents here, in this forum, who have no allegience to any particular company, I'd very much like to here your thoughts as to why Heliotek is absolutey correct, or conversely, absolutely blowing smoke.

Thanks! (Hope I didn't ruffle any feathers).

Pond Jumper
SCUBA enthusiast
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

Hello Pond Jumper,

Welcome to CPF.

I believe Heliotek is simply giving us the design restraints for their lights. To make this light work, you simply need about 3 volts, so anything that will produce 3 volts will cause the light to work. However, they have designed their system to work with Lithium AA cells. At the time of their research, Energizer was the only game in town. They are currently evaluating the Battery Station cells, and if they pass their scrutiny, Heliotek will add them to their recommended cells for use in this light.

Energizer has some wonderful information listed in their MSDS sheets. I believe the information presented there also applies to other brands as well. Alkaline and NiMh cells give off hydrogen gas during use. These cells are better suited for non sealed use. It appears that Lithium cells do not vent hydrogen during use and are better suited for sealed systems.

Energizer on Alkaline cells:

"Mechanical Containment: If potting or sealing the battery in an airtight or watertight container is required,
consult your Eveready Battery Company representative for precautionary suggestions. Batteries normally evolve hydrogen which, when combined with oxygen from the air, can produce a combustible or explosive mixture unless vented. If such a mixture is present, short circuits, high temperature, or static sparks can cause an ignition.

Do not obstruct safety release vents on batteries. Encapsulation (potting) of batteries will not allow cell venting and can cause high pressure rupture."

Energizer on NiMh cells:

"Mechanical Containment: Never seal or encapsulate nickel metal hydride batteries.

Do not obstruct safety release vents on batteries. Encapsulation (potting) of batteries will not allow cell venting and can cause high pressure rupture."

Energizer on Lithium cells:

"Mechanical Containment: If potting or sealing the battery in an airtight or watertight container is required, consult your Energizer Battery Manufacturing, Inc. representative for precautionary suggestions.

Do not obstruct safety release vents on batteries. Encapsulation of batteries will not allow cell venting and can cause high pressure rupture."

I would conclude from this information that if my design involved a metal battery tube that was sealed, the Lithium cells would be the safest and best choice for use. I think Heliotek is acting very responsibly.

They have not included an absorption system to take care of the hydrogen gas that is released, so they simply state that you should not use cells that release hydrogen gas in their sealed light.

As far as the temperature comments, I wonder what the temperature is inside the flashlight when it is thrown on the dash of a car in the desert in full sun… At any rate, the Lithium cells are safe to store and operate at higher temperatures than the other cells.

In bright sunlight, drop something under the seat and a light can come in very handy to find it. Grab the hot light off the dash and you have a high temperature operation of the light. Since the light has a coating of polymer, you will not notice the high temperature of the battery tube.

I am sure some people will use other cells in their lights, but Heliotek can not endorse that. Nor should they. This light was designed around the Lithium cell which gives great performance and allows for safe operation in a very wide variety of conditions.

Tom
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

OK, I heard back from Energizer, DuraCell and Battery Station on the safety issues quoted by Heliotek. As expected, Energizer was quite in support of their statements, while DuraCell and Battery Station were cautiously skeptical. In addition, these latter two cited Energizer making threatening phone calls of litigation for violation of their patents, which DuraCell and Battery Station affirm do not exist.

Energizer and DuraCell sent me a MSDS and technology report on their lithium and NiMH batteries. Battery Station did not send reports for any kind of battery, so I will leave them out of the following. Here's what I discovered:

The thermal governors exist in both brands, operating in the same rated temperature range. The useful temperature range is identical. The voltage and mAh are identical. The chemical structure is a bit different in the lithium compound.

If there is a noticable difference, it is in the mechanics of the pressure relief system. Energizer uses a ball and leaf spring, which will, if necessary, raise the edges of the positive end of the batter to allow gas/fluid to escape until pressure is adequately reduced. Then it seals itself again.

DuraCell, however, uses a thin plastic disc under the anode, and the anode itself has a "tooth" that is bent inwards, pointing at this plastic disc. If pressure builds too high, the disc rises, pushes against the "tooth" and it is punctured. Pressure is thus relieved, but the puncture is permenant. All gas and fluid will leak from the battery as it will not reseal itself.

Now, with that said, let us understand that any pressure venting would occur at temperatures above boiling point. The stated maximum operating temp of the Heliotek is 115F. The stated warranty is voided if the light is exposed to temperatures over 150F. The batteries carry a warning not to exposed them above 140F.

I therefore conclude, and this is my own judgement for my own light and my own safety, that DuraCell is a viable alternative. Given I won't be standing in a boiling cauldron at night (at least I hope I won't), and given that in hot Texas sun a car's interior can reach 180F and therefore I would NEVER leave ANY battery-powered device in my car, I see no reason I can't use DuraCell if they should offer a better price at any given moment.

Now, as to NiMH, something very, very interesting turned up in both the reports from Energizer and DuraCell. As it turns out, while their initial voltage is nominally 1.25 volts, their power delivery graph is the same shape as both companies' lithiums. In fact, both reports clearly state this in words.

Also, both reports state the pressure venting characteristics are identical to their lithium batteries.

Also, both state a maximum temperature exposure of 140F for both their lithiums and their NiMH.

NiMH has one caution that does not exist in the lithium documents, and that is related to hydrogen production.

I had long known that NiMH does NOT, repeat, does NOT produce hydrogen during its normal use of serving energy. Quite the opposite, in fact; hydrogen is produced, and then absorbed into the internal components, during CHARGING. During discharge, the hydrogen is desorbed and mixes with the peroxide, turning into water.

What I did not know was this one exception to the above, and only if the user makes this mistake. All batteries in the unit, if NiMH is used at all, must be NiMH. Further, all batteries must be of the same capacity in mHa (e.g., all should be 1800, or 2000, or 2300 mHa). A violation of this arrangement COULD LEAD TO SELF-OVER-CHARGING INSIDE THE UNIT, AND THEREFORE LEAD TO THE LEAKAGE OF HYDROGEN GAS OR TO AN EXPLOSION.

The reason is quite simple, now that I think on it. If you place an 1800 and 2300 battery together, the potential in the 2300 is going to want to flow to the 1800. The 1800 simply cannot hold any more than 1800. In chemical terms, it means that the water is being turned into peroxide, and the free atom of hydrogen simply cannot be absorbed into the nickle alloy. It remains free, and as more and more hydrogen is produced, pressure builds up. The 2300 will continue to discharge until it reaches 1800 mHa, and the 1800 will continue to build-up hydrogen gas. If enough gas is built up, leakage or explosion occurs.

However, with two 1800 or two 2300, the problem does not occur, even if one battery is not as well charged as the other. Charging inside the light might take place, but the lesser-charged battery will have no problem absorbing any free hydrogen. The net result is, if given a few hours to settle down, both batteries equal-out to an identical charge, which is something less than full charge.

So I again conclude that, at least for Energizer and DuraCell, NiMH is perfectly safe to use. I had not known about the potential for these batteries to charge each other inside a device, but given the technical explantion, I must leave it up to me to be careful about using the same mHa batteries. And again, this is my own opinion about my own Heliotek and my own safety.

One final comment on the pressure relief of NiMH; this, too, occurs above the boiling point. This, too, would seem to be rather rediculous in a statement about useful ranges of temperature. However, just so everyone is aware of the risk...

Charging produces heat. Quite a bit, actually. A slow charger may lead you to believe it does not, but in fact, the heat being produced is escaping to the atmosphere, and the batteries will feel cool to the touch. If you use a rapid charger, you can feel how warm the batteries are. Therefore, if you're inclined to try NiMH, and also leave this light in your car in the direct sunlight during summer, be aware that the 180F interior temp of your car, plus any accidental charging occuring between the batteries (if you mixed the capacities), COULD CAUSE THE BATTERY TEMPERATURE TO RISE TO THE PRESSURE RELIEF POINT, LEAKING HYDROGEN INTO YOUR LIGHT, AND CREATING A FIRE AND/OR EXPLOSION HAZARD.

Well, those are my finding and my thoughts. Just to make sure I don't get sued by someone claiming I TOLD them to use something other than Energizer L91 in their Heliotek, let me make it perfectly clear: I am NOT TELLING you to do any such thing. If you choose to use something else, I've given you some technical data on DuraCell lithiums and NiMH from both DuraCell and Energizer to help you reach YOUR OWN conclusions. Whatever you do with this information is, of course, YOUR OWN DESCISION. If you feel something could or will go wrong, then I advise you to stick with Heliotek's claims. If Energizer stops making the L91, then you will have to go back to Heliotek and see if you can get your money back, or convince them to extend their warranty to other batteries.

As for me, I'll be using NiMH on land, and whatever is the cheapest lithium I can find when I'm underwater...

Cheers!
Pond Jumper
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

Hello Pond Jumper,

I find it very interesting that Duracell could send you information on their Lithium AA cell… As far as I know, Duracell does not offer a Lithium AA cell.

The only source for Lithium AA cells, are Energizer and Battery Station. This may change in the future, but that's it for now. When the Heliotek light was developed, only Energizer cells were available.

Duracell does offer a Lithium 123 cell, but it won't fit in the Heliotek battery compartment. I also believe the chemistry is different in the 123 cells vs. the AA cells.

You do not seem to believe Energizers warnings about using NiMh cells in a sealed environment, perhaps you may want to consider what Sanyo says…

Sanyo on NiMh cells:

"DANGER

When Twicell batteries are to be incorporated in equipment or housed within a case, avoid air-tight structures as this may lead to the equipment or case being damaged or may be harmful to users."

Tom
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

good discussion. other than it being off the topic a bit /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

i dont understand a few things, and a few things i do understand, and soo . .

directed more to PONDJUMPER.
why would you want the duracell when according to the data sheets you were reading, when it vents it does so permanentally? the other cells vent then reclose after pressure is releaced, assuming they CAN with any solid leakage.

GENERALLY speaking.
This if course assumes that pressure is EVER vented, which usually happens when charging , generally overcharging,and reverse charging when one CELL is dead, or any charging of a cell by the other cells in the light, or in extreeme heats, or when things go totally ary, which they do(rare).

i thought (i could be wrong about all of it) that releace on any of this stuff only occurs when the pressure rises above what the pressure releces can hold in.

WHICH brings up the A#1 most important point, that i have tried to point out HOW can a pressure releace continue to vent into the atmosphere, when the pressure IN the CONTAINER goes above atmospheric pressure from the battery releace?
this can only happen in 100% sealed lights.
a pressure releace of any of the kinds on these batteries is dependant on the exterior pressure being at a certian level.

if pressure inside the flashlight gets very high, a pressure releace will fail. (IMO)

while that ain't about to happen in a plastic light as much,
SEALED light can hold pressure,
and battery that releaces, will build pressure up in the light container,
when the pressure in the light is at many atmospheres , or many pounds per square inch, the batteries pressure releace is not going to work the SAME. (IMO)

that is what this discussion raised in my mind.

i still think that lithium primary batteries are far less likely to unseal at any rate, and that ni-XXX are unlikely to unseal except when charging. and that ni-XXX are VERY likely to unseal (vent) when OVERcharging . basically when ON the charger.

But we have seen situations where a pressure buildup in lithium primaries , in a sealed light, creates very high pressure.

for my money, i would prefer ni-mhys when lawsuit comes to play, but NOT charging them in a totally sealed light, which is hard to do when you gotta have a power connector.

and Alkalines, and carbon batteries, well they leak /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif and a lot faster than any ni-xxx that i have seen.

Although i HAVE certannly vented ni-xxx (both) during a charge, especially on bad ones. i have never seen venting during a discharge, UNLESS (which could be important) it was already vented on the charger.

then add in WHAT causes reverse charging and charging in a flashlight, and its usually a cell IMBALANCE, with the long life of lithiums your LESS likely to be mixing up poor cells with great cells. with cell specification demands, your less likely to be putting different cells in that are mismatch and imbalanced, so therefore your less likely to incurr any venting.
(logic in insanity)

what causes alkaline leakage, usually DEAD cells, how likely is a lithium going to be a dead cell /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

also hydrogen burns /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif hydrogen AND oxygen love to recombine back into water, when the cells releace gas, it might be hydrogen that is flamable, but its the combination that is explosive. without the oxygen, the hydrogen isnt much threat. i think BOTH hydrogen AND oxygen are vented, making the real problem.

hmm, i should have a conclusion.
the real problems seem to be bad, dead, overcharged, damaged, or destroyed, mismatched cells, of any type, not whos cell has the worlds best protection.
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

Thanks, Silver Fox,

You are correct. I did receive materials informaion from DuraCell that was for a lithium battery other than an AA size. So scratch the comparisons between lithiums; if only Energizer chemistry and mechanics can be known, comparing them to other AA lithiums with unknown properties is no comparison at all.

To All:

I do most humbly apologize for pressing the point. I took the position similar to Chrysler telling me I could only use Exxon 91 octane in my new Pacifica, and only Exxon, otherwise my 5 year warranty would be voided (Chrysler didn't tell me that, by-the-way; I'm using it as an example). If there's a reason for limiting the fuel brand and model to the exclusion of everything else, as a customer, I would expect to know why. What does Exxon add to their 91 octane gas (or perhaps, NOT add) that makes it so special? If the claim against warranty is to be made to the exclusion of all others, it should be backed up by data.

Again, I apologize for making this an issue here. It's not only the wrong forum for it, but also the wrong web site. My questions should have been taken to a battery or chemistry web site.

I've heard from someone at Heliotek. I should have realized they could look at my profile here and get my name and particulars, but it slipped my mind. I have remedied that by removing unrequired info from my profile here.

The point is, I have an interest in bowing out of this thread. I regret I started it. I'll just lurk for awhile and read reviews of this and other lights. I would advise my two prior posts in this thread be totally ignored, or deleted, if possible. Please exuse my lack of judgement.

Frisco
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

Hello Frisco,

There is no need to back out, delete, or in any other way alter what you have said. We have all asked very similar questions and it causes us to take the time to check these things out.

I agree that this discussion would have been better over in the battery forum, but being a bit off topic has never stopped us before. Doug (and others) are probably wondering about the same things you are. Thank you Doug for letting us carry on here...

I have had extended conversations with Heliotek and understand their design considerations. I also have a rudimentary understanding of the basic battery chemistries. I have presented this information as I understand it. I am not a spokesperson for Heliotek and would expect them to correct me if I have presented inaccurate information.

It is unfortunate that Energizer has the market on Lithium AA's. I would love to see Duracell and Ray O Vac offer some as well. Battery Station has been the first to offer competition and maybe the other manufacturers will follow suit.

It is my humble opinion that if you remove the O ring from the battery tube on your Heliotek light, it would no longer be "sealed" and the use of NiMh cells would not be a concern.

I apologize if I offended you in any way. My intent was simply to alert you to the dangers that exist when using NiMh (or to am minor extent Alkaline) cells in a sealed container.

Tom
 
Re: Heliotek HTE-1 rev.2 review - flashlightreview

"Thank you Doug for letting us carry on here..."

No problem, but let's wrap it up, OK?
 
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